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-   -   Took the 581 Stainless 5.56 to the range today. (http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=210560)

imarangemaster 07-22-2020 16:24

Took the 581 Stainless 5.56 to the range today.
 
Well, mixed results....

My Ruger 10 round mag was a bust. Continuously jammed using the 10 rounder. This was the first time I used it. Got it on eBay without package. Switched to a Ruger factory 20 and it fed perfect for about 150 rounds....

Next, it did not like my 77 grain handloads. Not consistent at all. While some 1/9 will like it, this one didn't 4-5 MOA at best. Even tried my 2.5x Bushnell. Best was about 1" to 1.5" at 25 yards when sighting in. I'll have to try some MK 262 MOD 1 factory next time.

Federal Lake City M193 - AWESOME! One ragged hole at 25 yards with both the 2.5x Bushnell, and almost as good when I battle sighted with iron sights. I annihilated clay pigeons on the berm at 75 and 100 yards with iron sights. Even annihilated pieces of clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm.

I guess I will stick with the 55 grain 5.56 for for now.... Good thing I have a lot of it. 1,000 rounds of factory and about 500-600 of 55 grain FMFBT reloads with IMR 4064.:D

Hellgate 07-22-2020 21:28

L C brass is my favorite for reloading once it is all prepped.

40nascar 07-22-2020 21:50

Too bad you sold the 1:7 twist barreled mini. They don't come along everyday. But yes, the 181+ series mini with the 1:10 twist barrels and the more modern 1:9 twist barrel mini 14's are famous for shooting M193 very well.
Also ridiculous now that 5.56/ .223 ammo sells for 50c or more per round. I'm getting happier by the day that i took your advice and picked up a 5804 mini 30 ( and also a 5803).

potato chip 07-24-2020 16:21

Are you sure it was the mag?

Maybe a stronger wolf spring will solve the problem.

kwg020 07-24-2020 20:03

I have a 10 round Ruger mag that is giving me problems. I want to put a new spring in it.

kwg

imarangemaster 07-24-2020 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato chip (Post 1643826)
Are you sure it was the mag?

Maybe a stronger wolf spring will solve the problem.

Yep. Started with the 10 rounder, and jammed 4 out of 5 shots no matter what ammo. Prior shooting outings, I had used Ruger factory 20s and 30s, and Tapco 30s for 300-400 rounds with zero malfunctions, with a wide mix of ammo. As soon as I tried the 10 rounder for the first time, it was a serious problem. Switched to a Ruger factory 20 (and a 30) and again had zero malfunctions.

slam-man 07-24-2020 22:14

With the 10 round Ruger mag I replaced the factory spring with an ar15 spring cut to one more turn. The extra turn makes up for the goose neck at the top of the factory spring which I believe is the problem. The follower is now supported in the front much like the Ruger 5 round mag.

Try one. It fixed all four of my 10 round mags.

slam-man 07-24-2020 23:04

Just to be clear. I am discussing Ruger 10 round mini 14 mags not mini 30 mags.
With the mini 30 10 round mags the problem is not the spring. The problem sometimes is the bottom of the spring moves forward and follower tilts back enough for the bolt to override the last few rounds. My fix is pushing the spring to the rear with a thin screwdriver down the front of the follower. When I see the rear loop of the spring thru the hole in the bottom plate, I put an 8-32 x 1/4 inch nylon screw in the hole. The screw will keep the spring from sliding toward the front. The screw is easy to remove before disassembly.
I have not found any such problems with either 5 or 20 round mags for the mini 14 or 30. The 10 round mags seem like not well thought out after thoughts.
My fixes work for me. If anyone else has other solutions I am open new ideas.

RIBob 07-25-2020 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by slam-man (Post 1643920)
Just to be clear. I am discussing Ruger 10 round mini 14 mags not mini 30 mags.
With the mini 30 10 round mags the problem is not the spring. The problem sometimes is the bottom of the spring moves forward and follower tilts back enough for the bolt to override the last few rounds. My fix is pushing the spring to the rear with a thin screwdriver down the front of the follower. When I see the rear loop of the spring thru the hole in the bottom plate, I put an 8-32 x 1/4 inch nylon screw in the hole. The screw will keep the spring from sliding toward the front. The screw is easy to remove before disassembly.
I have not found any such problems with either 5 or 20 round mags for the mini 14 or 30. The 10 round mags seem like not well thought out after thoughts.
My fixes work for me. If anyone else has other solutions I am open new ideas.

I have some (as-yet untested) aftermarket 10-rd Mini-14 mags. Your approach is simple, and appears potentially useful. The nylon screw idea is an elegant one.

SAN14 07-25-2020 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by slam-man (Post 1643920)
Just to be clear. I am discussing Ruger 10 round mini 14 mags not mini 30 mags.
With the mini 30 10 round mags the problem is not the spring. The problem sometimes is the bottom of the spring moves forward and follower tilts back enough for the bolt to override the last few rounds. My fix is pushing the spring to the rear with a thin screwdriver down the front of the follower. When I see the rear loop of the spring thru the hole in the bottom plate, I put an 8-32 x 1/4 inch nylon screw in the hole. The screw will keep the spring from sliding toward the front. The screw is easy to remove before disassembly.
I have not found any such problems with either 5 or 20 round mags for the mini 14 or 30. The 10 round mags seem like not well thought out after thoughts.
My fixes work for me. If anyone else has other solutions I am open new ideas.

I had a problem with 4 new Ruger brand 10rd. mags for my Mini 30s. In all 4, the mag spring was not strong enough to push the bolt lock all the way into lock position. This occurred in all 3 of my Mini 30s
Ruger said to send them in but before I did, I tried a cut-down AR15 mag spring. Just like you, I left 1 extra coil in and it worked perfectly. I did the same with the other 3 mags and have not had any feeding problems in any of my 3 Mini 30s.

W.R.Buchanan 07-25-2020 12:15

What "Tactics" did you use while testing these magazines?

If you haven't noticed War is coming, and coming fast.

Randy

imarangemaster 07-25-2020 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan (Post 1644036)
What "Tactics" did you use while testing these magazines?

If you haven't noticed War is coming, and coming fast.

Randy

On the 20s and 30s, I did about one shot every second for a couple mags. Any fater than that, and I'd get tossed out of the range!

imarangemaster 08-05-2020 19:56

Well, I decided to have a re-do at the range today. This time I had two factory 77 MK262 clone loads with me (CBC aka MagTech, and IMI Israeli Military Industries 77 grain "Razor" factory loads). This time I did a rest and sandbags to get the most stable shooting. I also had the 581 stainless in the vintage 181 series (shorter) carbine style Mini-14 stock I picked up on eBay.

First I double checked Fed/LC M193 for battle sight at 25 yards. Just over 1/4" center to center at 25 yards with POI 1.25" above POA. Should be dead on to 250-275 yards. 200 yards was closed but I busted some clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm with 6 o'clock hold with iron sights, with the M193.

Then my 77 grain Nosler reloads. At 25 yards, they gave me a 3/4" group which would spread to 3" at 100 yards. Much better than the last time.

Then CBC 77 grain factory. A little over 1/2" at 25 yards with iron sight, so maybe 2 inch at 100. Still good combat accuracy.

Then the IMI 77 grain RAZOR. OMG, one small ragged hole at 25 yards with iron (actually smaller than the M193!) . POI was only 1/4" to the right of the M193 55s. That's about an inch at 100 yards. Without adjusting the sights from the M193, I nailed four out of four clay pigeons at the 100 yard berm.

I continued to plink more using the 77 grain handloads, and still nailed the majority of the clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm. Good enough for practice, anyway.

I am totally satisfied with my shooting this time. With the 77s being only 1 to 1.25 MOA different from the M193, I don't need the tech sights. I did about 200 rounds over the course of an hour, all from Ruger factory 20s and 30s. Zero malfunctions, and no noticeable change of POI as the barrel heated.

I hope this 5.56 ammo shortage foolishness ends soon. While I have 1,000 rounds of M193, about 400+ rounds of the M193 clone reloads, and still have 600 rounds of my 77 grain reloads, but only have about 160 rounds of the CBC 77s and about 60 rounds of the IMI Razor 77s. When they come back available, I'll grab another 500 rounds of either.

W.R.Buchanan 08-10-2020 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by imarangemaster (Post 1644098)
On the 20s and 30s, I did about one shot every second for a couple mags. Any fater than that, and I'd get tossed out of the range!

But were you behind cover or just concealed? Were you part of a team, or lone wolf?

I read all the books suggested by people on this thread and they were essentially useless as they were written for Spec Ops Officer Training and were basically administrative in nature and contained no field tactics or movement suggestions whatsoever. You'd have to study them for months just to get past the Acronyms.

What is your plan to combat the insurgency?

Randy

RIBob 08-10-2020 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by imarangemaster (Post 1645676)
Well, I decided to have a re-do at the range today. This time I had two factory 77 MK262 clone loads with me (CBC aka MagTech, and IMI Israeli Military Industries 77 grain "Razor" factory loads). This time I did a rest and sandbags to get the most stable shooting. I also had the 581 stainless in the vintage 181 series (shorter) carbine style Mini-14 stock I picked up on eBay.

First I double checked Fed/LC M193 for battle sight at 25 yards. Just over 1/4" center to center at 25 yards with POI 1.25" above POA. Should be dead on to 250-275 yards. 200 yards was closed but I busted some clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm with 6 o'clock hold with iron sights, with the M193.

Then my 77 grain Nosler reloads. At 25 yards, they gave me a 3/4" group which would spread to 3" at 100 yards. Much better than the last time.

Then CBC 77 grain factory. A little over 1/2" at 25 yards with iron sight, so maybe 2 inch at 100. Still good combat accuracy.

Then the IMI 77 grain RAZOR. OMG, one small ragged hole at 25 yards with iron (actually smaller than the M193!) . POI was only 1/4" to the right of the M193 55s. That's about an inch at 100 yards. Without adjusting the sights from the M193, I nailed four out of four clay pigeons at the 100 yard berm.

I continued to plink more using the 77 grain handloads, and still nailed the majority of the clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm. Good enough for practice, anyway.

I am totally satisfied with my shooting this time. With the 77s being only 1 to 1.25 MOA different from the M193, I don't need the tech sights. I did about 200 rounds over the course of an hour, all from Ruger factory 20s and 30s. Zero malfunctions, and no noticeable change of POI as the barrel heated.

I hope this 5.56 ammo shortage foolishness ends soon. While I have 1,000 rounds of M193, about 400+ rounds of the M193 clone reloads, and still have 600 rounds of my 77 grain reloads, but only have about 160 rounds of the CBC 77s and about 60 rounds of the IMI Razor 77s. When they come back available, I'll grab another 500 rounds of either.

Saving valuable 5.56 ammo is precisely why I bought my 10-22, set-up as much as possible with same Ultimak rail/optics as my Mini, and use it for range training purposes. Sure I have a Ciener conversion kit, but the 10-22 is less hassle.

Anyone who has not salted away a LOT of .22RF ammo, and who has failed to make provisions for training with it is remiss, IMHO. YMMV.

RIBob 08-10-2020 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan (Post 1646436)
But were you behind cover or just concealed? Were you part of a team, or lone wolf?

I read all the books suggested by people on this thread and they were essentially useless as they were written for Spec Ops Officer Training and were basically administrative in nature and contained no field tactics or movement suggestions whatsoever. You'd have to study them for months just to get past the Acronyms.

What is your plan to combat the insurgency?

Randy

Please allow me to make some comments. Take them as you will.

I lived through the 1968 (ish) series of riots, both Race-based, and Anti-War, and they were FAR worse than what we see currently, IMHO. Been in some other riots, too. Almost always as a by-stander, and not a participant. Does not matter if one is in the middle of things when the local SHTF.

What we see nowadays is weak-spine, Progressive, Mayors and such being unwilling to rein-in their base of voters.

It is my belief, based on common sense, and history, that these politicians will mostly be voted out of office, and the new politicians will allow the police to perform their legitimate duties. Even the ones who stay in office will get a serious "wake-up" call.

In the interim, they--and the rioters--will overplay their hands, as they always do. Trump has given them enough rope to hang themselves before federalizing the National Guard.

As for some of the textbooks provided, one has to do some prior homework. The Gov. and the Mil. love acronyms. One has to deal with the situation as it occurs, sad to say. Like anything worth doing, it takes some effort.

Not being at all dismissive of your concerns, nor portraying myself as any sort of expert.

RJF 08-10-2020 14:37

My experience with PMC Bronze versus M193 is pretty negligible (at least negligible in terms of desired results). A difference of .5-1.0 MOA doesn't matter to me. I have four guns that shoot .223 REM (PMC Bronze) and three that can accept 5.56 NATO M193. The .223-only gun is a bolt gun, so I set aside a 200-round pack of PMC Bronze for it and all is good. Everything else is available to my other three. One would be hard-pressed (short of a chronograph) of telling the difference between PMC Bronze and M193 in terms of performance, accuracy, or reliability.

To me, the ammo is pretty much interchangeable except for my bolt gun. Thinking back, it would have been better to get a bolt gun that also does NATO ammo, and - perhaps - accept a Mini-14 mag...But I was searching for capability and compatibility within a certain price range. The Savage worked for me! The RAR would be better, but wasn't available at the time.

W.R.Buchanan 08-17-2020 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIBob (Post 1646444)
Please allow me to make some comments. Take them as you will.

I lived through the 1968 (ish) series of riots, both Race-based, and Anti-War, and they were FAR worse than what we see currently, IMHO. Been in some other riots, too. Almost always as a by-stander, and not a participant. Does not matter if one is in the middle of things when the local SHTF.

What we see nowadays is weak-spine, Progressive, Mayors and such being unwilling to rein-in their base of voters.

It is my belief, based on common sense, and history, that these politicians will mostly be voted out of office, and the new politicians will allow the police to perform their legitimate duties. Even the ones who stay in office will get a serious "wake-up" call.

In the interim, they--and the rioters--will overplay their hands, as they always do. Trump has given them enough rope to hang themselves before federalizing the National Guard.

As for some of the textbooks provided, one has to do some prior homework. The Gov. and the Mil. love acronyms. One has to deal with the situation as it occurs, sad to say. Like anything worth doing, it takes some effort.

Not being at all dismissive of your concerns, nor portraying myself as any sort of expert.

I agree with most of what you said because I am 70 and lived thru the same times except out here in So CA. Then I went in the Air Force and did fine in Texas until I got rat packed by a bunch of Detroit Soul Bros who didn't care that I was born right down the street from them in Detroit! Just another Cracker that needed his ass kicked cuz of all the bad things us whiteys did to them in Detroit Michigan,, like give them jobs. building cars!

This time is different. These people are Professional Anarchists! The leaders are being paid by Geo Soros to do what they are doing. They are well educated on the Tactics of Asymmetrical Warfare and from what I've seen are able to outwit the police in every city they show up in. And we've seen it for the last 5 months. If you see a person with a $400 Bull Horn spouting their agenda,,, he is being paid to do that!!!!

This will continue until some of them get whacked! And I mean that in the Clearest sense of the word !!!!!!!

Perfect example on the news this last weekend, the Chicago Leader who was telling everyone it was OK to Loot because it was Reparations? and She didn't care if they burned the city down? They are demanding everything the Commies want to bring this country down and they are doing it hiding behind the BLM Moniker.

How can you be against Black Lives Mattering? Except Black Lives Matter is not about Black Lives. it is about bringing down Trump. and only about bringing down Trump! They don't give a ship about Black People and are only using them and it is Soros Hungarian Commie, and the Chinese Commies who are creating all this ship. Specifically to get rid of Trump who is a PITB because he isn't a Wuss who lets them screw the US like has happened for the last 50 years.

Add in the constant Media Bashing of Trump and attacks on Fox News Right now it is 7 to 1 Lying Liberal Media against Fox. Oh but Fox is Lying.

I have 4 rules I have compiled that define Liberal behavior and you can watch TV tonight and see every one of them in action.

Rule #1 Liberals Screw Up Everything They Touch!
Rule #2 whatever they accuse you of ,,, they are already doing.
Rule #3 Liberals will lie about anything no matter how insignificant.
Rule #4 When all else fails,,, They call you a RACIST!!!

Tell me where I'm Goin' Wrong?

This crap will bleed over into the suburbs because if Trump is Re-Elected they will go apes hit!

I live in a Semi Rural Neighborhood and whereas there are a few Libs here most of us are well armed Conservatives. We can easily block off both ends of our street and stop traffic flow of unwanted's thru our area. We also have a LAPD Cop who lives with us and she is well versed in crowd control as she has been working overtime dealing with it in Chatsworth and Downtown LA for the last few months.

I was hoping that IMA could share some of the Police Tactics he used while on the Job to educate us a little more and help us stay alive if SHTF? It wouldn't take long to write down a few tips that might help us.

Randy

imarangemaster 08-17-2020 22:17

WR, I am basically of the same mind as you. There is far more at play than meets the eye. Chicago's black mayor was almost in tears berating the violence. She called it right. It was criminal violence and looting. It had nothing to do with BLM.

BTW, in a study by the National Institute of Science commissioned by the Obama administration, of the black males who died between 15 and 35, only 1.6% died in interactions with police. The majority were killed in gang violence, suicide and drug overdoses.

mini-mizer 08-18-2020 07:07

The political structure in Chicago is/has been run by gangs for a long time. Currently
the violence between black street gangs is over the value of a street corner
used for selling drugs. The value of a street corner in S Chicago is in the neighborhood
of $90+K/day. The Mexican cartels go thru the Latin Kings then thru the black
gangs with their drugs. Chicago is the center for the same reason Sears put
their headquarters there, it is centrally located. The drugs come up in semi trucks and are stored in warehouses. The gang leadership determines where the votes are
cast, they decide and orchestrate it. This goes back a long time. Going up the food
chain via money laundering this goes to the top. See the HSBC money laundering
case and the Wachovia case. Note who was the AG and who was on the board of
directors. Also note how these cases came to light...whistleblowers and foreign sources.
See how Obamas political advisor Jesse Jackson Jr ended up. Not much was/said
about that guy.


Trump is the disrupter-in-chief.. sorry off topic. If I lived in one of these riot zones
I might be doing some planning too. And making sure the mini and 1022 were
ready.. MM

RIBob 08-18-2020 13:53

It is always a wise idea to be prepared for any sort of eventualities, be they an earthquake/flood/societal collapse/dislocation, and what have you.

Most of the usual preps include moving away from locales which are likely to suffer directly from such events. In all cases, prudent preps include (but are not limited to) Food storage, and most especially access to--and treatment--of water supplies. This last cannot be overstated.

I have a "Water-Maker", which is a very expensive device intended to make potable water out of sea water, and usually found in "lifeboat' kits. Useful to me, here in coastal RI. Other folks might/will need other water sources/devices. Regardless, potable, disease-free water will be like Gold if SHTF. Plan on intruders trying to find such, and keep your preps "silent".

Remember the "Rule of 3's". 3 minutes without air. 3 hours without adequate clothing/shelter. 3 days without potable water. 3 weeks without adequate food.

Plan accordingly.

imarangemaster 09-13-2020 19:32

I don't think I have posted a picture since I put it in a 181 Series stock with the shorter length of pull. Look at the figuring in the grain. Looks more like walnut than birch, especially in the second pic.

https://i.imgur.com/YCqAmdv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1z0XDSn.jpg

hylander 09-13-2020 21:01

I thought this thread was about a 10 round mag not feeding correct.
All the sudden like it turned into survival and politics :blink:
Anywho, I have only had one mag in the past not feed correct and that was a John Mason 10 round, that was the only 10 round I owned.
imarangemaster:
Nice rifle, like the wood :cool:

Sparkie 09-14-2020 09:03

hylander: I have one Ruger 10 round mag.
Feeds ok most of the time but is a pain in the a$$ to insert and remove
from my Mini. I'm glad I only purchased one.

SMOGGUY 09-14-2020 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by imarangemaster (Post 1653182)
I don't think I have posted a picture since I put it in a 181 Series stock with the shorter length of pull. Look at the figuring in the grain. Looks more like walnut than birch, especially in the second pic.

https://i.imgur.com/YCqAmdv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1z0XDSn.jpg

I do a lot of woodwork an to me it kinda looks like "crouch wood" which is usually highly figured an can be very difficult to dry an mill up without distorting an other problems.Very nice work..


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