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Old 05-14-2007, 10:44   #1
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The legitimacy of assault rifles and the Second Amendment

[Transferring from another discussion started in another thread.]


Nobody wrote:

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The "automatic" requirement for a weapon to be an "assault weapon" is no longer relevant. Most soldiers' M-16s are set to semiautomatic because it has been determined that "full auto" merely wastes ammunition; it doesn't get more kills. Full auto weapons allow three or four trigger presses before magazine changes are needed; the 3-round burst setting allows 10 presses.

A case in point is the FAL battle rifle. The rifle was practically uncontrollable unless fired semiautomatically, so the rifle was usually issued as a semiautomatic military weapon. I think that it is a certainty that the people shot with the FAL didn't know the difference.

The 2nd Amendment is NOT about guaranteeing the right to shoot ducks and hunt deer; its about the right to kill bad people: tyrants and the minions who empower them. Its about preserving citizen's rights to own the weapons that are the most effective at killing bad people, not game. It's about guaranteeing the right to own assault rifles, battle rifles, and pistols; not skeet guns, .22 target pistols, and single shot rifles.

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Magnomark wrote:

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On the 2nd ammendment;Well said-Nobody!

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JasonAC556 wrote:


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Again, well said. Anyone who has done ANY research into the original intent of our founding fathers when they wrote the Second Ammendment would know that they meant for the AVERAGE RESPONSIBLE CITIZEN to be able to resist any form of tyranny from the Government that serves them. They never meant for the AVERAGE CITIZEN to be subjugated to the will of the Government. The Second Ammendment is what protects all the other ammendments. The Government SHOULD BE AFRAID of it's citizens, not the other way around.

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Crazy8 wrote:

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You are correct Federally the Second Amendment does not specify hunting however some State Constitutions expand on the meaning of the 2A to specify hunting as being protected.

Some may find these State Constitutions educational as pertaining to the Second Amendment of the United States. 1776 through 1998

1776 North Carolina: That the people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
1776 Pennsylvania: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil power.
1777 Vermont: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State -- and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power.
1780 Massachusetts: The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.
1790 Pennsylvania: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
1792 Kentucky: That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
1796 Tennessee: That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.
1799 Kentucky: That the rights of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
1802 Ohio: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State; and as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be kept up, and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to the civil power.
1816 Indiana: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State, and that the military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power.
1817 Mississippi: Every citizen has a right to bear arms, in defence of himself and the State.
1818 Connecticut: Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.
1819 Maine: Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence; and this right shall never be questioned.
1819 Alabama: That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defence of himself and the state.
1820 Missouri: That the people have the right peaceably to assemble for their common good, and to apply to those vested with the powers of government for redress of grievances by petition or remonstrance; and that their right to bear arms in defence of themselves and of the State cannot be questioned.
1832 Mississippi: Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defence of himself and of the State.
1834 Tennessee: That the free white men of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.
1835 Michigan: Every person has a right to bear arms for the defence of himself and the State.
1836 Texas: Every citizen shall have the right to bear arms in defence of himself and the republic. The military shall at all times and in all cases be subordinate to the civil power.
1836 Arkansas: That the free white men of this State shall have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.
1838 Florida: That the free white men of this State shall have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence.
1842 Rhode Island: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
1845 Texas: Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in lawful defence of himself or the State.
1850 Kentucky: That the rights of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned; but the General Assembly may pass laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed arms.
1850 Michigan: Every person has a right to bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
1851 Ohio: The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.
1851 Indiana: The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State [military subordination clause removed].
1857 Oregon: The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power[.]
1859 Kansas: The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.
1865 Missouri: That the people have the right peaceably to assemble for their common good, and to apply to those vested with the powers of government for redress of grievances by petition or remonstrance; and that their right to bear arms in defence of themselves and of the lawful authority of the State cannot be questioned.
1865 Georgia: A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
1865 Florida: Clause omitted.
1868 Texas: Every person shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defence of himself or the State, under such regulations as the legislature may prescribe.
1868 North Carolina: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up, and the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
1868 Florida: The people shall have the right to bear arms in defence of themselves and of the lawful authority of the State.
1868 South Carolina: The people have a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence. As, in times of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained without the consent of the General Assembly. The military power of the State shall always be held in subordination to the civil authority and be governed by it.
1868 Mississippi: All persons shall have a right to keep and bear arms for their defence.
1868 Georgia: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free people, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but the general assembly shall have power to prescribe by law the manner in which arms may be borne.
1868 Arkansas: The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense.
1870 Tennessee: That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.
1875 Missouri: That the right of no citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power, when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question; but nothing herein contained is intended to justify the practice of wearing concealed weapons.
1875 North Carolina: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up, and the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein contained shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the Legislature from enacting penal statutes against said practice.
1876 Colorado: The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.
1876 Texas: Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
1877 Georgia: [Militia clause deleted.] The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but the General Assembly shall have power to prescribe the manner in which arms may be borne.
1879 Louisiana: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged. This shall not prevent the passage of laws to punish those who carry weapons concealed.
1885 Florida: The right of the people to bear arms in defence of themselves and the lawful authority of the State, shall not be infringed, but the Legislature may prescribe the manner in which they may be borne.
1889 Washington: The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.
1889 Wyoming: The right of citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied.
1889 South Dakota: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied.
1889 Montana: The right of any person to keep or bear arms in defense of his own home, person, and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but nothing herein contained shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons.
1889 Idaho: The people have the right to bear arms for their security and defense; but the Legislature shall regulate the exercise of this right by law.
1890 Mississippi: The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.
1891 Kentucky: All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned: First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties. . . . Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.
1895 South Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As, in times of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained without the consent of the General Assembly. The military power of the State shall always be held in subordination to the civil authority and be governed by it.
1896 Utah: The people have the right to bear arms for their security and defense, but the legislature may regulate the exercise of this right by law.
1901 Alabama: That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.
1907 Oklahoma: The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power, when thereunto legally summoned, shall never be prohibited; but nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from regulating the carrying of weapons.
1912 Arizona: The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.
1912 New Mexico: The people have the right to bear arms for their security and defense, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons.
1945 Missouri: That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.
1959 Hawaii: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
1959 Alaska: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
1963 Michigan: Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
1968 Florida: The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.
1970 Illinois: Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
1971 North Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein [word omitted] shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.
1971 New Mexico: No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons.
1971 Virginia: That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
1974 Louisiana: [Militia clause deleted.] The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.
1978 Idaho: The people have the right to keep and bear arms [qualifiers omitted], which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony.
1982 Nevada: Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes.
1982 New Hampshire: All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.
1984 North Dakota: All individuals are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation; pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness; and to keep and bear arms for the defense of their person, family, property, and the state, and for lawful hunting, recreational, and other lawful purposes, which shall not be infringed.
1984 Utah: The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the legislature from defining the lawful use of arms.
1986 West Virginia: A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and state, and for lawful hunting and recreational use.
1986 New Mexico: No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.
1987 Delaware: A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.
1987 Maine: Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms [for the common defence omitted] and this right shall never be questioned.
1988 Nebraska: All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights; among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied or infringed by the state or any subdivision thereof. To secure these rights, and the protection of property, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
1990 Florida: (a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law. (b) There shall be a mandatory period of three days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and delivery at retail of any handgun. For the purposes of this section, "purchase" means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer, and "handgun" means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. Holders of a concealed weapon permit as prescribed in Florida law shall not be subject to the provisions of this paragraph. (c) The legislature shall enact legislation implementing subsection (b) of this section, effective no later than December 31, 1991, which shall provide that anyone violating the provisions of subsection (b) shall be guilty of a felony. (d) This restriction shall not apply to a trade in of another handgun.
1994 Alaska: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.
1998 Wisconsin: The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

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Old 05-14-2007, 13:03   #2
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2a

Thanks for the new thread timlt,

I also like the subject of the Second Amendment State and Federal , I do believe the reason the framers left out the Asult-Musket hunting part from the Federal 2A was hunting was something most everyone did back in the day and didn’t really need addressing. (GOD Given Right of survival I would say).
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Old 05-14-2007, 14:12   #3
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Assault Musket!!! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!1
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Old 05-15-2007, 20:08   #4
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Assault Musket

Our Founding Fathers had every intent for we lowly citizens to be armed at least as well as any standing army. All you need to do is read the Federalist Papers or any number of the Jefferson letters to determine this.

The framers of our Constitution had just fought a war against a tyrantical government that severely restricted the rights of its SUBJECTS (not citizens) to bear arms. Therefore, they knew the importance of a well armed citizenry to prevent any such tyranny from ever occuring again. One only needs to read the Constitution in it's entirety to fully understand the gravity of our Forefathers desire to limit the power of the Central Government.

As for hunting versus the common defense in the context of what types of arms we should be allowed to own as private citizens I can say this: The Pensylvania Long Rifle (aka Kentucky Rifle) was the M16 of the 18th century. It was cutting edge technology of the time. The French Charlevelle Musket was the AK47 of the day. These two weapons are what bought our freedom from the Crown. Long and short of it is that our Founders meant for the citizenry to be at least as well armed as any standing army. Therefore, .....THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!!!!!
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Old 05-16-2007, 21:48   #5
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Originally Posted by JasonAC556 View Post
Our Founding Fathers had every intent for we lowly citizens to be armed at least as well as any standing army. All you need to do is read the Federalist Papers or any number of the Jefferson letters to determine this.

The framers of our Constitution had just fought a war against a tyrantical government that severely restricted the rights of its SUBJECTS (not citizens) to bear arms. Therefore, they knew the importance of a well armed citizenry to prevent any such tyranny from ever occuring again. One only needs to read the Constitution in it's entirety to fully understand the gravity of our Forefathers desire to limit the power of the Central Government.

As for hunting versus the common defense in the context of what types of arms we should be allowed to own as private citizens I can say this: The Pensylvania Long Rifle (aka Kentucky Rifle) was the M16 of the 18th century. It was cutting edge technology of the time. The French Charlevelle Musket was the AK47 of the day. These two weapons are what bought our freedom from the Crown. Long and short of it is that our Founders meant for the citizenry to be at least as well armed as any standing army. Therefore, .....THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!!!!!
"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"
So what are you going to do if they infringe my friend?

I liked this (QUOTE) "I can say this: The Pennsylvania Long Rifle (aka Kentucky Rifle) was the M16 of the 18th century. It was cutting edge technology of the time".
{ME}
True on the Kentucky Rifle part but not True on the AR part. The Kentucky rifle didn't jam on a grains of dirt, the Kentucky rifle was a black powder and a flint lock rifle that can’t jam like the AR: Rifling was new in the 17xx/s and accuracy was greatly improved over a short time so we smoked the Brits in ambush thank GOD. Now it is considered treason for us doing the same thing now in 2007, so what will we do when the elected elitist in DC Judge us and want your AR or my custom rifle for confiscation because it looks evil ?

Just like the Old Days! What Should American’s (WE) do at this point?

That’s easy, VOTE and VOTE and if that dose not work then we are in the 1776’s again don’t you think.

"Civil rights is what we all strive for isn’t it and not just one part of it"?

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Old 05-17-2007, 18:29   #6
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Thumbs down Our Fellow Patriots of America

Our Fellow Patriots of America have this to say about your tool of choice
Legal Community Against Violence

Most Americans favor stronger gun laws. But the history of the gun violence prevention movement shows that due to the strength of the pro-gun lobby, federal reform, even under favorable political conditions, is difficult to achieve and incremental at best. In the absence of comprehensive federal regulation, it is up to state and local governments to adopt policies to prevent gun violence. Indeed, the future of the gun violence prevention movement depends on building grassroots strength to achieve reform at the state and local level so that, ultimately, nationwide solutions will be more easily achievable. Strong state and local measures can address the concerns of specific communities and regions, improve community health and safety, fill gaps in federal policy, and act as a catalyst for the broader reforms our country needs.

Unfortunately, even in the case of firearms as lethal as assault weapons, Congress has not yet established a loophole-free, permanent ban to ensure that these weapons are not available for civilian use. This year, Congress is debating whether the current federal ban, which expires in September, should be renewed. The ban should not only be renewed, it should be strengthened. Yet to renew the ban as is will be an exceptionally difficult challenge.
Legal Community Against Violence (LCAV) has prepared this report to furnish advocates and public officials with the legal information they need to evaluate and pursue options at the state and local level, options that will fill the gaps in federal law and inspire our national policymakers to ban assault weapons effectively throughout the entire country. We cannot give up on Congress and must continue to advocate for stronger federal law. But we also cannot afford to wait. Too many lives are at stake.
About Legal Community Against Violence

Our Mission and Philosophy

LCAV is a national public interest law center dedicated to preventing gun violence. We focus on policy reform at the state and local level, marshaling the expertise and resources of the legal community to transform America’s gun policies from the grassroots up. LCAV fills a unique role as the first and only lawyers’ organization in the gun violence prevention movement — and the only organization exclusively dedicated to providing legal assistance in support of gun violence prevention.
LCAV believes that commonsense laws and policies are needed to end the epidemic of gun violence in this country. Community education and action are critical to achieving meaningful gun laws and policies. Lawyers bring an essential set of skills to this challenge. By making complex legal and policy issues understandable, conducting legal research, analyzing existing and emerging policy strategies, and generating model regulations, LCAV informs and educates communities, and empowers advocates and governments to pursue effective measures that are legally defensible.

Our History and Connection to the Issue ofAssault Weapons

LCAV was founded in 1993, several days after a gunman with two assault weapons and a 45 caliber semi-automatic pistol shot 14 people, fatally wounding eight of them, at 101 California Street in San Francisco. Recognizing that stronger gun laws might have prevented this massacre and potentially could prevent future tragedies, Bay Area lawyers formed LCAV.
LCAV and its supporters were directly involved in securing the passage of the federal assault weapon ban, enacted as part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. Realizing that the federal ban dealt with just some of the assault weapons being produced or imported — and did nothing about the several million assault weapons already in civilian hands — LCAV has continued to support efforts to strengthen assault weapon bans at the local, state and federal levels. In 1999, with the strong support of LCAV, California expanded and improved its law, making it the most comprehensive assault weapon ban in the country.

II. Why Ban Assault Weapons?

Assault weapons are semi-automatic firearms designed with military features to allow rapid and accurate spray firing. They are not designed for “sport;” they are designed to kill humans quickly and efficiently.
Key assault weapon features include:

• The ability to accept a detachable ammunition magazine, allowing for a higher rate and duration of fire, as well as faster reloading;

• Forward handgrips, barrel shrouds,’ and magazines protruding in front of the trigger,
allowing the shooter to hold the firearm with two hands for greater control during rapid fire (when the muzzle of the gun can quickly get too hot to hold);

• Thumbhole stocks and pistol grips on rifles and shotguns, facilitating spray firing from the hip and permitting increased control of the firearm;

• Folding or telescoping stocks for concealability and mobility in combat; and

• Muzzle brakes/compensators, which help reduce recoil and muzzle movement caused by rapid fire.

‘A barrel shroud is a covering attached to the barrel of a gun, or that partially or completely encircles the barrel, allows the bearer to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.

These features serve to clearly distinguish assault weapons from standard sporting firearms. Some bans on assault weapons, including the federal ban, list other military features (such as bayonet mounts and grenade launchers) that are extraneous to what makes an assault weapon so deadly in civilian hands.

2 Unlike machine guns — fully automatic weapons that continue to fire as long as the trigger is held down (or the ammunition is expended) — semi-automatic assault weapons fire one round of ammunition each time the trigger is pulled. However, assault weapons still can fire many rounds per second, limited only by the speed of the shooter’s trigger finger. Indeed, many experts agree that semi-automatic fire is actually more accurate than automatic fire, and thus more lethal.

3 in short, assault weapons are well designed to perform the military function of killing large numbers of people by making spray firing easy.
Tragically, assault weapons have been all too effective at performing this task. A recent study analyzing FBI data shows that 20% of the law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty from 1998 to 2001 were killed with an assault weapon.4 Some assault rifles are also accurate enough for use as sniper rifles, as illustrated by the D.C. area sniper shootings in October 2002. The end result is the same — more deaths and more injuries.

Mass Shootings Using Assault Weapons — A Tragic History
Partial List
• July 18, 1984— San Ysidro, CA (McDonald’s istaurant) —21 killed, 19 wounded. Firearms included a 9mm UZI rifle.
• April 23, 1987 — Palm Bay, FL (shopping center) —6 killed, 14 wounded. Ruger Mini-14.
• January 17, 1989 — Stockton, CA (elementary school) — 5 children killed, 29 children and 1 teacher wounded. AK-47.
• September 14, 1989 — Louisville, KY (printing plant) — 8 killed, 12 wounded. Fiiarms included two MAC-i is and an AK-47.
• January 25, 1993 — Langley, VA (CIA Headquarters) — 2 employees killed, 3 wounded. AK-47.
• February 28, 1993 — Waco, TX (Branch Davidian compound) — 4 ATF special agents killed, 16 others wounded. Firearms included 123 AR-i5s, 44 AK-47s, 2 Barrett 50 caliber rifles, 2 Street Sweepers, and an unknown number of MAC-b and MAC-i is.
• July 1, 1993 — San Francisco, CA (office building) — 8 killed, 6 wounded (one of the wounded subsequently
died). Firearms included two TEC-DC9s.
• April 20, 1999 — Columbine, CO (high school) — 13 killed, 23 wounded. Firearms included a TEC-DC9.
• October 2002 — Washington, D.C. area (sniper shootings) — 10 killed, 3 wounded during a 3-week period. Bushmaster XM-i5 E25 rifle (not banned under the federal assault weapon law, but banned as an assault weapon in California, Connecticut, Maryland and New Jersey).

This is only part of 72 pages of BS now I can feel safe and all fuzzy.
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Old 05-17-2007, 18:55   #7
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Since when did common sense ever get in the way of a liberals Utopian ideal of what makes the world a better place? Crazy8, my friend, this is absolutely the same old tired rhetoric the left has been espousing for years. Why should this come as any surprise. You are NEVER going to change the attitude of these types of people because they do not allow logic or reason to get in the way of their opinions.

However, you are correct in your assertion that the way to change the landscape of this issue is to VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!!!!!! We need to install people in our Government that will be effective in protecting our rights and who fully appreciate what our founders were trying to accomplish by giving us the right to bear arms.

Well, that is not entirely correct; we also need to EDUCATE ALL of the people we come into contact with as to what gun ownership REALLY MEANS!! Talk to your neighbors, friends, and coworkers about the true intent of our founders: Forget all about "sporting" use and such garbage. The vast majority of people have no clue as to why we have the right to bear arms as Americans. Maybe if we teach them what it is truely about they may start to vote correctly as well.
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Old 05-17-2007, 21:10   #8
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Thumbs up debating the issues

Originally Posted by JasonAC556 View Post
Since when did common sense ever get in the way of a liberals Utopian ideal of what makes the world a better place? Crazy8, my friend, this is absolutely the same old tired rhetoric the left has been espousing for years. Why should this come as any surprise. You are NEVER going to change the attitude of these types of people because they do not allow logic or reason to get in the way of their opinions.

However, you are correct in your assertion that the way to change the landscape of this issue is to VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!!!!!! We need to install people in our Government that will be effective in protecting our rights and who fully appreciate what our founders were trying to accomplish by giving us the right to bear arms.

Well, that is not entirely correct; we also need to EDUCATE ALL of the people we come into contact with as to what gun ownership REALLY MEANS!! Talk to your neighbors, friends, and coworkers about the true intent of our founders: Forget all about "sporting" use and such garbage. The vast majority of people have no clue as to why we have the right to bear arms as Americans. Maybe if we teach them what it is truely about they may start to vote correctly as well.
Yes Sir JasonAC556, you are very correct in your post and I fully agree with you but I must address one point in your post. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you wrote or how you phrased it. “We need to install people in our Government that will be effective in protecting our rights and who fully appreciate what our founders were trying to accomplish by giving us the right to bear arms”. I do not disagree with you but I look at it in a different way but in the end, we meet on the same road.

(ME) God gave us the right to self defense and survival not the government so that puts the onus on We the People to protect our civil rights and the way I understand the situation is the elected Government officials take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. If they stray from that oath as many do at present times we need to take action, anyway we can as good citizens and should get rid of the punks. Voting, yes, that is the only way to do it and hopefully we educate enough to stop the assault on our Civil rights and I mean all of them not just the 2nd.

You and I are not at all in disagreement my friend we have just taken a very small but different way of coming to the same conclusion in our mind.
I enjoy reading your posts and debating the issues with you thanks for commenting and take care.

If you were, or are now in the Armed Services "Thank you" for answering the call too duty. I truly wish I was young enough to kick some ass over in the sand box but at XX I am a old geezer Now according to some but a very well regulated and armed Geezer at that.

Homeland Defense Baby that’s what it is all about!
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Old 05-20-2007, 19:17   #9
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God given right.

Quote "God gave us the right to self defense and survival not the government so that puts the onus on We the People to protect our civil rights and the way I understand the situation is the elected Government officials take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America." End Quote

Yes my friend, I agree that God gave us the right to self defense etc.: However, had we been born into any other system of government that very basic right would have been deemed by the "STATE" as a "PRIVILEGE". What I meant by our Founding Fathers "giving" us the right was to acknowlegde that they understood that it was a GOD GIVEN RIGHT. It was so important to them that they included specific wording in our very Constitution to ensure that no further generations would be denied this right. It is our duty to uphold this wish of our founders by ensuring that all future generations will be allowed to exercise this very basic right.

PEOPLE....... PLEASE VOTE!!!! KEEP OUR RIGHTS INTACT!!!!
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:25   #10
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TIM Good thread. But you will not make may friends in this world telling the truth.
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Old 05-24-2007, 00:29   #11
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Warn a guy before you post verbatim that Leftard propaganda. Some of us need to find something to vomit into....



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Old 05-28-2007, 19:01   #12
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Get on it guys!!!

Are there no other members of this board that have anything to post here?

Anyway, there is one thing that everyone on this board CAN DO!!!! That is..............EDUCATE, EDUCATE EDUCATE!!!!!!!! everyone you come in contact with as to why the Second Ammendment is not about hunting, target shooting, or any other recreational use of firearms. The common layman needs to know what our founders had in mind when they wrote this Ammendment!!!! Maybe then they would vote to protect our rights and not act like sheeple!!!!!

Our Founding Fathers WANTED us to own Assault Rifles!!!!!
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Old 05-29-2007, 00:53   #13
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Don't forget....

"It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles A. Beard, 1874-1948



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Old 05-29-2007, 13:06   #14
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Public education needs to be changed as well. You wouldn't believe all the bs they were feeding us(and most took the teachers words as truth). I recall a class where I and another student had to debate the second amendment, I was for it, and got a C, the other student was against it and got an A, later that year in the same class our teacher made us watch Bowling For Columbine. I hated that class. I guess to get ahead in school all you have to do is tell the teacher what they want to hear.
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Old 05-29-2007, 13:57   #15
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Originally Posted by craig View Post
I guess to get ahead in school all you have to do is tell the teacher what they want to hear.
Bingo! Give that kid a cigar! That is the single most important truth you can learn in the current educational system, and you will be better in general for knowing it.



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Old 05-29-2007, 18:35   #16
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Originally Posted by craig View Post
Public education needs to be changed as well. You wouldn't believe all the bs they were feeding us(and most took the teachers words as truth). I recall a class where I and another student had to debate the second amendment, I was for it, and got a C, the other student was against it and got an A, later that year in the same class our teacher made us watch Bowling For Columbine. I hated that class. I guess to get ahead in school all you have to do is tell the teacher what they want to hear.

I, for one, am glad to see that there are still some young people out there who are aware of what is going on around them instead of blindly following the pack.

Craig, please don't stop by telling the fellows here about what you have witnessed in the classroom. I chalenge you to educate all those you interact with as to why we have the Second Ammendment in the first place. Your friends and family need to be educated as to the truth. The more poeple who understand, the better our chances of getting the right people elected to change the path of this country!!!!!
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Old 06-01-2007, 13:37   #17
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Since I graduated high school a couple years ago I don't meet any new people that often, and my friends and family get tired of me talking about liberals wanting to take assault rifles. Then some of some of my liberal friends say something like "What do you need an AK-47 for? What are you going to do, hunt with it?" And I say something like "No I'm probably not going to hunt with it, even though I have a five round magazine for it." Then I explain to them that the Second Amendment is not about hunting, that its about protecting ourselves not only from individuals that would do us harm, but governments as well, our own government. Then they look at me like I'm crazy for even suggesting the overthrow of the govt. and they change the subject.
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Old 06-01-2007, 13:52   #18
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I find I get fewer odd looks if I put it this way: The Second Amendment is there so that We The People never have to rely on Government's Good Graces for our freedom, then I point out how few governments in this world have never turned on their own.

As for the clown who proved your point, you missed a great chance to put your finger to his nose and say, accusingly, "See? You'd like to see them all taken away, wouldn't you?", as well as the usual it isn't about hunting statement.



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Old 06-01-2007, 17:33   #19
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Originally Posted by craig View Post
Since I graduated high school a couple years ago I don't meet any new people that often, and my friends and family get tired of me talking about liberals wanting to take assault rifles. Then some of some of my liberal friends say something like "What do you need an AK-47 for? What are you going to do, hunt with it?" And I say something like "No I'm probably not going to hunt with it, even though I have a five round magazine for it." Then I explain to them that the Second Amendment is not about hunting, that its about protecting ourselves not only from individuals that would do us harm, but governments as well, our own government. Then they look at me like I'm crazy for even suggesting the overthrow of the govt. and they change the subject.
Craig, you are obviously a very intelligent young man. You are to be commendad for your foresight. Whenever these types of "friends" look at you like you're crazy, just remind them that the people who wrote the Constitution and its Ammendments had just won a hard fought freedom from a tyrantical, oppressive government. They wrote this document to ensure that future generations of Americans would be free from ever falling prey to the same type of oppression. They wanted to make sure the citiznry was well armed so that the Government would be afraid to overstep its boundaries; lest the citiznry be moved to take up arms to prevent such actions.
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Old 06-13-2007, 18:06   #20
 
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It's funny, when I tell my friends that, they act as though such measures are not necessary in today's world, especially in western society.
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Old 06-14-2007, 00:34   #21
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A little fantasy never hurt...

Oh no, it could never happen now...I keep wondering to myself if the quickest way past all this gun control mess is to let them have exactly what they want. Anyone with any sense will have their stuff stashed somewhere safe, the rest will be the next crop of victims.

Events will rapidly deteriorate into increasing crime of all sorts with the leaders being home invasions and armed robberies. All the previous naysayers will suddenly see the light as everything we and the gun lobby have been saying for years comes to pass. The Brady Bunch will sputter something about it not being their fault gun control failed, and something paranoid about NRA hiring thugs to boost crime and make the BB look bad.

The public at large, having been figuratively slapped in the face and given a rude reality check, will show their typical fickleness and turn on the gun banners by joining those making a run on gun dealers, and will become incensed at having to wait to purchase a firearm, the NICS having been swamped worse than the biggest denial-of-service plot ever to hit the Internet.

Membership in gun organizations from NRA to GOA, local shooting associations, ranges, and related organizations will break new records. The Brady Bunch's budget will collapse except for checks from diehards like George Soros. Phones will go unanswered and a couple will ring disconnected after failing to pay their phone bills.

A second ammunition shortage develops as ammo makers struggle to keep up with the demands of millions of new shooters needing practice ammo.

Local Law Enforcement will go on the news pleading with the public for order, and to stop not only detaining bad guys for the police, due to there being no more jail space to hold them in, but also to please stop shooting them if possible, as emergency rooms report huge delays in treating the wounded.

The backlash by criminals predicted by the anti-gunners when law abiding citizens defend themselves with deadly force fails not only to develop, but after the first few days of media coverage reported crime drops by 90% as the perps prefer to sit tight instead of being shot and bleeding to death waiting to be treated at public expense at the jammed ERs.

In most urban areas the streets are quiet after dark for the first time in over 30 years. Gradually the public realizes it is actually safe to hang around at the park for more than a few minutes. Strangers on jogging trails smile knowingly at each other as they pass, noting the pistol-size fanny pack on the other jogger's waist. Being polite, instead of ignoring everyone, makes a comeback.

Incidents of road rage involving firearms fail to increase above the "rare" category. Motorists once again stop to assist someone at the side of the road with their hood raised. This and suddenly having so many strangers with something in common causes a new boom in CB radio usage. Cellphone sales level off for the first time.

Longtime politicians with any connection to gun control in the past almost universally fail to get re-elected. The two major parties both become more moderate and return to their older platforms, resembling how they were in the first half of the 20th century. Libertarians make major inroads in elective office, in some states reaching 20% of elected office holders.

The Mets win the Series again, and Tom Cruise finally figures out Scientology is a huge scam.



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Old 06-14-2007, 20:21   #22
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The Brady Bunch

Originally Posted by markw76 View Post
Oh no, it could never happen now...I keep wondering to myself if the quickest way past all this gun control mess is to let them have exactly what they want. Anyone with any sense will have their stuff stashed somewhere safe, the rest will be the next crop of victims.

Events will rapidly deteriorate into increasing crime of all sorts with the leaders being home invasions and armed robberies. All the previous naysayers will suddenly see the light as everything we and the gun lobby have been saying for years comes to pass. The Brady Bunch will sputter something about it not being their fault gun control failed, and something paranoid about NRA hiring thugs to boost crime and make the BB look bad.

The public at large, having been figuratively slapped in the face and given a rude reality check, will show their typical fickleness and turn on the gun banners by joining those making a run on gun dealers, and will become incensed at having to wait to purchase a firearm, the NICS having been swamped worse than the biggest denial-of-service plot ever to hit the Internet.

Membership in gun organizations from NRA to GOA, local shooting associations, ranges, and related organizations will break new records. The Brady Bunch's budget will collapse except for checks from diehards like George Soros. Phones will go unanswered and a couple will ring disconnected after failing to pay their phone bills.

A second ammunition shortage develops as ammo makers struggle to keep up with the demands of millions of new shooters needing practice ammo.

Local Law Enforcement will go on the news pleading with the public for order, and to stop not only detaining bad guys for the police, due to there being no more jail space to hold them in, but also to please stop shooting them if possible, as emergency rooms report huge delays in treating the wounded.

The backlash by criminals predicted by the anti-gunners when law abiding citizens defend themselves with deadly force fails not only to develop, but after the first few days of media coverage reported crime drops by 90% as the perps prefer to sit tight instead of being shot and bleeding to death waiting to be treated at public expense at the jammed ERs.

In most urban areas the streets are quiet after dark for the first time in over 30 years. Gradually the public realizes it is actually safe to hang around at the park for more than a few minutes. Strangers on jogging trails smile knowingly at each other as they pass, noting the pistol-size fanny pack on the other jogger's waist. Being polite, instead of ignoring everyone, makes a comeback.

Incidents of road rage involving firearms fail to increase above the "rare" category. Motorists once again stop to assist someone at the side of the road with their hood raised. This and suddenly having so many strangers with something in common causes a new boom in CB radio usage. Cellphone sales level off for the first time.

Longtime politicians with any connection to gun control in the past almost universally fail to get re-elected. The two major parties both become more moderate and return to their older platforms, resembling how they were in the first half of the 20th century. Libertarians make major inroads in elective office, in some states reaching 20% of elected office holders.

The Mets win the Series again, and Tom Cruise finally figures out Scientology is a huge scam.
Markw76,
Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Are you Ready for the worst?
Diamond-backs rule.

Mike
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Old 06-14-2007, 21:32   #23
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  • Food
  • Water
  • Secured fuel in cans with spouts
  • Generator
  • Rifle for each family member
  • Pistol for those who want one (usually only me)
  • Ammunition for above
  • Plywood and blackout curtains for the house
  • 2-way FM radios on ham freqs, wind-up lights and broadcast radio
Both vehicles are 4WD with maps to BOL in case we get split up.
Other preparations I won't go into.



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Old 07-04-2007, 12:36   #24
 
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i agree with you guys on this. its a sad state of affairs when the teachers of this country doesn't even teach the REASON why the 2nd amendment was added in the first place. Its sickening to me as i watch our freedoms and liberties slowly being taken away, all in the name of safety. No country will ever be truly safe or agree on everything, it is the nature of civilization. But as one of our great founding fathers once said, “I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.” Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787

And while I don’t agree with either party (right or left) completely i do agree that the right to bear arms is an absolute necessity to keep the government in check.

remember it is in the governments best interest to strip you of your rights, and ability to defend yourself, and this government is no different, whether there is a republican in office or a democrat.

Ultimately what needs to be done is for people to put aside their obsession with right and left and focus on strengthening this country as a people. Republicans or democrats, they cannot do that themselves. All this does is polarize and divide our county and as they always say, the best way to control an people is to divide and Conquer.
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Old 10-02-2007, 20:20   #25
 
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It is absolutly true that teachers do not understand or teach the true meaning of the second amendment. I am a senior and have taken Government and 2 college history classes and all of the teachers seem to believe that the gun should only be used for hunting. Meanwhile they complain how terrible President Bush is and his suppossed "dictatorship". What would they do with a real dictatorship? They would have to fight them all off by slapping them with their tea cups. I wish more kids my age would understand how prepared we must be.
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