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Old 01-13-2014, 20:59   #26
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Originally Posted by madmax3910 View Post
China's "Carrier Killer" missile IS as bad as it sounds no doubt; I have seen the actual classified stats on it and it makes people nervous to say the least. Could they take a carrier with one? absolutely, but they know exactly what would follow and no one is willing to pay that price. Hell, Iran could take one in the straight of Hormuz if they really wanted to, but like I said, they know exactly what would happen VERY soon after.

The biggest thing with taking China is that there would be no invasion of airspace, their IADS (Integrated Air Defense System) will make any pilots fart box pucker up reeeeeeal tight...and the same systems are shipborn as well. This is why they want the islands so badly, thus they will have extended the IADS umbrella that much further. We know its coming with China, we have been training for that for quite some time now, just like they have been training for us.

It would be a "Blockade" type of fight with these guys; stop all merchant ships and starve them out basically, and it wouldnt take long either; that million man army eats a big ole bunch of food everyday, and seeing as how they were bright enough to build their nuclear facilities high in the mountains, and allow the waste to trickle down from the top, they have rendered much of their farmland sterile and unable to grow crops. That coupled with us not making that monthly payment anymore, their entire economy would collapse in no time and they would be eating one another before you knew it.

Of course this would be bad for everyone because it would destroy the world economy with it. The next 10 to 15 years are going to very interesting to say the very least.
Here's more on the Sino missile developments. This one's not the DF21D but a relative: Hypersonic arms race: China tests high-speed missile to beat U.S. defenses - Washington Times

I do think that you're right that a war will be built around isolation tactics - unrestricted U-boat warfare, to use an earlier generation's language. It will backfire on the Chinese if I don't miss my guess, even if its limited to Japan. The JMSDF are quite good sub hunters and the latest generation Japanese hunter-killer boats really are first rate from all accounts. Japan Quietly Builds Limited Counter-A2/AD Capabilities | Defense News | defensenews.com

On the other hand, China appears to be pushing the envelope with their "first island chain" strategy: Chinese troops to seize Zhongye Island back from the Philippines in 2014 | China Daily Mail

Here's a specific article on the "first island chain" strategy: People's Liberation Navy - Doctrine Development

Could just be another flash in the pan, but with things heating up in the Far East I would keep an eye on it. Not that there's anything any of us can do to affect it, but it will cause ripples through the world economy at its onset. Availability of some manufactured goods will be affected, etc. Think computer parts, electronic components, as disappearing in short order, that sort of thing. Optics too - while Chinese scopes aren't the best by a long shot, they are the bottom tier of the market and they help keep prices down on superior Philippine and Japanese glass. Of course they may not be too available either, in the event of a general war there.

Best,
Grumpy
PS While not strictly germane to the thread, here is a fascinating article on life in China by a long term expat: "You'll never be Chinese" by Mark Kitto | China Daily Mail

Last edited by grumpy_old_man; 01-13-2014 at 21:23.
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Old 01-13-2014, 21:24   #27
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Yeah you know most folks dont even think of Japan as being much in the way of a force anymore but you are correct there, those guys may not have the biggest force out there but what they have is not to be taken lightly...especially the Hunter-Killers. I remember when North Korea tested that missile a few years back that flew over Japan; we were all in the office the next day talking about how quickly they could kick the grits out of NK and then just cruise on back home. Would have been soooooo funny to see that thing fizzle out and stick in the sand on the beach somewhere in Japan.
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Old 01-13-2014, 21:26   #28
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Talking Am I missing something ?

Is there hardly anyone here over the age of 10 or what ?

Guess some of these folks here believe that crap they hear at them supremacy revivals after all ! ................................... ..
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Old 01-13-2014, 21:42   #29
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Originally Posted by madmax3910 View Post
Yeah you know most folks dont even think of Japan as being much in the way of a force anymore but you are correct there, those guys may not have the biggest force out there but what they have is not to be taken lightly...especially the Hunter-Killers. I remember when North Korea tested that missile a few years back that flew over Japan; we were all in the office the next day talking about how quickly they could kick the grits out of NK and then just cruise on back home. Would have been soooooo funny to see that thing fizzle out and stick in the sand on the beach somewhere in Japan.
Japan vs DPRK? Now that would be ugly - for the DPRK. ROK's have a land border so are vulnerable to conventional assault. Worse that Seoul is easy meat for arty. OTOH, JASDF and JMSDF would kick the butts on the DPRK's navy all the way home and you'd hear the pilots shouts of "Yatta!!" from the ground, no radio necessary.

Thing about China though is its sheer size, combined with its inter-connectedness to our economy. And the craven, spineless POS red in the White House isn't helping (us) any. US civilian gov't could make a real ****-up of the thing when by rights we should be able to force feed the PLAN a diet of Harpoon, Tomahawk and STD missiles without any problem.

Problem for the economies in the area is that it will be a lot easier to disrupt civilian shipping than it will be to restore confidence in cleared sea lanes. Thinking about it, if the Chinese were losing I could easily see them spoil sporting by releasing large numbers of old style naval mines. Cheap, a PITA to clear, and unless you can assure ship owners that the lanes are clear they won't want to go there.

Still hope its all speculation, but the PLAN seems to be getting pretty big for its britches of late.

Best,
Grumpy
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:03   #30
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Originally Posted by Stillwater View Post
I think the old Samurai philosophy, and mindset, still lingers in the male side of the Japanese culture. It may beginning to reassert it's self under the latest Prime Minister.

Bill
Agreed, i believe that many count Japan out, the resurgence is just testosterone having room to breath and not being punished. The beast sooner or later comes out to play...
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:14   #31
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All of this is really familiar from the 1960's. I guess its because paranoids are so predictable, so repetitive. They are the only type of mentality that can be imitated perfectly by a computer program.


There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down


Buffalo Springfield
For What It's Worth
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:58   #32
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War is not inevitable, 99.9% of the time. Smart people find a way around it. Dumb people rush into it.
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Old 01-14-2014, 15:30   #33
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Originally Posted by madmax3910 View Post
Yeah you know most folks dont even think of Japan as being much in the way of a force anymore but you are correct there, those guys may not have the biggest force out there but what they have is not to be taken lightly...especially the Hunter-Killers. I remember when North Korea tested that missile a few years back that flew over Japan; we were all in the office the next day talking about how quickly they could kick the grits out of NK and then just cruise on back home. Would have been soooooo funny to see that thing fizzle out and stick in the sand on the beach somewhere in Japan.
Necessity is the mother of invention...
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:30   #34
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Originally Posted by spacewolf223 View Post
Necessity is the mother of invention...
And here I thought that Frank Zappa was the mother of invention...
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:59   #35
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Originally Posted by grumpy_old_man View Post
Here's more on the Sino missile developments. This one's not the DF21D but a relative: Hypersonic arms race: China tests high-speed missile to beat U.S. defenses - Washington Times
To date hypersonic flight's been a miserable disappointment. it's a lot easier and cheaper to build a ballistic missile, which the Chinese did with the DF-21, and intertheatre conventional armed ballistic missile. But the problem with that is the high altitude trajectory that makes it easily detectable.

As part of the US ABM and theatre defense programs the Navy has developed, and deployed last year, ballistic missile defense capability on its Aegis destroyers, neutralizing the DF-21D.

Wikipedia: DF-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States Navy has responded by switching its focus from a close blockade force of shallow water vessels to return to building deep water ballistic defense destroyers.[18] The United States has also assigned most of its ballistic missile defense capable ships to the Pacific, extended the BMD program to all Aegis destroyers and increased procurement of SM-3 BMD missiles.[19] The United States also has a large network optimized for tracking ballistic missile launches which may give carrier groups sufficient warning in order to move away from the target area while the missile is in flight.[20]

There was the same sort of hyperventilating about the Soviet supersonic ramjet anti-ship missiles about 40 years ago. Before it even hit the newspapers the USN had defenses against the Soviet missiles. I worked on target drones to test them - not an easy job because the fuel burn rate at low altitudes and high speeds was so high.
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Old 01-15-2014, 09:44   #36
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To have a viable defence against your enemies is useless without the willingness to use it.

Just sayin'...
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:13   #37
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Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
To date hypersonic flight's been a miserable disappointment. it's a lot easier and cheaper to build a ballistic missile, which the Chinese did with the DF-21, and intertheatre conventional armed ballistic missile. But the problem with that is the high altitude trajectory that makes it easily detectable.

As part of the US ABM and theatre defense programs the Navy has developed, and deployed last year, ballistic missile defense capability on its Aegis destroyers, neutralizing the DF-21D.

Wikipedia: DF-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States Navy has responded by switching its focus from a close blockade force of shallow water vessels to return to building deep water ballistic defense destroyers.[18] The United States has also assigned most of its ballistic missile defense capable ships to the Pacific, extended the BMD program to all Aegis destroyers and increased procurement of SM-3 BMD missiles.[19] The United States also has a large network optimized for tracking ballistic missile launches which may give carrier groups sufficient warning in order to move away from the target area while the missile is in flight.[20]

There was the same sort of hyperventilating about the Soviet supersonic ramjet anti-ship missiles about 40 years ago. Before it even hit the newspapers the USN had defenses against the Soviet missiles. I worked on target drones to test them - not an easy job because the fuel burn rate at low altitudes and high speeds was so high.
1. Its not hyperventilating to keep an eye on enemy developments. Make no mistake, the PLA and PLAN are enemy organizations to the US, long term.
2. Moving US assets out of shallow waters into the deep blue is actually in accordance with Chinese planning. Its in the A2/AD and first island chain strategy document. Where it gets interesting is when they try to push us out to the second island chain for their defense in depth.
3. US does not always develop weapons systems and counters to enemy weapons systems effectively and under the obama regime I have less confidence than usual that we will succeed. Under Carter, the B61 physics package was known to be unreliable yet it and its missile mounted W61 physics package were the backbone of our deterrent force structure.
4. Whether or not the Chinese military is as capable as it thinks it is, is irrelevant for whether or not they will take hostile action at some point. Miscalculations are probably the most common element in much of history.
5. As has correctly pointed out by others, lions led by lambs is not a good situation. Our current civvy leadership is the worst I have seen in my life - and since that includes Johnson, Carter, and Clinton, that really is saying something. I have confidence that in a crunch, obama will do the wrong thing. I may rephrase that as "lions led by incompetent lambs" when referring to the current situation.

Respectfully,
Grumpy
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Old 01-15-2014, 16:40   #38
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Originally Posted by grumpy_old_man View Post
1. Its not hyperventilating to keep an eye on enemy developments. Make no mistake, the PLA and PLAN are enemy organizations to the US, long term.
2. Moving US assets out of shallow waters into the deep blue is actually in accordance with Chinese planning. Its in the A2/AD and first island chain strategy document. Where it gets interesting is when they try to push us out to the second island chain for their defense in depth.
3. US does not always develop weapons systems and counters to enemy weapons systems effectively and under the obama regime I have less confidence than usual that we will succeed. Under Carter, the B61 physics package was known to be unreliable yet it and its missile mounted W61 physics package were the backbone of our deterrent force structure.
4. Whether or not the Chinese military is as capable as it thinks it is, is irrelevant for whether or not they will take hostile action at some point. Miscalculations are probably the most common element in much of history.
5. As has correctly pointed out by others, lions led by lambs is not a good situation. Our current civvy leadership is the worst I have seen in my life - and since that includes Johnson, Carter, and Clinton, that really is saying something. I have confidence that in a crunch, obama will do the wrong thing. I may rephrase that as "lions led by incompetent lambs" when referring to the current situation.

Respectfully,
Grumpy
Indeed. In fact I often wonder who's side this guy is on with his smug don't worry be happy attitude. He often comes off sounding like our favorite commie with a conservative twist in fact. Of course that's just my opinion.

No respect intended, as little if any is given,
Parnelli
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:11   #39
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Originally Posted by usmc View Post
Attachment 25161

Attachment 25162

Attachment 25163

Attachment 25164

Attachment 25165$h!twaters be nice you major @$$hole.Not only do I build my own weapons ,I'm pretty good with them too. USMC Semper Fi.
Mini-14. A nice choice in firearms, usmc.

How long have you owned this weapon?
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Old 01-16-2014, 15:31   #40
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I've taken usma (small fonts) off of ignore, because I wanted to see this post.

I have a hard, apropos question, I would like to ask, where did usmc (small fonts) get the WHITE MANS hand in the photograph...?

usmc's ability as a Marine, wouldn't even make a small pimple on a poor Marine's ASS...!

I've taken freesw off of ignore also. I have some things to say, in reply to his Socialist gibberish posts.

Bill

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Old 01-16-2014, 16:35   #41
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You don't know anything about my posts, Billy, ever since you opted to deprive yourself of them. That's how the ignore feature works.

There is a lot of gibberish in this forum alright .. from those cultists proclaiming, loudly and often, how determined they are to stick to their "ignore" pledges. Entire threads are dedicated to that proposition.
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Old 01-16-2014, 16:38   #42
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
You don't know anything about my posts, Billy, ever since you opted to deprive yourself of them. That's how the ignore feature works.
I see you are still talking just to hear your head rattle...!

Bill
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Old 01-16-2014, 16:41   #43
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I won't engage a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
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Old 01-16-2014, 16:44   #44
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
I won't engage a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
Thats right, we're all armed men here..., all of those that oppose you that is...!

All you are, Freesw, is a huge ejaculator of nonsenical socialist verbiage...!

Bill
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Old 01-16-2014, 18:01   #45
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Originally Posted by Parnelli View Post
And here I thought that Frank Zappa was the mother of invention...
He was off in Montana being a dental floss tycoon
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Old 01-16-2014, 18:03   #46
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Originally Posted by Stillwater View Post
Thats right, we're all armed men here..., all of those that oppose you that is...!

All you are, Freesw, is a huge ejaculator of nonsenical socialist verbiage...!

Bill
"Solipsist God of Mental Masturbation" to be sure.
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Old 01-16-2014, 18:07   #47
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One of the points i'd like to make is that most Americans see China and Russia as "trading partners" not enemies, which let's not kid ourselves they are. I may admire Putin for his skill, but have no qualms that Putin will do what's good for Russia and Putin, and if he can bury america and the west he'll do it, so will the Chinese. Does no one understand that 95% of the world has been eating $hit sandwhiches from the west for over a 100 years? Only in potus's post racial world do people expect others to forget and "get along"
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Old 01-16-2014, 18:13   #48
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I will add to this thread, that reads like Jane's book of fighting ships, (hat's off to the homework!), the Navy's new Littoral Combat Ships have been a sad waste of money having chatted with some big shoulder boards in San Dog this past fall.

Mine counter measures haven't progressed as desired and towed array systems (supposedly improved) are not (improved).
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Old 01-16-2014, 18:13   #49
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Gee, I thought Freesw, the Liberal pride of wussyfication, would be out here railiing about how we freedom lovers are everything that is evil.

Did he get shut down for a while?

Bill
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Old 01-16-2014, 18:15   #50
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