Non AR rifles in matches - Shooting Sports Forum


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Old 02-05-2015, 11:35   #1
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Non AR rifles in matches

I would like to see videos of non-standard rifles (AR-15) being used in carbine matches.

Examples:
Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
Stage 1 - Ruger uncased at 11:35
Practical Rifle Match - Stage 1 - YouTube


Stage 2 - Ruger is first up
Practical Rifle Match - Stage 2 - YouTube


Stage 3 - Ruger at 7:31
Practical Rifle Match - Stage 3 - YouTube


Stage 4 - Ruger at 4:52
Practical Rifle Match - Stage 4 - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpfYjRvjP18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GR7n5KPHus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xmqhpeaeio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1WFaWHE974

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLGP0VwRWtc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dedOnrhSmcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-w8BzPpZIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p0ekR6Zk20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVzggIdN21Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsfBVrWyOgQ


https://www.full30.com/video/f33231c...c8d6d1ff6d9f44


I would like to see an m1 carbine in a match.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:50   #2
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Good thing it does not have a pistol grip and holds less than 10 rounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syrpAFPkGDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1LteJLRdaU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-cYkj-C0Nk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZOI1YPerE

https://www.facebook.com/kkiesler/vi...4647037756101/
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:58   #3
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Great channel
So jealous that we do not have this type match here.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...83shF-D9IkF7Gi

https://www.youtube.com/user/romeotangofoxtrot/videos
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Old 04-30-2020, 10:59   #4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ztPrXk8skg
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Old 04-30-2020, 11:03   #5
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swoXSccUzns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjhsE4G0a1Q
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Old 05-09-2020, 15:57   #6
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I haven't used my AR in a 3 gun match in several years, probably need to fix that..

I rotate thru my Carbines, Mini 14, Kel-Tec SU16, AR, Fight Lite SCR , Ruger PCC .40.

I also rotate thru my Pistols shooting my various 4 Glocks.

I also rotate thru my 3 Shotguns.

The Glocks all work essentially the same so no big deal there. Still grip, sight alignment, and trigger control can be dry fire practiced in my easy chair at night,,, and I do.

The Rifles mostly use the same mags except the PCC which uses the same mags as 2 of the Glocks and the Mini 14 which uses it's own mags and I have to always practice inserting them before the match as they go in different.

With the Shotguns 2 M500's run exactly the same way but hold different amounts of ammo in the mags. The Browning A5 is fastest of all, and essentially runs close to the pump guns. So not much change over there.

Dry Practice with all these guns helps alot.

I feel the only way to truly stay proficient is by changing guns monthly.

What you are essentially training for is the eventual confrontation that may happen at any time. You probably won't have your favorite gun with you, and may have to use whatever you can pickup if you are lucky enough to even get that chance.

Point is everyone really needs to be proficient with as many firearms types as possible. Learning the Idiosyncrasies of different weapons will also help you when you buy a new gun. You'll already know which ones you don't like or are a PITB to run or shoot accurately.

Can you run a 1911?,, how about a Sig P210? or a CZ 75 or a Glock or M&P? How about a Revolver like a S&W 642 or a Single Action Ruger Super Blackhawk?.

Can you run a Levergun effectively in a fight? How about a Bolt Gun?

Can you effectively manage the ammo you are stuck with?

All these things are questions you should answer for yourself long before you need to.

There's a saying,,, "Any gun will do, If you will do!"

So,,, Will you do? Or will you suck? Only one side of that coin actually works !

Randy
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:38   #7
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if you dont OWN lots of different types of gun, why would you need to know how to run them? Do you believe in the 007bs, one will drop into your hand just as you need it? I have only one longarm, an AR, with a carrying handle. i only have 3 handguns and all are SA cocked and locked. I dont want to waste range time and ammo on learning others, maintaining skill with them, etc.

When you're under lethal stress, that can really mess you out. In one of his stakeouts, Jim Cirillo shot a guy with 00 Buck, center chest, from about 10 ft and the guy turned and ran. Jim was so flabbergasted at this turn of events that he tried to shoot the guy without first working the action. If such a veteran of gunfights can screw up, so can you. Dont risk it. There's no reason to do so.
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:16   #8
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Originally Posted by toyhw View Post
if you dont OWN lots of different types of gun, why would you need to know how to run them? Do you believe in the 007bs, one will drop into your hand just as you need it? I have only one longarm, an AR, with a carrying handle. i only have 3 handguns and all are SA cocked and locked. I dont want to waste range time and ammo on learning others, maintaining skill with them, etc.

When you're under lethal stress, that can really mess you out. In one of his stakeouts, Jim Cirillo shot a guy with 00 Buck, center chest, from about 10 ft and the guy turned and ran. Jim was so flabbergasted at this turn of events that he tried to shoot the guy without first working the action. If such a veteran of gunfights can screw up, so can you. Dont risk it. There's no reason to do so.
So do you carry your AR everywhere you go? What happens if you are at the local Walmart and you don't have your AR and the only thing laying on the floor is a Mini 14 or an AK or a Glock,,, or God forbid a Sig. or maybe a bottle of Gator-aid!

Since You have no familiarity with these weapons I guess you could pick it up and hope it shoots by just pulling the trigger cuz that's all you've got to work with. If it is jammed or low on Ammo what are you going to do? What if the mag is laying on the floor next to it. And all of this is if you are lucky enough to find a gun or something handy to throw..

Can you shoot a slingshot" I have one in my Jacket pocket and I can hit you in the head with a 1/2 ball every time inside of 50 feet.

How about throwing an axe or hammer or can of Beans or Dog Food. After all this is Walmart and there are a variety of weapons just laying around waiting to be put to good use.

There's a saying,,, "Any Gun will Do, If you will do!" Oh I already said that!

Here's a little broader concept to work with,,,

It's not how well you do what you KNOW how to do,

It's how well you do,,, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO!!!

Randy
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Old 07-08-2020, 16:36   #9
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Now I gotta buy more guns to practice with just in case? Maybe I should buy a phaser and a plasma rifle too. But could just stay outta the Walmart. Though I would really like a sturmgewehr. But on a serious note I have used my .45 acp pcc’s in several ipsc and zombie matches and had a ball. No videos though.
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Old 07-10-2020, 09:52   #10
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Please don't quote this toy mall ninja. Or lousesh!t, or freesh!t. Remember, children are to be seen and not heard.......
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Old 07-13-2020, 18:22   #11
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I’ve seen a couple of people try and run Mini-14’s in 3-Gun and they’ve gotten worked over really hard.

If you have a decent skill level you might do ok in bay stages at a local club level match without a deep talent pool because all you need is two hits anywhere anywhere on paper.

However, the first long range stage where you have to burn a mag on close range paper and then go to steel out to 500 meters you’re going to be hosed.

There’s a reason why AR variants are the vast majority of you see in the competitive shooting sports.
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Old 07-15-2020, 13:55   #12
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Originally Posted by Ontos View Post
I’ve seen a couple of people try and run Mini-14’s in 3-Gun and they’ve gotten worked over really hard.

If you have a decent skill level you might do ok in bay stages at a local club level match without a deep talent pool because all you need is two hits anywhere anywhere on paper.

However, the first long range stage where you have to burn a mag on close range paper and then go to steel out to 500 meters you’re going to be hosed.

There’s a reason why AR variants are the vast majority of you see in the competitive shooting sports.
Yeah,,, I can consistently hit targets out to 300 yards with mine with a Red Dot Sight with a 1-6X scope installed I could go 500 easy. But the events i go to like Piru CA aren't shooting at 500 yards. Piru draws shooters from all of LA and the surrounding area so the "talent pool" is pretty deep.

Plus that, I don't really give a ship about where I place as long as I don't suck too bad. I can't keep up running around with 25 year old's like I used to, but I still do pretty good against most of them. Unless they have excellent skills, or are Recent X Mil (which most don't) I can compete head to head with them.

A couple of years ago I made the final out of 60 guys at a man on man shoot off at Front Sight. I got beat by .2 seconds,,, by a 27 year old Ex Scout Sniper fresh back from Afg. I was 68!

I got more mileage for 2nd place than he got by winning. I shot my Mini 14. he had a $2500 Daniel Defense AR.

It all depends on what your idea of winning is? Seldom is there any money up for grabs,,, and I can come right up to speed if there was!

Any gun will do,,, if you will do!

Randy
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:11   #13
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Yeah,,, I can consistently hit targets out to 300 yards with mine with a Red Dot Sight with a 1-6X scope installed I could go 500 easy. But the events i go to like Piru CA aren't shooting at 500 yards. Piru draws shooters from all of LA and the surrounding area so the "talent pool" is pretty deep.

Plus that, I don't really give a ship about where I place as long as I don't suck too bad. I can't keep up running around with 25 year old's like I used to, but I still do pretty good against most of them. Unless they have excellent skills, or are Recent X Mil (which most don't) I can compete head to head with them.

A couple of years ago I made the final out of 60 guys at a man on man shoot off at Front Sight. I got beat by .2 seconds,,, by a 27 year old Ex Scout Sniper fresh back from Afg. I was 68!

I got more mileage for 2nd place than he got by winning. I shot my Mini 14. he had a $2500 Daniel Defense AR.

It all depends on what your idea of winning is? Seldom is there any money up for grabs,,, and I can come right up to speed if there was!

Any gun will do,,, if you will do!

Randy
Can you “hit targets” with one out to 500?

Sure.

Are you going one for one on steel out to 500 on the clock with a barrel that’s already cooking from a close range mag dump and then rolling a spinner at 200?

Nope.
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:44   #14
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Originally Posted by Ontos View Post
Can you “hit targets” with one out to 500?

Sure.

Are you going one for one on steel out to 500 on the clock with a barrel that’s already cooking from a close range mag dump and then rolling a spinner at 200?

Nope.
Well,,, I guess we''d just have to see if I could do it,,, or not.

What YOU think about my skills and equipment is irrelevant. You have never seen me, let alone seen me shoot.

Your entire opinion is based on internet BS!

Oh, and I seriously doubt YOU could go 1 for 1 on 5, 500 yard targets.

Let's see a pic of your gun?
Which matches do you go to?
How deep is the talent pool there?
Where do you place at those matches?

And most importantly HOW OLD ARE YOU?

Randy
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Old 07-16-2020, 13:57   #15
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Well,,, I guess we''d just have to see if I could do it,,, or not.

What YOU think about my skills and equipment is irrelevant. You have never seen me, let alone seen me shoot.

Your entire opinion is based on internet BS!

Oh, and I seriously doubt YOU could go 1 for 1 on 5, 500 yard targets.

Let's see a pic of your gun?
Which matches do you go to?
How deep is the talent pool there?
Where do you place at those matches?

And most importantly HOW OLD ARE YOU?

Randy
I’m mid-40’s.

My entire opinion is based upon being an active competitor on the regional/national level, a couple of decades of competitive shooting experience, having done this professionally as a military/LE contract trainer both domestically and overseas and as a military contractor.

Currently I shoot 3-Gun and USPSA heavily, IDPA and PRS occasionally and just returned from the USPSA National Championships for multigun and PCC. Over the years I’ve picked up my fair share of wins.

One for one on steel at speed in a match setting on an array like that isn’t terribly difficult for anyone who knows what their dope is, and has been shooting actively for a couple of years.

As far as the other questions... This is my usual Tac-Ops stick, but I’ll run it in Open as well. Faxon 18” Gunner with Rifle gas, lightweight JP internals, Kahles K16i, etc. Bay stage gun for matches inside 300 yards is roughly the same but a P/W 14.5 and carbon fiber furniture.

Locally, we’ve got a lot of talent between GM’s and sponsored shooters. I have to have a disaster if I’m outside of the top 3. I do fairly well at majors.

What matches or venues do you participate in regularly?
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First off, let's define "worst case", because my "worst case" scenerio is probably somewhat different than yours.

Last edited by Ontos; 07-16-2020 at 14:54.
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Old 07-16-2020, 16:47   #16
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I'm not in your league and I'm not Professional. I just shoot for fun. I'm 70 years old. You'd be one of the ones I'd run from. Have I seen you on TV? Are you Retired? Big money in "contracting." They didn't have that 40 years ago when I was 30,,, and you were just born?.

I shoot at my Local Clubs and occasionally at the Piru CA 3 Gun and PCC events which used to be home of USPSA until they got fed up with CA BS and moved it all back east. I can't run with the kids out there, but I do better at the smaller shoots.

Dope? 200 yard zero, +12" at 300 + 30" at 400 + 60" at 500 Kind of far for a Red Dot Sight, but fairly easy with a scope. I have a 4 3/4" 5 shot group on the 500 M Pink Ram at Piru with my Ruger Scout. +3.1 mils on that one.

This gun might be able to make repeated 500 yard shots with a hot barrel.


Randy
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Old 07-16-2020, 16:54   #17
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You do business with what ya got. Example of Marines versus MMA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RPiA27uC8A

One mind, many weapons. I practice with what I have. Right now I have been practicing shotgun a lot. Learned to reload double 0h for it. FNH SLP. Works great.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:03   #18
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Originally Posted by Herman Munster View Post
We should all be celebrating each others experiences and learning from those. Mr Ontos just comes across a bit abrasive due to the braggadocio's of a competitor. We are all on the same side of patriots who embrace the second amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
I am an expert shot on wild game without using all the gimmicks of range finding, or a 5k scope that goes from 1-30x or whatever. I have taken several quadrupeds on the run and that is a true marksman in my very humble opinion.
That’s cool and all, but the question was about non-ARs in a competitive setting.

Questions were asked about how my opinion on the subject was formed and I answered them.
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Old 07-22-2020, 08:33   #19
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Actually no question was asked by the OP.

I was just using this thread as a way to collect video of rifle matches that were not AR's.

It was not meant to be anything more.

I doubt any reasonable person thinks the AR does not reign supreme in a match setting, I was just looking for data out of curiosity.

InRange does a lot of non traditional 2 gun matches just to see what it was like to say run a match with a ww1 rifle, a lever action etc.
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Old 07-22-2020, 08:37   #20
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WR

I nearly built one of those in 6.5 Grendel....but life.

I wanted to take advantage of the plethora or AR components but still have it in a more hunting rifle form.
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Old 07-23-2020, 16:56   #21
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Yeah I've been trying to get a hold of them but they are essentially closed right now.

I need a Monte Carlo Buttstock for mine, and I am hoping they have done some mods to the trigger as mine has no wall, and it is completely unpredictable as to when the shot will break. There is no point where you can tell that it is about to go off and apply some more pressure to get it to let off the same way each time. You just pull until it goes off. Would kill for a decent 2 stage or one with no creep.

Randy
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Old 07-24-2020, 09:12   #22
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Here's one for Ontos,,, if he's still watching.

How do you think you would do shooting a Mini 14 in one of your matches?

I don't expect you to win, but could you at least be "Competitive?" If not, why not?

Is the gun really that big a part of your success, or could you run a different weapon and still do well?

I'll even make is easier,,, How about running a Ruger AR 5.56? Could you work with a inexpensive AR and be competitive?

Randy
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Old 07-25-2020, 11:50   #23
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
Here's one for Ontos,,, if he's still watching.

How do you think you would do shooting a Mini 14 in one of your matches?

I don't expect you to win, but could you at least be "Competitive?" If not, why not?

Is the gun really that big a part of your success, or could you run a different weapon and still do well?

I'll even make is easier,,, How about running a Ruger AR 5.56? Could you work with a inexpensive AR and be competitive?

Randy
I would do ok in Bay stages as long as I had a good optic and the shooting wasn’t terribly technical.

Technical shooting and reloads are going to hurt you do to practical accuracy and slow reloads. If there’s an unloaded table start you’re kinda hosed because an unloaded start is really clunky and slow with a Mini as you have to rock the mag in and either charge with your master hand (really slow and clunky), or roll it to the left 90° and charge with the weak hand (slightly faster, more clunky).

Everything would really depend on the long range stage. Big plates out to 300? Might be ok but not great. 300 to 500 and the weaknesses of the Mini become more apparent.

More technical **** like a spinner at 100/150 yards or a plate rack at 150-200 and it’s all over. A mini simply doesn’t have the accuracy or smoothness to keep you running under par.

I’ve seen so many Roger AR’s with serious QA/QC issues that I’d want to strip it down and inspect and test run it before any match. Assuming that it’ll run, I could do alright. Administrative actions would be same-same as any other AR. Where you would be hurt is the fact that they’re typically way overpassed so they don’t run smoothly, which will hurt you with technical shooting and on the long range.

A good shooter with a crappy rifle will still be competitive, but you’ll probably fall a couple of places in the standing. At large matches or my local matches where we have a deep talent pool the top 5/10 positions are typically fractions of a second apart. I’ll win or lose stages because I put my foot in the right/wrong Place coming around a barricade and it made a 0.15 second difference.

In terms of what wins matches:
Stage strategy
Overall technical skill
Raw speed
Gear


But they’re all very important.
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Old 07-25-2020, 15:37   #24
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OK, good answers. I realize that hundredths of seconds count in your game, and at big matches. Where I'm competing, not as much.

My gun which I've tuned over the years is MOA, with a Red Dot.



I can hit a 8" plate at 200 yards off a rest 10/10 every time. Past that the deficiency of the sighting system shows and hits decrease.

The magazine issue is learnable. I've seen way too many guys not pull down on their AR Mags to check seating and end up with type one malfunctions. Same holds true with Mini's and especially with Tac Reloads against a closed bolt. Very easy to screw that up.

As far as the movement in the stages that is where I lose out just about every time. I'm not even close to where I was even 10 years ago. I can't really shoot that well on the move and it is something I need to practice in my back yard before my next shoot on 8/2

The main purpose of competition is to build individual confidence by winning r in my case by just shooting well. Once you start winning, you know that you can, and it then becomes all about not making mistakes that keep you from winning. At that level,,, He who makes the least mistakes usually wins.

I supplemented my income in my late teens and early 20's playing Pool in Bars. I learned to assess others skills by watching them play and how they talked, and knew better than to play guys I knew I couldn't beat. I learned that I played better if there was something of value to win. I also knew when to get out so I didn't get my Arse kicked,,, Learned most of that part in Texas in 1969-71. Sometimes you just have to let the Wookie Win!

I can tell if someone knows what he is talking about just by listening to him for a few minutes. A person who knows should be able to describe what he does in simple everyday language. As opposed using words like "Existential Threats and Gender Identity" which nobody understands.

Shooting competitions are preparations for the real thing, and that's why I go. I know I can beat 95% of those I might come up against as a result of my training.

You've been there and done that on both sides and I admire and respect that experience.

You know what you are talking about, and on a two way range you'd be one I'd run from. I know I can't beat you strait up and I've never even seen you shoot. I could tell by the way you look, and the way you hold your gun.

You would probably also know in that scenario,,, I'd shoot you in the back as soon as I got a chance.

I doubt that will ever happen cuz we'd probably be on the same side!!!

Some guy once said,,, "if you are going to a Fair Fight, Your Tactics Suck!"

But you knew that,,, You're from Texas!

Randy
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It's not how well you do what you know how to do, it's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 07-25-2020 at 15:57.
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