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Old 07-06-2020, 10:49   #1
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Suggestion to ImaRangemaster.

Sir: In a recent thread you said you were a LEO Instructor and taught Urban Tactics?

Most of us can already shoot, at least I can.

What we need is Lessons in Tactics so we can effectively fight without getting shot!

Could you give us some tips on tactics to use in an Urban Environment so we might be more able to successfully defend ourselves and homes, and if necessary assault a position or defend against an enemy assault.

Maybe a Short Course in Police Tactics?

Please don't put any information like this up over at Calguns as there are way too many left wing children over there who would do us harm in a second. No need to educate them!

Randy
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Old 07-06-2020, 12:38   #2
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I see Rules of Engagement as the biggest obstacle to successfully defending your home
or neighborhood after SHTF ! Will you get arrested like we see today? At what point is it legal to shoot on sight.
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Old 07-06-2020, 13:15   #3
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If SHTF, there are No rules except to save the lives of yourself and family. The way that LEO'S are running away from statue desecrators, i wouldn't expect them to get involved in Hatfield vs. McCoy skirmishes. More likely the New Prleans Katrina response... they bravely ran away away..
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Old 07-06-2020, 13:56   #4
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Originally Posted by 40nascar View Post
If SHTF, there are No rules except to save the lives of yourself and family. The way that LEO'S are running away from statue desecrators, i wouldn't expect them to get involved in Hatfield vs. McCoy skirmishes. More likely the New Prleans Katrina response... they bravely ran away away..
With all due respect, I have some disagreement; Not altogether, but in part.

Allow me to say I'm NOT a Lawyer.

It's quite possible, even likely, that your personal SHTF event is purely local to you, and not an issue for folks even a short distance away. IOW, it's a localized riot, and not a true societal collapse.

That being likely, the Law will likely intrude, in the aftermath.

I personally knew a man, now deceased, who got tired of his business being broken into by means of driving a car through the front of the well-secured building. Cops were called, and all that, many times.

Long story short, the business owner slept in his shop, and next time someone drove a car through the front of his store, he was waiting, and armed.

Perp raised a crowbar and advanced on my friend. My friend shot him dead on the spot.

The result, and this WILL vary depending on where you live, and more importantly, the attitude of the prosecuting DA.

My friend, although ostensibly having committed justifiable homicide under State law, was arrested, booked, released on bail, and had the experience of hiring a lawyer, and going through the Grand Jury investigation. They returned "No True Bill" but that was thousands of dollars later. Not to mention my friend sweating-out the outcome.

I might add that he was personally impacted by killing another person, and I know that he wished that it had not come to that.

I hope your State/County/City laws are different. I hope your prosecuting DA is holding to your relevant laws. First step is to look into them, and see where you stand, legally, in case of shooting someone.

Second step is to say NOTHING, aside from identifying yourself, to the cops, until your lawyer is by your side. NOTHING, except that you want to speak to a lawyer. NOTHING!

WARNING: I'm NOT a Lawyer, so take the above for what it is worth.

Both Donn DiBiasio, and Perry Wheeler subsequently became stalwart supporters of RKBA, and did so until the end of their lives. RIP, my friends. We here in RI owe both of you a lot. I remember, and others do as well.

Last edited by RIBob; 07-06-2020 at 14:16.
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Old 07-06-2020, 13:56   #5
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Originally Posted by 40nascar View Post
If SHTF, there are No rules except to save the lives of yourself and family. The way that LEO'S are running away from statue desecrators, i wouldn't expect them to get involved in Hatfield vs. McCoy skirmishes. More likely the New Prleans Katrina response... they bravely ran away away..
I would agree, mostly, but every situation is local. It will take a half-hour for our local sheriff to get here, perhaps a bit less. Until then, it is up to us (neighbors), who are perhaps a bit less forgiving of trespassing - particularly armed trespassing. The local sheriff folks are great, and they can quickly block off the 1/2 mile of private road getting to us and our neighbors. But it is up to us until then. Chalk outlines are tough to make on a gravel road...Plus they'd have to battle the buzzards, which are federally protected...
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Old 07-06-2020, 14:29   #6
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Personally, given the laws in my State, I DO NOT want to be forced to shoot anyone.

Given that, perhaps it is worthwhile considering the security of one's home, and deterring break-ins.

Lots of ways to do this, and many of them inexpensive.

I replaced the glass-windowed outer doors on my current locale with metal-clad doors, and used lots of locks on the doors. I used 4" screws for the strikers and hinges.

A determined perp can bust down my door, but I'll be awake long before they get through. I'll be behind my solid bedroom door, armed, and in contact with the cops long before they gain entrance.

There is nothing outside my bedroom worth risking my life/maiming/injury for. If the perps bust through the bedroom door, I have appropriate means to defend the occupants.

Given the consequences, I'd rather not have to do so. Hence the "Upgrading" of the whole house is suggested as a deterrent.

Note how my posts, if ever quoted, deliberately put myself on the defensive. That's deliberate.

Nothing on the Interweb really goes away. I suggest posting comments in a way your Lawyer would approve. Be intelligent, and cautious. Never say anything on the Interweb that can be used against you.
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Old 07-06-2020, 14:38   #7
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Back to OP:

Mission drives Gear. IOW, this is somewhat predictable.

Situation drives Tactics. IOW, this is much more variable, and must be addressed on a case-by-case basis.
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Old 07-06-2020, 15:46   #8
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Hi Guys. Let me put some simple lessons down. Some is just simple things you say to LEO after a defensive shooting, ie "I had to shoot, I had no reasonable alternative to save my life," or "I thought I was going to die.". Simple things like that help.

Also some basics: not allowing yourself to be backlit, using shadows, difference between cover and concealment, practicing safe reloads, show of force without using it (like the couple in St Louis).

I'll work it up and do it in episodes...
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Old 07-06-2020, 15:51   #9
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This is a fairly good read, might be helpful.
https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Urba.../dp/0982542976
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Old 07-06-2020, 15:57   #10
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Those two Ill-Trained homeowners are likely in for Trouble, given the Leftist AG/DA looking into things.

First of all, they waved their firearms around, keeping scant muzzle-control that I saw. Hell, the guy seemed to put his wife in line with the muzzle of his rifle. The wife pointed her pistol directly at the "demonstrators".

Both of these people were panicked, and ALSO ill-trained. In a stressful situation, You revert to your the lowest level of training. These people apparently had little, or no training.

Good, universal Rule: Don't point your firearm at anything that you don't wish to destroy. These panicked fools failed to do so.

Wait a few days, and the Leftist DA might charge them. We'll see.
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Old 07-06-2020, 17:59   #11
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Originally Posted by RIBob View Post
Those two Ill-Trained homeowners are likely in for Trouble, given the Leftist AG/DA looking into things.

First of all, they waved their firearms around, keeping scant muzzle-control that I saw. Hell, the guy seemed to put his wife in line with the muzzle of his rifle. The wife pointed her pistol directly at the "demonstrators".

Both of these people were panicked, and ALSO ill-trained. In a stressful situation, You revert to your the lowest level of training. These people apparently had little, or no training.

Good, universal Rule: Don't point your firearm at anything that you don't wish to destroy. These panicked fools failed to do so.

Wait a few days, and the Leftist DA might charge them. We'll see.
They were common citizens who believed that if they did not take some kind of action they would be next. I would have done exactly like they did in their situation . The local prosecutor may go ahead and file on them anyway and there is NOTHING you can do about that so don't let that stop you from doing what you think is right. You only have to be reasonable, you don't have to be right. That includes pointing the gun at the perpetrators. It worked for them and the bad guys left. Mission accomplished.

kwg
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Old 07-06-2020, 18:13   #12
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Massas Ayoob made a video years ago that may give you a some things to consider.

https://youtu.be/-j4PS_8R5IE

Some very good things a gun owner should stress to his lawyer in the event a situation arises where a life is taken in defense of themselves or their loved ones.

I know watching videos aren't a replacement for experience or practical skill Just putting this out there for consideration.
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An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

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Old 07-06-2020, 18:43   #13
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Originally Posted by Bepe View Post
Phuck em.....they get what they vote for. The Demorats actually want it this way. It will help in the fight to instill a "Federal Police Force" that Obama hinted about. Much easier to control a federal force than hundreds of independant agencies. This one federal force will be used to turn on any person not agreeing with the commie agenda.

Think it is far fetched....just wait for it.

Bepe
You are exactly correct. Any cop with a true sense of duty for his family and country would walk away from any left-wing controlled city and get his family to safety.

Things will get more interesting the closer we get to November.

Antifa are the new Brown Shirts. Nothin more than useful idiots, a means to an end. When the left no longer needs them they too will be culled like in the Night of the Long Knives.

I think any federal police force will be made up of mostly left-wing radical recruits, because anyone with any sense wouldn't participate in what they'll be tasked to do.

Have any of y'all read Matt Bracken's Enemies Foreign & Domestic trilogy? Truth is getting as strange as fiction.
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An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

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Old 07-06-2020, 18:48   #14
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Originally Posted by kwg020 View Post
They were common citizens who believed that if they did not take some kind of action they would be next. I would have done exactly like they did in their situation . The local prosecutor may go ahead and file on them anyway and there is NOTHING you can do about that so don't let that stop you from doing what you think is right. You only have to be reasonable, you don't have to be right. That includes pointing the gun at the perpetrators. It worked for them and the bad guys left. Mission accomplished.

kwg
Sorry, and with all respect, I differ.

These two people did almost everything wrong, and put themselves in legal jeopardy, given the Leftist DA in their locale. I'll be very much surprised if they are not up on charges as soon as the local Grand Jury returns a "True Bill". I might be wrong. We'll see.
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Old 07-06-2020, 18:52   #15
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Originally Posted by kwg020 View Post
They were common citizens who believed that if they did not take some kind of action they would be next. I would have done exactly like they did in their situation . The local prosecutor may go ahead and file on them anyway and there is NOTHING you can do about that so don't let that stop you from doing what you think is right. You only have to be reasonable, you don't have to be right. That includes pointing the gun at the perpetrators. It worked for them and the bad guys left. Mission accomplished.

kwg
“The Second Amendment was specifically for dealing with what is no longer feasible within the system. This applies to all organs of the state, whether they carry badges, gavels or law degrees.” – T. Mark Graham
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:45   #16
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Originally Posted by RIBob View Post
Sorry, and with all respect, I differ.

These two people did almost everything wrong, and put themselves in legal jeopardy, given the Leftist DA in their locale. I'll be very much surprised if they are not up on charges as soon as the local Grand Jury returns a "True Bill". I might be wrong. We'll see.
I believe you have been in Rhode Island just a bit too long RIBob. Welcome to the midwest. Common sense usually applies here. You don't see folks flocking to New York or anywhere on the east or west seaboard. They are coming here. (unfortunately) But, we will see.

kwg
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:50   #17
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Burn piles or manure pits take care of the bio waste left overs after you spend a bullet. This is why God moved me to the country away from the trash. The eternal question kill or be killed. The St. Louis couple did exactly what they had to do given the circumstances. I wasn't there and you weren't there RIBob. So we give our fellow law abiding citizens the benefit of the doubt. Sure glad he had an AR that says I mean business written all over it. In a rural setting I have the brightest flashlight known to man kind, my mini in an ATI stock has a forward mounted pressure switch light, laser, and I have night vision goggles if I want to stay dark and walk up behind the perp with a bat, ooo that was a double!
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:54   #18
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Originally Posted by kwg020 View Post
I believe you have been in Rhode Island just a bit too long RIBob. Welcome to the midwest. Common sense usually applies here. You don't see folks flocking to New York or anywhere on the east or west seaboard. They are coming here. (unfortunately) But, we will see.

kwg
You have a good point. When I consider moving to another State, I'll make a point of learning its' pertinent laws before deciding. Currently NC and SC are under consideration, as I have Kin there.
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Old 07-08-2020, 22:08   #19
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Originally Posted by imarangemaster View Post
Hi Guys. Let me put some simple lessons down... ...difference between cover and concealment, practicing safe reloads...
Those are three main things I concentrated on in my AJ firearms training.

Pre-planning cover vs concealment can greatly help in a shootout situation. There are many things that people would think would be cover (stops bullets), but most things are just concealment. Knowing about common things that are excellent cover when proper body positioning is used can save your life: tree trunks, fire hydrants, curb gutters, and U.S. Post Office mailboxes can be very functional bullet stoppers.

Extensive practice with low-light/tactile reloads was another important part of training.

The third important part, to me, is learning and practicing point shooting. In many cases, there is little time to bring the gun up and get a proper sight picture before firing. In the 3 to 20 ft distances where most armed encounters occur, point shooting is nearly always the fastest way to score the first hits on your assailant.
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Old 07-09-2020, 13:45   #20
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i strongly believe that any Mini user who contemplates shooting on a two-way firing range must install either an effective flash suppressor, or a sound-suppressor.

Very different devices.

FWIW, I've shot alongside Mass Mini owners shooting with OEM Mini bare barrels. The muzzle flash, even in daytime, is visible with typical Mini barrels. I invited the Mass shooter to observe my Mini, with Choate flash suppressor/front sight unit installed, from the side. Then I shot his bare-barreled rifle for him to see, same way. He said the difference was "Night and Day"--His words, not mine.

The Military requires a flash suppressor on every military rifle, from 20" barrel downwards.

The simple physics, and chemistry, are identical. And unarguable.

If you do NOT wish to be blinded by your own shots, and if you do NOT wish to be observed by your opponents, mount an effective flash suppressor.
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:38   #21
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OK,,, I put this topic up a week ago and there are lots of good responses posted.

As far as the guy and his wife in St Louis. Nobody in the crowd was in any danger of being shot by that woman. She was waving the gun around like a Wooden Spoon and I doubt it was even loaded. The guy had no idea what he was doing either.

That was a perfect example of who needs training? as neither one had any ! And that is the sugar coated version of how I really feel about it.

The other case where the White woman was being Harassed by a Black woman, the White woman actually had some training and her grip looked good and she had the pistol at the Ready and never pointed it directly at the Black woman. That one went away. The St Louis one is being driven by a Soros supported left wing DA that needs to go.. I doubt it will go anywhere either and the DA should be sued out of existence (cancelled?) for having their guns confiscated!

Looking forward to IMA's contributions to our Collective Tactical Competence.

Thanks to r80rt's link to the book which I bought.

Randy
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Old 07-14-2020, 06:09   #22
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Sir: In a recent thread you said you were a LEO Instructor and taught Urban Tactics?

Most of us can already shoot, at least I can.

What we need is Lessons in Tactics so we can effectively fight without getting shot!

Could you give us some tips on tactics to use in an Urban Environment so we might be more able to successfully defend ourselves and homes, and if necessary assault a position or defend against an enemy assault.

Maybe a Short Course in Police Tactics?

Please don't put any information like this up over at Calguns as there are way too many left wing children over there who would do us harm in a second. No need to educate them!

Randy
Ok... first. You say that you “can shoot”. Do you train with a timer, run standardized drills and track your performance?
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:23   #23
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
OK,,, I put this topic up a week ago and there are lots of good responses posted.

As far as the guy and his wife in St Louis. Nobody in the crowd was in any danger of being shot by that woman. She was waving the gun around like a Wooden Spoon and I doubt it was even loaded. The guy had no idea what he was doing either.

That was a perfect example of who needs training? as neither one had any ! And that is the sugar coated version of how I really feel about it.

The other case where the White woman was being Harassed by a Black woman, the White woman actually had some training and her grip looked good and she had the pistol at the Ready and never pointed it directly at the Black woman. That one went away. The St Louis one is being driven by a Soros supported left wing DA that needs to go.. I doubt it will go anywhere either and the DA should be sued out of existence (cancelled?) for having their guns confiscated!

Looking forward to IMA's contributions to our Collective Tactical Competence.

Thanks to r80rt's link to the book which I bought.

Randy
There are loads of instructional vids on YouTube, but the trick is to separate the posers from the real experts. A little bit of research will show you the way.

It's for sure that no video or manual can fully replace personal experience/training.

Another place to start is simple military manuals. This site might be of use:

https://archive.org/details/military-manuals

I have not downloaded anything from this site yet. There are other sites, possibly offering different manuals.

If one is thinking "big picture" this book might be of interest: https://www.amazon.com/Generation-Wa...s%2C160&sr=1-1
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Old 07-15-2020, 14:23   #24
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Originally Posted by Ontos View Post
Ok... first. You say that you “can shoot”. Do you train with a timer, run standardized drills and track your performance?
Ontos: How old are you? I am 70,,, and I have been able to shoot for the last 60 years, but I got alot better from 2006 on, when we started going to Front Sight and actually learned how to run a gun correctly as opposed what we thought was correct before. Schools like that only existed in the Military before then. Now there are many. We go 2-3 times a year for multiple courses like Rifle/Pistol or Pistol /Shotgun etc. Except for this year which sucks due to China!

I don't track my progress because there is no need to. I go to various shoots at my club and others locally and shoot for fun. Sometimes I do really good and other times I suck. I don't get to shoot enough to keep a really fine point on my skills,,, but I have shot enough intensive 4 day classes to know that there is a fine point I can achieve. And when I come back from a class I generally shoot really well for a month or so. I dry practice alot.

But,,, and this is what actually matters. I know for certain that if push comes to shove,,, that I can out shoot 98% of the people that I might engage... Because I have a proper mindset!

And I can recognize the other 2% that I can't out shoot ,,, and run!

My shooting is not what is lacking, my knowledge of Tactics is what I want to improve. Hence the reason for this thread.

Randy
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Old 07-15-2020, 14:28   #25
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Originally Posted by RIBob View Post
There are loads of instructional vids on YouTube, but the trick is to separate the posers from the real experts. A little bit of research will show you the way.

It's for sure that no video or manual can fully replace personal experience/training.

Another place to start is simple military manuals. This site might be of use:

https://archive.org/details/military-manuals

I have not downloaded anything from this site yet. There are other sites, possibly offering different manuals.

If one is thinking "big picture" this book might be of interest: https://www.amazon.com/Generation-Wa...s%2C160&sr=1-1
Bob: thanks for the links. I just bought two books off Amazon that you or someone else linked me to.

Randy
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