Frustrated with new 584 mini 14 - Page 3 - Shooting Sports Forum


Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 family of rifles

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Old 01-04-2020, 02:47   #51
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Attaching pictures is actually pretty easy on this forum if you have enough postings. The op rod is going to get some brass skid marks, especially if you still have the factory gas bushing installed. Ejection is pretty aggressive in the new Mini's.
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Old 01-04-2020, 04:20   #52
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No brass hitting this scope, also a Nikon (2.5-8x). No having to remove the rear sight either, and it is as low as can be, almost as low as the irons.



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Old 01-04-2020, 08:28   #53
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Originally Posted by kwg020 View Post
Attaching pictures is actually pretty easy on this forum if you have enough postings. The op rod is going to get some brass skid marks, especially if you still have the factory gas bushing installed. Ejection is pretty aggressive in the new Mini's.
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I didnít realize that was normal. Good to know, now i can scratch that off my list of things to be concerned about.
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:34   #54
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Originally Posted by Timberdog View Post
If you flip your scope over the brass won't hit it. It just makes it a little confusing to adjust as the windage knob becomes the elevation and vice versa. Good luck with your rifle.
Ha, funny you mentioned that. Despite the fact Iíve mounted boocoos of scopes on rifles, I initially mounted it that way unintentionally, just threw it in the rings and I guess i was so concerned with getting the cross hairs straight, I didnít even catch it until i had the gun on the shooting bench. Felt like a real goof. It did cross my mind how it would adversely affect function, if at all (besides windage adjustments being different). I changed it to the right position but it also crossed my mind that it would eliminate the brass contact issue on the turret (as well as make it easier to remove the bolt with the scope mounted)
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:45   #55
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Originally Posted by SEHunter View Post
I researched the harris mod a few weeks ago and was real close to doing it then decided not to. Im sure theres no ill effects because ive read where many, including yourself apparently, that have done it. What I never came across was what purpose exactly does Ruger machine that lip on the op rod for? Just looking at the area myself, I couldnít determine.
SE Hunter I'm one that did the Harris Mod to my 583 Mini-14. I used a powered wet-wheel (for sharpening knives).. Worked well, and I was unusually patient in taking it off. Always easier to take off than to put on...

I figured that with the flexibility of a buffer, a little bit wouldn't be noticed.

But I also realized that after taking off that lip, I would probably always need a buffer. No problem!

Still pondering my latest 583: a Ranch that seems to be VA-legal should bad bills become laws.
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Old 01-04-2020, 17:49   #56
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Originally Posted by RJF View Post
SE Hunter I'm one that did the Harris Mod to my 583 Mini-14. I used a powered wet-wheel (for sharpening knives).. Worked well, and I was unusually patient in taking it off. Always easier to take off than to put on...

I figured that with the flexibility of a buffer, a little bit wouldn't be noticed.

But I also realized that after taking off that lip, I would probably always need a buffer. No problem!

Still pondering my latest 583: a Ranch that seems to be VA-legal should bad bills become laws.
Thanks for the tip on the wet wheel. Just curious, why do you say you would always need a buffer after removing the lip?
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Old 01-04-2020, 22:08   #57
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Originally Posted by SEHunter View Post
Thanks for the tip on the wet wheel. Just curious, why do you say you would always need a buffer after removing the lip?
Iím not positive here, but I think it has to do something with the gas block taking the brunt of the energy rather than the bolt itself.
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Old 01-05-2020, 03:57   #58
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The gas block takes the brunt of the energy regardless of a buffer being used or not.
The buffer just softens that blow. I'm thinking he meant that he's taken a few thousandths off the op-rod, so he now needs a buffer to make up the difference.

My observation has been that the op-rod will travel forward a considerable amount after the bolt is fully locked, so there's plenty of leeway there.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:48   #59
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Actually, I'm assuming the "lip" serves some function regarding how far the gas pipe goes into the op-rod. Taking off the lip might affect that, so using a buffer fixes that.

IMHO.

A buffer will last pretty much forever without the offending "lip", and I prefer the feel with a buffer.

Still toying with my latest VA-neutral Ranch, but may likely take the offending lip off of it, too. Or maybe swap with my 583 Tactical from which I removed the offending slicer/dicer lip.
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:12   #60
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I was just catching up on this thread and realized I had not seen anywhere that you choked the gas system down with Bushings or an Adjustable Gas Block.

If you haven't done this then your accuracy problems are probably directly related to that. With the stock gas bushing every time the gun fires the big chunk of steel bar on the Op Rod hits the front of the Receiver. This Repositions the action in the stock with every shot. This alone would account for your horizontal stringing and any other stringing you might encounter.

After choking the gas down, then the next thing that comes up is that no one had asked how you are holding the gun on the bench.

The Group I posted in post #25 was shot using an "Artillery Hold " on the gun. This is essentially a somewhat loose grip on the gun that allows the gun to recoil freely thruout most of its reward travel while softly contacting your shoulder or take up the slack in the recoil pad.

You still have complete control of the gun but you are not forcing it to be in one position. The recoil will yield a strait line movement rearward as opposed to any sideways influence which could send shots off to the side.

It essentially works like the recoil absorbing mount on an artillery piece.

This technique puts the least amount of external influence on the guns firing cycle, which will result in the tightest grouping.

Next is indexing the sights on the target.

Repeating the exact point of hold on a target is critical to good groups.

The key is in the type of target chosen for sighting the gun in. A Diamond shaped Target is the hot tip here.

With Iron Sights you hold the lowest point of the diamond directly on top of the Front Sight and aligned with the middle of the Front Sight Blade. This is a very fine hold and not easy for older eyes until your vision is corrected so that your Front Sight is in perfect focus.

Nothing else matters but the Front Sight ! The target will be fuzzy, the rear sight will be fuzzy, only the Front Sight is in Hard Focus.

With Open Sights you will make Sight Alignment by locking the Front Sight Blade or Bead in the notch of the Rear Sight and holding that alignment in place with your cheek weld. Then you will obtain your Sight Picture by indexing the Front Sight on the target as discussed above. Squeeze.

With Peep or Aperture Sights, you do exactly the same thing except there is no need to concentrate on centering the Front Sight in the aperture, as your eye automatically does this for you. You simply put the Front Sight on the target and let fly.

With a Scope with Cross Hair type reticle you will align the vertical hair on the top and bottom points of the diamond and then bring the horizontal hair up to the bottom point of the diamond. The normal thing to think, is that you would align both hairs on the points of the diamond, but it is much harder to align two axis at once than one.

With a Red Dot Sight you use the side edge of the dot on either the 3 or 9 o'clock points of the diamond. On the group shown below I was indexing the Right side of the dot to the 9 o'clock point and trying to keep the dot centered up and down. Since I was sighting the gun in I was looking for about 1" high at 100 yards for a 200 yard zero.

Since the Dot in my sight is 3 MOA the group should have been slightly to the left for perfect zero. Elevation is right on.

If you try to center the dot up on some point of the target the best group you will get is whatever the gun will shoot plus the size of the dot.

Say a 2" gun with 3" dot = 5" group, Which generates complaints about Mini 14's accuracy.

Hope this helps some of you, but until you choke the gas down it is pointless, as the guns accuracy potential is not being achieved in the first place.

Randy

Here it is again.
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Frustrated with new 584 mini 14-img_1139.jpg  
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Old 01-06-2020, 04:29   #61
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Originally Posted by SEHunter View Post
Ha, funny you mentioned that. Despite the fact Iíve mounted boocoos of scopes on rifles, I initially mounted it that way unintentionally, just threw it in the rings and I guess i was so concerned with getting the cross hairs straight, I didnít even catch it until i had the gun on the shooting bench. Felt like a real goof. It did cross my mind how it would adversely affect function, if at all (besides windage adjustments being different). I changed it to the right position but it also crossed my mind that it would eliminate the brass contact issue on the turret (as well as make it easier to remove the bolt with the scope mounted)
Yeah, lots easier to remove the bolt with the scope flipped. My rifle only had the brass hit the turret a couple of time before I flipped it. I like it a lot better now when I clean it. Mines a 583 series with a Redfield Revolution 2x7 on it with the stock rings that came with the rifle.
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Old 01-06-2020, 07:44   #62
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
I was just catching up on this thread and realized I had not seen anywhere that you choked the gas system down with Bushings or an Adjustable Gas Block.

If you haven't done this then your accuracy problems are probably directly related to that. With the stock gas bushing every time the gun fires the big chunk of steel bar on the Op Rod hits the front of the Receiver. This Repositions the action in the stock with every shot. This alone would account for your horizontal stringing and any other stringing you might encounter.

After choking the gas down, then the next thing that comes up is that no one had asked how you are holding the gun on the bench.

The Group I posted in post #25 was shot using an "Artillery Hold " on the gun. This is essentially a somewhat loose grip on the gun that allows the gun to recoil freely thruout most of its reward travel while softly contacting your shoulder or take up the slack in the recoil pad.

You still have complete control of the gun but you are not forcing it to be in one position. The recoil will yield a strait line movement rearward as opposed to any sideways influence which could send shots off to the side.

It essentially works like the recoil absorbing mount on an artillery piece.

This technique puts the least amount of external influence on the guns firing cycle, which will result in the tightest grouping.

Next is indexing the sights on the target.

Repeating the exact point of hold on a target is critical to good groups.

The key is in the type of target chosen for sighting the gun in. A Diamond shaped Target is the hot tip here.

With Iron Sights you hold the lowest point of the diamond directly on top of the Front Sight and aligned with the middle of the Front Sight Blade. This is a very fine hold and not easy for older eyes until your vision is corrected so that your Front Sight is in perfect focus.

Nothing else matters but the Front Sight ! The target will be fuzzy, the rear sight will be fuzzy, only the Front Sight is in Hard Focus.

With Open Sights you will make Sight Alignment by locking the Front Sight Blade or Bead in the notch of the Rear Sight and holding that alignment in place with your cheek weld. Then you will obtain your Sight Picture by indexing the Front Sight on the target as discussed above. Squeeze.

With Peep or Aperture Sights, you do exactly the same thing except there is no need to concentrate on centering the Front Sight in the aperture, as your eye automatically does this for you. You simply put the Front Sight on the target and let fly.

With a Scope with Cross Hair type reticle you will align the vertical hair on the top and bottom points of the diamond and then bring the horizontal hair up to the bottom point of the diamond. The normal thing to think, is that you would align both hairs on the points of the diamond, but it is much harder to align two axis at once than one.

With a Red Dot Sight you use the side edge of the dot on either the 3 or 9 o'clock points of the diamond. On the group shown below I was indexing the Right side of the dot to the 9 o'clock point and trying to keep the dot centered up and down. Since I was sighting the gun in I was looking for about 1" high at 100 yards for a 200 yard zero.

Since the Dot in my sight is 3 MOA the group should have been slightly to the left for perfect zero. Elevation is right on.

If you try to center the dot up on some point of the target the best group you will get is whatever the gun will shoot plus the size of the dot.

Say a 2" gun with 3" dot = 5" group, Which generates complaints about Mini 14's accuracy.

Hope this helps some of you, but until you choke the gas down it is pointless, as the guns accuracy potential is not being achieved in the first place.

Randy

Here it is again.
Its got a 0.45Ē bushing. Every once in a while itíll poop a case out only 12-18Ē on my shooting table. Usually its 6-8 feet. Of course its possible those are the rounds that smack the scope. I havenít had any fte issues so Iíll probably leave the .045Ē in there.

Iíve been shooting off a lead sled without weight in a bench rest position. Only contact with the gun is my right hand and cheek on the buttstock.
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Old 01-06-2020, 08:48   #63
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I like to rest my Mini on sand bags or a plastic version of a rest I got for Christmas. (sorry, I don't know who makes it) I put the stock on the bags just in front of the magazine well. I also put a sand bag under the butt stock. I have been able to get MOA doing this, but not for every group. I'm pretty sure mostly because of me and not the rifle. I have a .040 gas bushing and I'm still throwing brass 15 feet. With a .045 I'm throwing it 20 plus feet.

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Old 01-06-2020, 12:08   #64
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The Lead Sled is fine for some guns. I shoot my A5 Shotgun off one because with heavy loads recoil is a factor, but that gun also uses it's recoil to cycle the action (Long Recoil Action) so alot of the recoil energy is used up during the cycling of the action.

For the Mini and most of my guns I simply use my shooting rest with leather bag in the rear.. This allows the gun to move fore and aft freely. Mini's don't have a whole lot of recoil movement and will only move an inch or so if not restrained at all.

This allows the bullet to be gone from the barrel before the gun is very far into its rearward push during recoil. Keep in mind that the rearward push starts as soon as the powder ignites and builds pressure. So the gun starts to move rearward as the bullet moves forward in the barrel. If the gun is allowed to move freely during those few milliseconds,,, it will influence the bullet less,,, than if the gun is forced to be in some position that the recoil is attempting to change. Thus exaggerating barrel whip and influencing the bullets flight direction before it leaves the barrel.

I have seen High Speed Videos of the early Mini 14's during firing, and all I can say is it is a wonder that the barrel even stays connected to the gun! They are literally all over the place, and in every direction. But the main reason why it is so radical is because the early guns were even more over gassed than the new ones are.

Randy
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Old 01-07-2020, 17:24   #65
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I’ve contemplated going to sand bags, the long one for underneath the fore end area and a shorty for the rear. Only reason i still prop on the lead sled is because its what i have. I stopped using weight a long time ago and just use the frame for a rest. If I'm trying to dial in a large bore rifle or bolt gun, i may use weight. I primarily thought about moving away from it because it doesn’t simulate how the rifle will respond under recoil in the field when hunting. Its really just good for load development then probably better to zero the scope with the shoulder. i do however like the newer versions with the handle to adjust elevation and windage position. If they make one without the rear stock pocket, I’d probably look into one. The newer ones from Caldwell with all the bells and whistles aren’t cheap though.
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Old 01-08-2020, 05:09   #66
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Funny, I've always used the lead sled with weight when sighting in. After the last time I resighted the rifle I was thinking I might do better just using bags on the front to more replicate what the rifle will do under field conditions as SEHunter said. I'll find out what's better next time I check it.
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Old 01-29-2020, 15:43   #67
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Wondering if any updates on your problem?
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Old 02-04-2020, 16:57   #68
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I removed the Leupold scope and sent it in to be checked out. After reviewing my target papers, it appeared that there were two decent groups within my groups, if that makes sense. Just precautionary so I don’t continue to try fixing the gun if its a scope issue.

When i get the scope back, I’ll mount it with #5 rings and retest. I’ll probably file off the op rod lip but only after i shoot with the scope remounted a few times. Leupold said 4-6 weeks, so it should be showing up soon. Ill also probably continue testing different ammo. All the fuss in this thread was using Hornady superformance 53gr vmax.
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Old 02-05-2020, 16:54   #69
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If I can’t get it straightened out, I guess I’ll consider selling it. My problems with that are first, i have a personal resolve of never selling any firearm I’ve taken ownership of. I’ve only traded one gun, a 22-250 for another 22-250. Second, if the gun turns out to be a poor shooter, whether its a bad barrel, etc, I’ll have a conscious problem selling it to someone else, like selling a vehicle full of “no smoke” just to get it out of the driveway. Guess it depends on how you look at it. Its still minute of bad guy at 100 yards and I haven’t had a single malfunction with it.

If i do end up deciding to part ways with it, i may take it to my preferred gun shop and trade up for a new Colt Python.
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Old 02-05-2020, 18:17   #70
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Originally Posted by SEHunter View Post
Its got a 0.45Ē bushing. Every once in a while itíll poop a case out only 12-18Ē on my shooting table. Usually its 6-8 feet. Of course its possible those are the rounds that smack the scope. I havenít had any fte issues so Iíll probably leave the .045Ē in there.

Iíve been shooting off a lead sled without weight in a bench rest position. Only contact with the gun is my right hand and cheek on the buttstock.

I too limit the contact with the rifle when I am checking accuracy. I do draw it tight into my shoulder with my right hand while the left hand is squeezing the sand bag to adjust for elevation. Leaving it too loose has had a negative impact on accuracy, thus a snug shoulder fit. I also put as much barrel and stock forward of the sand bags so the stock has no effect on the front half of the rifle.


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Old 03-28-2020, 10:43   #71
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Old 03-30-2020, 08:01   #72
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
For the Mini and most of my guns I simply use my shooting rest with leather bag in the rear.. This allows the gun to move fore and aft freely. Mini's don't have a whole lot of recoil movement and will only move an inch or so if not restrained at all.

This allows the bullet to be gone from the barrel before the gun is very far into its rearward push during recoil. Keep in mind that the rearward push starts as soon as the powder ignites and builds pressure. So the gun starts to move rearward as the bullet moves forward in the barrel. If the gun is allowed to move freely during those few milliseconds,,, it will influence the bullet less,,, than if the gun is forced to be in some position that the recoil is attempting to change. Thus exaggerating barrel whip and influencing the bullets flight direction before it leaves the barrel.

Randy
Agreed,
I actually get my best results from shooting off a Bipod with a rear bag.
Also with the bipod the rifle is always rested the same, no change in forearm position on bags.
I never use a hard solid rest, I have in the past and own a lead sled, but now it just collects dust.
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Old 03-30-2020, 10:48   #73
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Mini's need to get broke in. That requires alot of shooting and I mean at least 500-800 rounds. Cleaning the barrel frequently helps as well.

There is no reason why any currently made Mini shouldn't do 2 MOA right out of the box. With a little tuning they will do 1 MOA. Without shooting his gun I can't say what's wrong.

Sometimes just letting someone else shoot the gun will reveal the problem.

Randy
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Old 03-30-2020, 12:06   #74
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I'm finding out with mine that when it's shooting bad it's me whose shooting bad more then the gun. I've resisted messing with it still as it's always been a 2 MOA shooter when I do my part and the cheap ammo I use does it's part. Found out that sighting it in with the lead sled wasn't as good as just a front bag. Mine is a 583.
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Old 08-30-2020, 12:01   #75
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Had a number of things come up since i last did anything with my mini but I finally picked it back up last week. Got the scope back from Leupold. They replaced an erector spring, whatever that is, and aside from that, it checked fine. I removed the aftermarket gas block and reinstalled the factory one, kept the same gas bushing. Still have the cc shims. Installed the scope and shot some. The Hornady 53 gr superformance shot 2.5” groups at 100yds. Swapped to pmc x-tac 55 gr and groups opened up to 4.5”. The barrel was getting hot and it seemed the group began to open up more as i shot. After about 25 rounds, there started to be some flyers. I’ll probably keep the gun, with the right ammo it seems to be a near 2moa gun. That’s minute of any varmint at 100.
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