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Old 11-12-2019, 17:12   #1
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Home Defense

I wanted some opinions. I know they are like behinds, everyone has one. So how about some. Home defense.

Red Dot - Yes or No - You can see a Red Dot from both sides in the dark.

Firearm - Shotgun or Rifle? Don't have a pistol so don't suggest one. One floor home. Master bedroom on one end. Dawgs since we moved into the country have a better sense of what belongs and bark at sounds much better than in the city.

Got three shotguns to choose from two are Semi and one is over under. One semi has a pistol grip and loves double 00 and the other is extra long and loves everything you feed it except for those short ones.

Have three mini's, although they all have scopes, but 1-4x with illuminated reticles. Have an AR but its single shot. One Marlin 9, M1 Carbine, and an SKS are the only semi's. Oh, one Garand. Have four lever guns, although my wife choose one as her go to. All in 45 Colt.

No Children in the house except during school breaks. So what to keep within easy reach? I don't exactly live in a high crime area. But we are secluded to a certain degree.
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Old 11-12-2019, 18:59   #2
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Whatever shotgun is the shortest and easiest to handle. But really, a rifle length firearm is unwieldy inside the house. I use a 9mm pistol with a suppressor. It has a red dot but really, inside the house, you should be able to aim and shoot with the "naked" eye.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:37   #3
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I don't want to shoot anyone, even in my worse day I couldn't imagine. No pistols and no suppressors. Just want a last stand. Nothing in the house is worth someone being killed or even wounded. For now I have the 9MM Carbine. Short, handy and on target. Was thinking of the short barreled shotgun and some double 00. Thanks for the response.
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Old 11-13-2019, 18:43   #4
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What you have to think against is MULTIPLE HOME INVADERS. When trouble comes at you, he generally brings friends who are as stupid as he is. In order to stop these guys cold you need to layer your defenses.

That means you need to have outside lights that you can turn on from several places inside your home that are mounted high up and aimed down towards specific areas like at the front door, rear of the house and sides of the house. You also want to be able to videotape, if possible, what happens in the outside areas of your home. This works well for your legal defense if it should be needed later.

See how layering works? You plan ahead of all sorts of possible trouble, from beginning to end and sometimes beyond the end.

As to weapons for defense, you also layer those too. A decent AR rifle has proven to be effective time and again when used against home invaders. Trouble is that rifles like the AR group can jam when you need them the most which is why you back-up the rifle with a good pistol. You also back-up the pistol with a good knife, hammer, tomahawk or bayonet.

There is nothing wrong with using a rifle with metal or iron sights. Red dots need batteries and also have the ability to fail you just when you need them the most. One of the sights that some people consider is the Meprolight M-21 sight because they don't need batteries.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...-reflex-sight/

You can also get sights for you rifle that are coated with luminous material to make them visible in the dark of a nighttime situation.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...prod41695.aspx

Or you could paint your sights yourself...

SiteGlo - Glow in the Dark Gun Sight Paint - SiteGlo Facts

The point is that Mr. Badguy is going to hit when he thinks things are working well for him like maybe at night, possibly when the local power is down and out, or when he thinks you might be a soft target. If you're ready to rock-n-roll as soon as get started and have a back-up plan when things jam or go wrong, that make you the winner.

Imagine that! dh1633pm a winner when things got real bad. I kind of like that idea.

By the way, nobody wants to kill or shoot anybody else. Everybody wants to live in peace and have a long life. Trouble is that there are a certain percentage of people out there that don't want to go by the unwritten rules of civilized men. We call those people criminals.
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Old 11-18-2019, 03:32   #5
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My favorite is Mossberg 500 pump 20 gauge youth model. Loaded with #3 buck. I've worked out with this gun a lot. Have an ammo card with 7 rounds on the side and 5 in the tube. Easy to reload in the dark, small, light and fast. It fits me well and has proven itself on game and varmints. Have around some other stuff around too for backup.
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Old 11-21-2019, 18:12   #6
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SXS 'Coach Gun' 12 ga. magnum 00 Buck and a Makarov 9mm in back pocket - and if time permits a spare mag, shotty shells and if not a baseball bat I lean up in a near door corner.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:00   #7
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Have a Mossy 930 semi-auto. Don't like it, but the logic was under stress, one might forget to charge it or re-load/re-rack. Also, doing so might be tough with an injured arm.

So it has a round in the chamber with five followers, cocked and ready to go once the safety is off. I keep on waiting for it to go off some night sitting in the corner...

Great for rapid access, but I'd prefer racking on an empty chamber...Personal preference...

00 Buck, of course...
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Old 11-22-2019, 18:07   #8
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I have some "things to think about" to add to this conversation.

#1. and probably the most important is,

"Under What circumstances are you willing to kill somebody?"

Kind of need to establish that before you go on to weapons selection.

If you are not willing to kill a person then Firearm Safety Rule #2 comes into play.

"Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to Destroy."

So by extension,, If you are not willing to kill someone, you shouldn't point a gun at them, and if you shouldn't point a gun at them,,, then you don't really have any business with the gun in the first place.

All that said, everyone but the weakest of individuals, will have a threshold after which they will evoke a violent response. Waiting for God to come and save you when he already put a shotgun in your hands is a down right stupid argument, so we can just get that off the plate right now.

Survival demands, that if you must fight then you must come forward with the most violent response you are capable of. You are fighting for your life and you better realize that fact going in. It is not something you figure out half way into the fight. If you see you are behind the curve,,, YOU NEED TO FIGHT HARDER!!!!!

Waiting to see what the two guys with ski masks carrying guns in your living room want from you, is not a question you should be asking.

You should be bringing your shotgun to bare and concentrating on shot placement. The thinking part of this scenario has been over for along time and you should have already made the decision to fire,,, like many years before.

Yes, you need to figure out what you're going to do well in advance. You won't have time to "figure it out" during eh fight which by all estimations will last between 2 and 5 seconds!

It is generally recommended that you write it down and mail it to yourself so you have a record of what will trigger you to use lethal force..

Always remember you are not trying to "kill people." you are only trying to Stop Them! from hurting you or your family..

Example: You have armed intruders in your home. You find them and shoot them ASAP! You need no further justification (even here in CA!) Good Idea to have a light on your gun so you can identify them rather than killing your drunk neighbor who went to the wrong house.

A man is holding a knife to your Wife's neck. You blow his head off as quickly as possible! You don't have time to think, you only have time to act and the longer it takes only gives him more time to react. Seconds count

A man is Raping your Wife or Daughter, you blow his head off, probably taking care to have the overspray land off the victim. Remember a shotgun blast will probably cover more area than you think and you are responsible for everything it hits. "Gun Safety rule #4" Plus the trauma that will be generated on your family will only be compounded by the mess.

Remember Eli Wallach's line in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

"if you're going to shoot,,, shoot!,,, don't talk!"

Guys,,, this is what Firearms Training helps you figure out.

You'll notice that in all my examples above I mentioned "Shotgun?" Well a 12 ga. shotgun is the most devastating and versatile close range weapon there is. So that's what we use for Home Defense. 00 Buckshot and Slugs,,, no birdshot!!!

I just got back from my 5th Tactical Shotgun Class at Front Sight at the beginning of this month. I started these classes over a year ago. Prior to learning how to use a Shotgun for Defensive Purposes, if you came into my house uninvited, I would have probably shot you with my G21SF .45 ACP.

Now you get 00 Buckshot or maybe a Slug!

Here's a pic of my Home Defense Gun. It is a simple Mossberg 500 with an 18.5" barrel. The magazine is fully loaded,(6 rounds of 00) no round in the chamber. (Known as "Cruiser Ready") And additional 6 rounds are on the velcro side saddle, 3, 00, and 3 Slugs, and I can grab two more loaded side saddles when I pick the gun up just in case.

You also note that there is a light mounted to the fore end. That is for identifying the target before I shoot.

Nobody with a clear mind wants to kill anybody. However you should never be afraid to defend yourself or your family with lethal force if circumstances warrant such a response.

It is up to you to decide where that line is, and I suggest you figure it out right now,,, if you haven't already done so.

Note: The holes on the hostage on the target below are from the wads, the shot payload was on the edges of the bad guys heads. These were shot at 5 yards and it pays to know exactly what your what your gun will do, to avoid mistakes.

I hope some of this helps.

Randy
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Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-22-2019 at 18:23.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:48   #9
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should add my coach gun has improved cylinder right barrel, modified choke left.
ideal for upland game
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Old 11-23-2019, 11:36   #10
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W.R., great points! If someone has busted in my door, I consider it a life threat and won't hesitate to ask about childhood background. May point toward a non-lethal target (the groin) given the opportunity, but in the heat of the moment, it will likely be COM.

I live out in the country, remote, with likely a 20-minute wait for LEOs (at best). Whomever might invade my house certainly feels he/she has some time, and being rural and going past a locked gate with a "Beware of Dog" sign, in the middle of the night pretty much assures he's not a Jehova's Witness. In Cold Blood comes to mind.

So little hesitation. If at all. Same goes for our barn, where our horses could be threatened.
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Old 11-23-2019, 13:18   #11
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Mini-14. Iron sights. 30 round magazine. 5.56 55 grain ball.

Do not come in my locked house without an invitation. If one or more do, I conclude they mean to hurt or kill me and mine. I must do all I can to deny them this opportunity. I know the "terrain" like the back of my hand...day or night. I can decisively engage targets at the ranges involved without the need to shoulder or sight. Yes...I have practiced that. Yes....I am quite confident this is the case. Yes...I am willing to and do stake my life on my level of proficiency and choice of rifle.

Never take a pistol or a shotgun to a rifle fight. Every fight is a rifle fight.

YMMV
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Old 11-23-2019, 17:16   #12
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Nothing wrong with a rifle for HD and many will choose one.

I used to,,, until I got good with the M500,,, and with slugs it is essentially .73 caliber Rifle.

Keep in mind that anything a slug hits is gone. And nothing lives thru a COM hit by a Slug.

I have a variety of slugs I load for my own personal use. They go from a 1 oz roundball to a 525 gr Lyman Slug that looks like a giant Airgun Pellet to Lee Foster Style slugs to some new Russian Concocted Slugs that weigh up to 625 gr! I load all these myself.

I also have some store bought slugs like ones made by Brenneke who developed the modern shotgun slug over 100 years ago. He developed the fins on the outside which make it possible for a slug to go thru a choke without blowing you up.

The great thing about shotguns is the myriad of things you can launch from one thus making the 12 ga Shotgun the most versatile weapon commonly available. That one that looks like a little missile has 1 Oz of C4 in the nose and will blow a 4 foot diameter hole in a block wall. Bargain priced at $1250.00 each available thru your local arms dealer.

Here's some pics. The ones with the big plastic Sabots are designed to be shot thru a fully rifled barrel and mine will yield 1" groups at 50 yards. The one with the brass nose piece weighs 550 gr! It is my own design. see group.

Randy
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Home Defense-100464885.jpg   Home Defense-100464896.jpg   Home Defense-100464943.jpg  
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Old 11-23-2019, 19:01   #13
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Thanks everyone for the posts. I was in Hawaii last week for a work conference. Seems like fun, but not really. I did get courted by another company with 18 year old scotch and full glasses.

I have no issue killing anything if necessary and I won't hesitate. Just don't want to over property. I asked opinions so I could come up with a plan for the new house. Its bigger and more open than the last one. Everyone needs a plan for all sorts of things including fire, flooding, break ins and all sorts of things I haven't even thought up. Just getting mine in order. Last Saturday I put in two fire extinguishers and moved a smoke detector to a better spot.

For the bedroom my wife has the 92 Lever in 45 Colt. She can handle it and I made her five rounds of practice ammo for loading and cycling. Its light and she handles it well. For me I am going to use the mini or the Camp 9. No optics. Extra mags in the side table.

I put better locking mechanisms on the interior doors. Since living where it is much quieter, the dogs have gotten better at reacting to sounds. The big lab at 120 pounds seems protective enough.

Lights have been replaced at each spot (they cover three sides of the house) with ones that are much brighter. I also adjusted them for better coverage. Auto lights in the front of the garage. Ones next to the front door go on at night and off in the morning.

The one side that isn't covered will be on my todo list to run some wire to cover that last part. Should be easy enough.

I have been ready each comment carefully. What I wanted was input and I got lots so thanks. Keep em coming.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:12   #14
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The fact that you realized that you didn't know everything and asked for input speaks volumes. So many think they have all this stuff figured out,, They don't! Every scenario is different that's why my signature so defines reality.

There is a myriad of info on the web on Hardening your Home Defenses, and everyone should be aware of as much that pertains to your home defense as possible. You can't know too much!

And everyone who is gun person should know that the gun has to be the last option or they will put you in jail.

Yes, I live in CA!

Avoidance of the fight is ALWAYS the best option!

Randy
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Old 11-25-2019, 17:12   #15
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Best advice so far Randy. I do like the shotgun option.
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Old 11-26-2019, 02:05   #16
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Anyone that gets past our fences (yes, plural) and steel double bolted doors will then face our Pitt Bull and Mean Assed Hound Dog ....anyone getting past them in 1 piece will suffer an absolute hail of gunfire regardless of which room they enter....my wife is likely more deadly w/a rifle, shotgun, & smallarm than I am.
Any survivors will face our security system footage at trial consisting of 8 cameras and a 2 terra-byte driver / recorder that works in standard, zoom, night vision, infra red, AND voice recording modes.

We don't play on my block !

Edit to add: at the first gunshot at LEAST 2 of my neighbors would come to the edge of my property, armed, and ready to assist if necessary.
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Old 11-27-2019, 16:19   #17
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Originally Posted by Rockys Pop View Post
Anyone that gets past our fences (yes, plural) and steel double bolted doors will then face our Pitt Bull and Mean Assed Hound Dog ....anyone getting past them in 1 piece will suffer an absolute hail of gunfire regardless of which room they enter....my wife is likely more deadly w/a rifle, shotgun, & smallarm than I am.
Any survivors will face our security system footage at trial consisting of 8 cameras and a 2 terra-byte driver / recorder that works in standard, zoom, night vision, infra red, AND voice recording modes.

We don't play on my block !

Edit to add: at the first gunshot at LEAST 2 of my neighbors would come to the edge of my property, armed, and ready to assist if necessary.

Wow. I'd move if I had to have that much security!
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Old 11-28-2019, 13:19   #18
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Originally Posted by LousyShot View Post
Wow. I'd move if I had to have that much security!

some stupid dolts have never seen John Waynes " Big Jake"
" everyone knows what's in this box, and with this austentious display, we're saying you can't have it"
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Old 11-28-2019, 13:48   #19
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In your case the shotgun is going to be best, with a limit on ammo capacity and NYs pistol laws a short shotgun is likely your best tool. I would have a good light mounted on it and not worry about sights.
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Old 11-29-2019, 07:43   #20
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Burlary, robbery and theft ?

Just wanted to add a small but important point.
You can prepare for some crimes but some things are thrust upon you without warning.
Take for example: your out on your property and you find someone stealing something, a lawn tractor, parts on your car, from around your house etc.
It's a theft, and depending on the value of the item a misdemeanor or a felony.
Would you be armed already ? You might want to walk away and just call the Police, would the thief let you walk away ?

A burglary generally happens when you aren't home. A thief enters a building or dwelling with intent to commit a crime. This is usually a felony. Are you guns secure ? If you came home when your house is being burglarized, are you armed?
A robbery occurs when a person is confronted with the threat of force or the suspect is armed. The typical home invasion is a robbery or a burglary where you are home and wake up in the middle of the night to confront an intruder.

You can prepare for an occurrence but might not be prepared for all incidents.
True that some criminals are dumber than a box of rocks but most aren't.

They will scope out a home and know when your not there (theft, burglary)
and prepare for a crime (robbery) if they intend to confront you.

A lot to think about. Stay armed, stay safe.
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Old 11-29-2019, 07:49   #21
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In many states, you can use force to deter someone intent on stealing your property, but not deadly force, especially if that property is outside your home. As far as I am concerned, if I catch a home invader inside the house, my assumption is that he is intending bodily harm, not just a theft, and I will act accordingly. But I am not going to shoot someone for trying to steal my lawnmower.
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:35   #22
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Lurp.....i'm prepared and would be safe in any above mentioned scenarios.....but I also realize that you can't plan for EVERYTHING.
That's where my Boy Scout Motto comes in handy...." Be Prepared "

Lousy...i've worked too damned hard since I was 14 for everything i've earned in life, so no, i'm not just going to stand by and let some tweaker steal my chyt.
And luckily, I live in one of the few states, that says I don't have to allow it !
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:11   #23
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there are many variables to this scenario - for instance wild animals, feral dog pack attacks??
I may expound on this later.
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Old 11-30-2019, 12:41   #24
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You live in a litigious state courtesy of god-king Andy Cuomo.
I believe Buchanan has a combo suitable for your situation. Adapting tritium sights and an affixed white light to your semi shottie sounds like the best idea within your limitations. You want target ID and a sight system less dependant on batteries.
Within the confines of your home its a wash between buck or slug
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:25   #25
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My home is 800 yards from our gate, which is secured at night. Quickest response time was 20 minutes when my wife had a heart attack. Should anyone breach our closed gate at night (with a "No Trespassing" and a "Beware of Dog" sign), one can safely assume it is not a Jehova's Witness...
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