Question Mini 14 Co-witness? - Shooting Sports Forum


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Old 01-09-2017, 10:31   #1
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Mini 14 Co-witness?

Does anyone run a scout rail (Ultimax is the lowest I think) with a micro-dot or any other combo and get any type of co-witness?

I await your responses and pics.
Thanks
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Old 01-09-2017, 13:09   #2
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Made a measurement for you, using my Mini 14 #188 S/S Ranch. It's fitted with an Ultimak rail. Currently set up to use a scope, soon to be switched to a red dot sight.

The optical center line of the red dot I intend to use sits about 1/2" higher than the sight line of the front sight. It will work fine (by my needs) and the top of the front sight will simply blur out of focus. No easy way to set it any lower. One could raise both front & rear sights, but that's more custom work.

The Ultimak rail is great, btw. Have a Houge overmolded stock ready to go. Drop the scope, add a red dot and the Houge and it's a handy set up.

PS; saw the other posting at the black site. Can't log in there due to their page issues.
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Old 01-09-2017, 16:07   #3
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Yes!. That is the ONLY advantage to my side-mounted funky P-rail by UTG: I can use the irons using a cheek mount, or I can use a scope/dot with a chin mount. No removing of anything.
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Old 01-09-2017, 16:35   #4
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no expert here.....

but, it just seems that the mini irons are way to low to have an effective co-witness with an optic. the AR's open sights are just so much higher than the mini.

the best alternative that i know of is quality QD mounts or rings. i find them to be a great addition if you choose to run optics on your mini.
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Old 01-09-2017, 16:42   #5
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There is a trade off with co-witness sights, the mini gives you a good cheek weld without it. The AR gives the co-witness without a good cheek weld.
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Old 01-09-2017, 20:22   #6
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Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
I can't see how any optic mounted to the top of the Mini could possibly co-witness with the iron sights on a Mini. The picatinny rail that mounts to the top of the receiver of the current model Ranch Rifles requires a channel down the middle just so you can see the sights through it. Nothing mounted on top of it would be anywhere near low enough to co-witness.

The idea of co-witnessing sights is somewhat unique to AR type weapons where the front sight is some 2.6" above the bore centerline as opposed to a traditional sight height of around 1" which precludes any mounted optic from co-witnessing with them. It's actually much easier to assume you'd use 'see through rings' where you can look under the mounted optic to sight through the irons.
The Ultimax scout rail that replaces the barrel shroud should be low enough to allow a lower 1/3 co-witness in a Bushnell TRS-25.


Thanks for the other replies.
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Old 01-09-2017, 20:37   #7
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Originally Posted by X Man View Post
Made a measurement for you, using my Mini 14 #188 S/S Ranch. It's fitted with an Ultimak rail. Currently set up to use a scope, soon to be switched to a red dot sight.

The optical center line of the red dot I intend to use sits about 1/2" higher than the sight line of the front sight. It will work fine (by my needs) and the top of the front sight will simply blur out of focus. No easy way to set it any lower. One could raise both front & rear sights, but that's more custom work.

The Ultimak rail is great, btw. Have a Houge overmolded stock ready to go. Drop the scope, add a red dot and the Houge and it's a handy set up.

PS; saw the other posting at the black site. Can't log in there due to their page issues.
So you're looking at a lower 1/3 co-witness I assume?

That isn't a bad thing.
An absolute co-witness puts a lot of the sight in your field of view.
Having the co-witness lower allows you to see the dot in a less obstructed optic.

Thanks for the work and the post.
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:43   #8
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Originally Posted by JRCmx View Post
The Ultimax scout rail that replaces the barrel shroud should be low enough to allow a lower 1/3 co-witness in a Bushnell TRS-25.


Thanks for the other replies.
I have 2 Ultimaks. and a third one on it's way to me. Absolutely no way to get even a 1/3 co-witness. My FastFire III sits lower than a TRS-25, and it would have to be about 3/8" lower yet to get co-witness.
As hawkguy said, just run a Q.D. mount, or use a coin or cartridge rim to turn the thumbscrew.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:35   #9
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Originally Posted by sandog View Post
I have 2 Ultimaks. and a third one on it's way to me. Absolutely no way to get even a 1/3 co-witness. My FastFire III sits lower than a TRS-25, and it would have to be about 3/8" lower yet to get co-witness.
As hawkguy said, just run a Q.D. mount, or use a coin or cartridge rim to turn the thumbscrew.


This is a TRS-25 and a FastFire face to face.
If you zoom in to the FF you can see the leading edge of the optic in the mount.

The Bushnell is lower.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:01   #10
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I remember a long thread on this subject years ago with pictures of co-witness occurring. You can judge for yourselves if it suits your needs. It looks like JRCMx initiated that thread also.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger...o-witness.html
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:09   #11
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COSteve - The type of rail used will change the relative position of the iron-sights axis with respect to the rail axis. I have marked up some pics from the internet with a redline indicating the approximate iron sight axis. These are from common setups I have seen for various rails and optic packages.
Attached Thumbnails
Mini 14 Co-witness?-scout1024.jpg   Mini 14 Co-witness?-mini-14gb_clone_a.jpg   Mini 14 Co-witness?-dsc_0744-vi.jpg   Mini 14 Co-witness?-ultimak_mini14_2886.jpg  
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:35   #12
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The stainless one, third from left comes closest. If you consider maybe being able to see the very tip of the irons at the bottom of the glass ( 1/8 co-witness ??) a co-witness.
And only then because of an uncommon bayonet lug front sight mounted halfway down the barrel.
As I have mentioned before in posts, the type of mount clamp that will come with a red dot makes a lot of difference in the height.
You could maybe get a 1/3 co -witness if you forego the mount and just duct tape the red dot tube directly to the Ultimak or the barrel.
JRCmx, yes, the TRS-25 does sit nice and low, however, although the bottom of the glass sits lower, where the dot is is abut the same.
Like Tri70 said above, I prefer giving up the co-witness on the Mini in order to have nice low sights and a good cheek weld.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:15   #13
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Originally Posted by sandog View Post
...You could maybe get a 1/3 co -witness if you forego the mount and just duct tape the red dot tube directly to the Ultimak or the barrel...
Great...now ya did it. There will probably be pics and a question for you in a few weeks...

No co-witness, but I can see the top of the front sight through my Red Dot, an inexpensive Target Sports 3 MOA. It did help with centering the windage, but still had to dial in the elevation. With it and my Leepers 6>40 AO I get more of a chin-weld than cheek, but it feels comfortable.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:37   #14
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I don't have my Ultimak rail yet, but I have no doubts about you folks are saying regarding the degree of "co-witnessing" occurring. I only point out that this conversation has been had with many of the exact same folks over the same talking points over the last few years, hence my reference to the past threads/photos.

My last post with the four rifles showing the sight axis was a very specific response to this statement:

Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
As the sightline of the irons is below the picatinney rail top (requiring a channel to even see the irons with it installed)
Obviously the rifle setup may make that statement true or not, depending.

Thank you.
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Old 01-11-2017, 16:16   #15
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Look how low the rail mounts on the rifle.
It's below the fwd ring mount..
I'm going to go work the corner to get the cash together so I can buy the rail.


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Last edited by JRCmx; 01-11-2017 at 16:56.
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Old 01-11-2017, 18:30   #16
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Just use the red dot and for'git about it!
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:49   #17
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Originally Posted by tri70 View Post
Just use the red dot and for'git about it!
^^^^ Exactly^^^^.
Good irons on the Mini ( Tech rear and winged front) are low sturdy and protected. A decent quality ($200 and up) red dot are also pretty dang tough. Short of dropping your Mini off a building, they'll be there when you need them.
If some of you are so determined to get some sort of co-witness, good luck to you and let us know the results.
You'll have to come up with taller iron sights or a different clamping arrangement for the dot, or both.
JRC, yes, the Ultimak sits nice and low. Those of us that have used them for a few years know all the advantages besides the low optic plane.
Can't go much lower than this :



I've been trying to talk guys into the Ultimak for 2 1/2 years now, I guess most don't want to shell out $140 to have the best optic mounting platform there is. Even if you never put a scope or dot on it, they're worth it for the added stiffness and heat dissipation.
You were posting these same questions here back in 2013, I'm surprised you didn't already have an Ultimak.
Best I can do with the Ultimak and FF III is seeing either the front sight in the dot screen or the rear sight, seeing both is a no go.
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Last edited by sandog; 04-23-2019 at 05:06. Reason: replace missing Photobucket pics with Imgur pics
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:16   #18
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Still debating which to buy an Ultimak for: my 181GB or my 583 Tactical. Pros and cons for each. Will probably settle on one for each, just trying to justify the expense to myself. I have a 3X9-32 scope that works well on my 181; doesn't play as well on my 583 due to the short length. I can use irons or the scope on my 181 (due to the funky side-mounted rail) without having to remove anything. That is not the case for my 583, so I'm inclined to get an Ultimak for the 583 and put one of my two TRS-25s on it (the other would probably go on my Mossberg 930). Much of this is how I might employ my two Minis: the one in the barn area is more likely to engage at 200-250 yard ranges (scope); the one at the house more like 100 yards or less (dot). I don't feel like investing in a long eye relief scope, so the 181 with the funky side-mounted rail will likely have the scope (and down at the barn area) and the Tactical will have the dot.

All of this is to say that the intended use for the Mini drives how (and what) optics are mounted. I kinda like not having to think about removing lens covers and turning on a dot before going into action, though...
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:17   #19
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I'll second Sandog on the Ultimak, definitely one of the best investments for the Mini, right up there with the Tech Sights and AccuStrut. I also tried to go the co-witness route with the Primary Arms Micro Dot, but I wasn't successful due to the same reasons as posted above.

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Old 01-14-2017, 13:26   #20
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I just installed an Ultimak mount with a Bushnell TRS 25 on a 183 series Mini. Merry Christmas to me. My experience with it is limited as I have only shot it once to sight the system in.
When you sight thru the aperture, the dot appears at the top of the post sighted for 100 yards. If you look over the rear sight, the dot appears above the post.
A side note; years ago I had slightly modified the front sight by filing a reverse taper to the front of the post to remove the roundness to get a sharper less reflective sight picture. This lowered the height slightly but we are talking in the thousands range.
My experience, your mileage may vary.
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:06   #21
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I have a ultimak rail on a early 580 tactical and a trs-25 and it co-witness perfectly lower one third. Had to shoot with both the red dot and red dot turned off using irons only not issues at all.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:16   #22
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Funny other threads on here of people getting them to co-witness too

582 and true 1/3 co-witness. Yes, you can.
Mini 14 Co-Witness ??

These are just two examples here in the forum where their guns co-witness but I will try and get some pics of mine up later.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:57   #23
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Old 02-04-2017, 17:35   #24
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Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
What you're asking for is impossible with any available optics, whether they be red dot or scope.

Bottom line, it's perfectly obvious by just looking at the Mini that, like all conventional rifles with sights close to the barrel axis, that co-witnessing anything is a pipe dream.
Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
Face it, it's impossible. Solid Geometry is simply not your friend on this... it's just plain impossible to co-witness an optic to a Mini's iron sights. I'm afraid that Euclid himself is against you on this one.

It is most certainly NOT impossible to co-witness a red dot on a Mini-14. Yes, it's tricky, since most optics on most rails are too tall. The factory receiver-mounted rail won't work, since it's way too tall. Amega rails won't work, since they're too tall. Most red dots won't work, since they're too tall. But I've found a combination that works. Here's my setup:



It uses an Ultimak rail with a Primary Arms fixed base Micro Red Dot.

And yes, it cowitnesses. It's a very low cowitness (lower 1/5th or so of the optic), but it's usable.

Below are some photos to illustrate the cowitness. They're not the greatest, but it's pretty hard to get shots like that with a smartphone camera. (My apparent superhuman ability to violate all the laws of mathematics while spitting in Euclid's eye were of little help with the photo taking, but I somehow managed...)

Normal view through the optic, looking over the rear sight and using just the red dot.


View through the rear sight at the front sight (with cowitness).
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Old 02-05-2017, 14:27   #25
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So first the "consensus" was that it was impossible. Period, end of story. Mathematically impossible. Euclid himself was spinning in his grave at the mere thought of it.

But now in the face of evidence - both in this thread and others on this forum - that it's possible, the "consensus" has magically transformed into it being possible but worthless?

I think you're just being contrary, Steve. You clearly have never tried such a setup, or you wouldn't have so vehemently claimed it be impossible in the first place. So how can you know whether it's useful or not?

Cowitness has some definite benefits.

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