HereĚs why itĚs a good thing the US military is getting rid of the M14 - Page 2 - Shooting Sports Forum


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Old 11-19-2016, 16:41   #26
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I almost forgot, of course you can carry more bullets. The round is for varmints, so ya gotta shoot the BGs more times!
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:13   #27
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I was one of the very last units to go through USMC boot camp with the M14 including rifle range. We did get to fire 16's on that night fire thing when they allowed visitors and you got to fire tracer rounds. As I was getting out Oct 10, 1973, the new MCRD units were coming in with M16's. I shot 248 out of 250 expert with an off the rack 14 (an H & R). When I went to my unit A battery 1/10 2nd Mar Div, we had M16's. They were POS.

I must admit they made a great hose, but reaching out and touching someone, accurately, not happening. I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with my 16. I didn't miss with the 14. That is exactly why they ended up bringing them back in the early 2000's as the limitations of the original AR design and 5.56 became apparent. One thing that bugs me is that all the 16's were full auto back in my day. You might be able to carry more rounds for the same weight (prime reason for approving them), but I know most would go through that in a flash spraying and praying. I believe that was why the Marines went to the three round burst version (A2?). One tends to aim more with a 14 and hit what they aim at.

I must admit, that the M4 in urban warfare appears to be the best use of the AR platform in 5.56. Few targets more than 25 yards away and short easy to maneuver in tight places. I note the Marines are probing getting rid of theirs with that new M27 platform. I don't think they have ever loved the AR platform in 5.56 but may have found a core improvement still with the same manual of arms. They are being careful with how they approach it, but you can see that they would like it for all Marines. I think they want it as their primary assault rifle. And it will reach out and touch someone much more effectively is my understanding. Wikipedia has a bit under combat reviews on it. For a failed weapon though the M14 is still around addressing the shortcomings of the AR/5.56 platform that have been there since the beginning. It was a flawed platform (retrofitting the "forward assist assembly" from the gitgo and that "alteration" was nothing more than fixing a fatal flaw of the original design. As you can tell, I do not own any black guns unless you consider my mini 14 one. "Old School"
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:21   #28
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RedFour, first of all, welcome to the forum from Central Virginia!

Your comments are prescient! Both the M-16 and M14 formats have their appropriate role. Urban combat favors the M-16; something a bit further is more appropriate for the M-14, or at least a firearm chambered for the .308.

I learned in JROTC shooting on the M1 Garand and the M14 - both wonderful weapons, and far preferred over the M-16. But there is something valid about how many rounds you can carry and the anticipated target. It is, unfortunately, a logistics thing.
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Old 03-16-2017, 13:24   #29
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Originally Posted by hks95134 View Post
You do not need a 30-06 cartridge to kill a man.

The 308 is plenty from 750 yards.

And 750 yards is plenty of distance.
Don't need a 12.7x99mm either. But it works, and works very well. Follow up shots generally not needed. And 7.62 nato and m2ball are balistically interchangeable.
Life begins at triple-0. If I'm in a shooting fight, I want to be as far as reasonably possible away. Say, at least 1400 meters. Combat has nothing to do with sporting. Besides, it's fun to watch the reaction when someone's squadmate or terrorist brother gets turned into jello pudding, and they have no clue where the shot came from.
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Old 03-16-2017, 13:36   #30
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Loved the .50 cal spotter round from a 106mm RR. Best sniper rifle, ever.
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Old 03-16-2017, 17:17   #31
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Yup!

Originally Posted by Lurp2 View Post
Don't care what the article says I always liked the M 14, and as in the article the men who carried one in Iraq an Afghanistan liked them too.
Better rifles will always come along but the M 14 has its place and in this "spray and pray"
combat world the guy with the M14 stands tall.
I was a Squad Designated Marksman with the M14EBR. For us it was for over watch with a good Leupold scope and a lethal round.

20 rounds downrange at distance with lethality, fast. I'm pretty sure that's how it was explained to me without using a bunch of cuss words. This is only my second post on this forum. But, yeah. The M14 stands tall.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:14   #32
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Redfour, I also shot expert with the M-14 but with the M-16 in 1969 I also shot expert with it and had an even higher score. The targets only went to 400 meters instead of 600 so that helped but most were very accurate then. I do not know what happened with you and your rifle. Maybe you got worn out guns as some others did and reported issues. My AR's all shoot under 2.0 MOA. and some under 1.5 MOA or better.
But I realize not everyone gets that level of accuracy for several reasons.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:09   #33
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While my son was in Afghanistan, two on patrol had AR10's. Not sure the exact make/model. Marines.

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Old 03-20-2017, 11:43   #34
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Originally Posted by RJF View Post
Loved the .50 cal spotter round from a 106mm RR. Best sniper rifle, ever.
The 105(106) RR used to break firing pins alot, though. When they worked, they were awesome.
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Old 03-20-2017, 14:19   #35
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2, was in 2/1 Inf (9th ID, Ft Lewis) in the mid '70s when they took away our 106s and replaced them with TOWs. We were very unhappy. Held onto our 90mm RRs until I left in '79 (still had to receive the DRAGON in '78). Loved our '90s, particularly the beehive round (good for clearing fields of fire).

Was the BMO for the Bn for a while. Don't recall firing pin problems, but do recall 4.2" sight problems, and their non-availability...A lifetime ago.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:37   #36
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It sounds like the M14EBR-RI will continue serving in Afghanistan for a few additional years.

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Old 03-28-2018, 18:30   #37
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In Afghanistan my platoon, a regular infantry platoon with the 101st ABN had one M14 EBR per squad. After over a dozen failures of my M4 in just one afternoon including a bolt over ride I carried a M14 until the end of the tour. I hated that stupid stock but loved the rifle. The issue people are having is an obvious one. If you are using linked ammo you took off your M240B belts since loose ammo is impossible to find in your AO of course it isn't "match grade". Anybody who thinks it should be is in denial.

With that dumb stock there is no bedding to mess up. It just bolts together. I found it interesting though that the "operator level" maintenance clearly stated that you are NOT to remove the upper handguard.

A basic combat load, 210 rounds, is not much heavier than the 5.56 and when you know for sure that your rifle will shoot 100% of the time that means something. When we were able to "aquire" match 7.62x51 ammo it was like a gift from the heavens and the M14's were the best firearms out there. We carried close to double the basic load and I can tell you I was happy to do it.

YMMV but whoever wrote that trash has obviously never actually used a M14 in combat. Just saying...
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Old 06-02-2018, 19:57   #38
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Voyager:
Since you have experience with the m-14 I've got a question. I recently purchased a Springfield M1A and I've had problems inserting and ejecting magazines. The rifle came with 1 factory mag and I've purchased several others. The mags are difficult to insert and have to be pulled out after releasing them? I've done modifications to get them to function as I think they should. Did the standard M14 drop the mags when the release is pressed? I expected the mags to work like they do on the mini 14. They're easy to insert and latch and drop out when the release is depressed.
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Old 06-02-2018, 20:14   #39
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right much a dead thread you might PM him for response or leave visitor message on his profile.

welcome to the forum.
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Old 06-04-2018, 19:06   #40
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Originally Posted by ssiron View Post
I've got a question. I recently purchased a Springfield M1A and I've had problems inserting and ejecting magazines.....The mags are difficult to insert and have to be pulled out after releasing them? I've done modifications to get them to function as I think they should. Did the standard M14 drop the mags when the release is pressed? I expected the mags to work like they do on the mini 14. They're easy to insert and latch and drop out when the release is depressed.
Thanks
Frank
Frank

M14 and M1A magazine insert and remove technique are in a class by themselves.

Magazine insert requires the magazine top be tilted slightly to the rear, inserted into the mag well, then pulling the bottom of the mag to the rear until it latches into place.

Mag removal by grasping the mag box, press and hold the mag latch forward with the thumb, then push the bottom of the mag forward until it unlatches.

Basically think of the top, forward corner of the mag as a pivot point. Nothing happens unless you are using that pivot point and moving the base of the mag thru an arc.

M14 mags will not lock in when inserted straight up.

They will not fall free when the mag release is pressed.

Do not modify the magazines.

Do not grease anything other than what the manual tells you to.

It will get a little easier as the as the sharp edges and Parkerizing wear down.

In National Match Course competition you have 60 seconds to fire 10 rounds rapid fire from the sitting position - this starting from standing with a required magazine change. Two rounds in the 1st mag and eight in the 2nd.

With practice it can be done quickly and efficiently.
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Old 06-06-2018, 14:56   #41
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Question Too Late

Thanks for that information. So the military used them with the magazine difficult to insert and unhandy to eject. They probably only used the larger capacity magazines. Unfortunately I've already modified my 5 rd, 10 rd mags and some slight mods on the 20's. As they are the 5 rds are really not very usual, They have to be pushed out thru an open bolt condition. The 10's were usable not user friendly. The 20's were usable due to the extra length. Some of the suggestions were to use the 20 rd magazines, not anything smaller.
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Old 06-19-2018, 13:06   #42
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You learn to use a firearm so that you can perform the loading, charging, aiming, firing, and reloading in your sleep no matter what it's designed to. That's what they teach you in the service and it works. I went through Basic Training with the M14 and have a M1A and the mags are a snap to insert and remove. In fact, I much prefer them to the straight insert method used in the Mattel plastic fantastic M16 / M4 / AR15's straight in approach.

When I was training 'cruits' in 1970, about 1/2 of them would insert a mag like we taught them into their M16s, tap it lightly instead of firmly as instructed, and when they'd shoulder their weapons the mag would fall out.

NMC_EXP's insertion and removal description is overly complicated to make it sound harder than it is,

The mags are designed not be inserted straight up. They are also designed to not free fall when released. There are reasons that they were designed that way. Just because you don't understand them doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Inserting the mag is simple when you understand the action and the reason for it; that being the weight of the loaded mag is about 1.5lbs and relying on just the mag release to hold the weight is a recipe for failures as the weapons are used. That's why it was designed to engage at the front of the mag, swing rearward and lock into place on the rear tab of the mag. Once you understand what to do, doing it is simple.

Conversely, removing the mag with one hand is simple. Just grab the mag at the top using the side of your thumb to press the mag release forward then rotate the mag forward and down to remove it letting your thumb slide off the mag release. It couldn't be simpler and no, it's not like an AR so get over it. (You don't put it into 'D' on a 5 speed manual transmission either.)

The M14/M1A's mag was designed to be retained, not discarded like the M16's originally were (but when fielded it was decided not to make them disposable) so they expected you to keep it. Modifying the mag to insert it straight into the magwell in makes them unreliable and will lead to failures.

As to M14's accuracy, they were designed to be 'combat accurate', not bullseye shooters. Like the M1 Garands, they could be accurized but are not as accurate a platform as a target AR can be made to be. However, the M21 Sniper Weapon System with target ammo is a very accurate, sub MOA shooter, and it's just a semi auto, target version of the M14 much like a precision AR-15 is just a semi auto target version of the M16.

If you can't shoot a well set up M1A accurately with decent ammo it's not the rifle's fault, it's the shooter's. I'm 70 years old and I can. Why can't you?
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Old 06-21-2018, 19:18   #43
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Originally Posted by Redfour5 View Post
I was one of the very last units to go through USMC boot camp with the M14 including rifle range. We did get to fire 16's on that night fire thing when they allowed visitors and you got to fire tracer rounds. As I was getting out Oct 10, 1973, the new MCRD units were coming in with M16's. I shot 248 out of 250 expert with an off the rack 14 (an H & R). When I went to my unit A battery 1/10 2nd Mar Div, we had M16's. They were POS.

I must admit they made a great hose, but reaching out and touching someone, accurately, not happening. I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with my 16. I didn't miss with the 14. That is exactly why they ended up bringing them back in the early 2000's as the limitations of the original AR design and 5.56 became apparent. One thing that bugs me is that all the 16's were full auto back in my day. You might be able to carry more rounds for the same weight (prime reason for approving them), but I know most would go through that in a flash spraying and praying. I believe that was why the Marines went to the three round burst version (A2?). One tends to aim more with a 14 and hit what they aim at.

I must admit, that the M4 in urban warfare appears to be the best use of the AR platform in 5.56. Few targets more than 25 yards away and short easy to maneuver in tight places. I note the Marines are probing getting rid of theirs with that new M27 platform. I don't think they have ever loved the AR platform in 5.56 but may have found a core improvement still with the same manual of arms. They are being careful with how they approach it, but you can see that they would like it for all Marines. I think they want it as their primary assault rifle. And it will reach out and touch someone much more effectively is my understanding. Wikipedia has a bit under combat reviews on it. For a failed weapon though the M14 is still around addressing the shortcomings of the AR/5.56 platform that have been there since the beginning. It was a flawed platform (retrofitting the "forward assist assembly" from the gitgo and that "alteration" was nothing more than fixing a fatal flaw of the original design. As you can tell, I do not own any black guns unless you consider my mini 14 one. "Old School"
I didn't serve I signed up with the Marines but Henry Kissinger came on television and announced and end to the draft, two weeks before I turned 18 I received a letter from the Marines cancelling my induction but I was free to come down and sign up, I was number 86 in Colorado Springs. I serve now still at age 63 as a volunteer FF/EMT to pay back my not having served. My son joined the Marines and what Pride I felt at his graduation I cannot put into words. We went to MCRD for the weekend and we signed up for everything including dinner with the DI's your son had. We were the only ones in my sons platoon who were at the dinner so we ate and laughed with the DI's for a couple hours but they had a secret they didn't reveal, the graduating class was coming after dinner so they took us outside. You could hear some guys signing the Marine corps hymn and they were getting closer and louder. Here they came in formation and formed up behind their guidons on the grass in front of the restaurant. It was a very emotional experience for me and the pride for the CORP. was banging through my veins. During the rest of the weekend he gave me his book from sight in week with his targets and at 6oo meters he had nearly a perfect score. He did shoot expert on his qualifications but he still can't outshoot the old man, it's a psychological barrier LOL. The 7.62 is ideal for the open country, for the jungles of Vietnam, unless you had the advantage of night and a starlite scope inside a perimeter, I would have preferred an M16 or an M3 grease gun. Carlos used a bolt 30-06 but he was an exceptional hunter and in a specific role. But the article is crap, unless they have a magic new cartridge out there or a faser from Star Trek.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:03   #44
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Originally Posted by chill1955 View Post
The 7.62 is ideal for the open country, for the jungles of Vietnam, unless you had the advantage of night and a starlite scope inside a perimeter, I would have preferred an M16 or an M3 grease gun.
While they were OK, I much preferred my 90mm 'shotgun'; my tank firing canister rds. Inside a few hundred yards, the 'target' just disappeared.
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:27   #45
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Fire, spray, pray, repeat as required. Disappearing isn't so bad but what happens next may surprise some. Sounds like a serious load of buck shot son. Duck Dynasty episode?
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:07   #46
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The M-14 rifle was the best rifle that the Army EVER had in its armory system. Every soldier who ever used one loved theirs because it was just about perfect in how it worked and how effective the cartridge was too. I used one in Basic Training and I liked mine.

Later on, in Viet Nam, I was issued a XM-21 sniper rifle which was an accurized M-14 that I grew to love. While all the other boys had their full auto fire M-16s, I had my semi-auto sniper rifle that could drop a doped up enemy soldier with one shot all the way out to 900 meters with a well placed hit. If my sniper rifle had been a girl I would have married it and brought it back home with me.

The Army went from the almost perfect rifle to the most controversial piece of garbage that they could muster and present to the troops almost overnight. The M-14 series of rifles had better punch, longer range and better accuracy than any other rifle ever produced in its class of medium caliber rifles. It could out distance the AK-47 rifles by almost 3 lengths of the AK's abilities in those days and its bullet could zip through a lot of trees and debris that would stop or deflect almost all .223/5.56 ammo.

To be realistic, our military forces should never have gone with any kind of a bullet with a weight under 100 grains at all. Gradually we have been slowly moving back in the direction of the old M-14 rifles and their heavier size rounds in 7.62 NATO. Our military has learned its lesson about "small bullets moving fast being as good as larger bullets." It's just not true because small bullets react differently than larger, heavier bullets react.

Both sets of bullets have their uses and have military functions to them. Our combat infantrymen actually need a heavier bullet, especially for closer combat purposes and urban area fighting. We can use the smaller faster bullets for use in squad automatic fire weapons like machineguns and perimeter defense mini-guns. The problem was that we failed to understand this concept until recently like we should have.

Would I bring back the old M-14? No, its time and technology has long ago been passed up. It was a great thing in its day but now we have better options. I would push for the 6.5 Grendel to become the new infantryman's bullet and the 6.5 Creedmoor bullet to be the new designated marksman round using a M-21 rifle format. I would also push for the development of a 6.5 caliber pistol too. The 6.5 pistol caliber round could be used in submachineguns and a new semi-automatic pistol that we could design. That way our military could use one type of bullet, the 6.5, for all of its major weapon systems and never have to worry about all sorts of different calibers and millimeters again.
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Old 04-02-2020, 15:29   #47
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it's never going to happen. The 223 serves well enough, because the rifle just doesn't garner enough of battlefield casualties to be meaningful. A slight improvement in its ballistics means nothing, cause the guys shoot thousands of rds for every hit that they get. If they'd just switch the issue ammo to the 77 gr bthp ammo, they'd have plenty of stopping power. Since some of our troops DO use such ammo, there's obviously no reason. other than cost to not have everyone using it. That cost is a lot less than changing rifles and calibers. So you're never going to see the 6.5 as an issue weapon/caliber.
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Old 04-02-2020, 18:14   #48
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Originally Posted by toyhw View Post
it's never going to happen. The 223 serves well enough, because the rifle just doesn't garner enough of battlefield casualties to be meaningful. A slight improvement in its ballistics means nothing, cause the guys shoot thousands of rds for every hit that they get. If they'd just switch the issue ammo to the 77 gr bthp ammo, they'd have plenty of stopping power. Since some of our troops DO use such ammo, there's obviously no reason. other than cost to not have everyone using it. That cost is a lot less than changing rifles and calibers. So you're never going to see the 6.5 as an issue weapon/caliber.

The U.S. Army is changing the M24 chambering to 6.5 creedmor, and will prob be changing the SR-25/M110 soon.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say the rifle doesn't garner enough of battlefield casualties to be meaningful.
As far as switching ammo types, obozo the chimp and the rest of the "green" crowd took away lead-cored ammo for the most part, as it's ecologically unsound. Whatever that means.
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Old 04-02-2020, 19:48   #49
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I dont believe that most of our ammo is not still lead core. When lots of it is still radioactive. The rifle accounts for less than 10% of battlefield casultities. That's been the case since WW2, at the very least. Accidents, friendly-fire, disease cause more casualties.
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:42   #50
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Gotta admit, in my battalion, rifle fire accounted for about 80% of enemy KIA and WIA.
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