[ULVER]

I know that Mil-Spec FMJ ammo like M193 will fragment, giving us the famous wound profile. However, I've heard that Wolf .223 has a thicker jacket than Mil-Spec/Nato, and does not act as such.

1/Would the Wolf HOLLOW-point 55gr. make a big difference?

AND MORE SO... Does Generic American FMJ such as Win/white box, UMC, and Fed/Eagle properly fragment similar to M193???

Imput....welcomed...

 

[jp58c]

Far as I know there is no "fragmenting"
Belive the wound channel you're referring to is caused by the
yaw/pitch of the bullet and the bouncing off bones which inturn frag.Check out the book called Wound Ballistics,or pretty close title,by Marshall Evans.Usally the only rnds I know of fraging are
h.p. type with the cuts in them to facilitate the opening and tearing of the wound channel.

Hope it helps there's an ever ongoing debate about all this
especially with serious hunters.

:usa:

:rapid: :2guns: :ar15:


THIS WE DEFEND

 

[Geno]

The more fragmentation you have the less penetration you get. I have some magazine articles where .223 fmj would not even penetrate auto window glass!

 

[cajungeo]

right on Geno. Anything I shoot at I want penetration AND expansion. If I want real fragments I use my mossberg 500 12 gauge. Now if I'm shooting prarie dogs I want my bullet to expand, and the dog to fragment. Ballistic tips or hollow points expand very readly not much fragment.

 

[ULVER]

AH...Guys... I don't think you're following me. Likely because you are thinking in hunting terms, and I'm talking police ballistics.

FYI-The mil-spec M193 55gr. 5.56 (.223) FMJ, is designed and will---violently fragment on two-legged critters. Wounds that actually outclass what most soft or hollow-points deliver. I was simply curious if the generic FMJ will do the same. The answer after my research is...not really. In that case, I'll stick with TAP ammo, or some of the other ballistic tips. True mil-spec FMJ in 5.56 is very wicked!

 

[Reflex]

The debate goes on in military circles, also. You have one side (R&D and your average gun magazine) claiming that the (M855 and M193) rounds consistently fragment, and the other (usually the infantryman/ officer using the rifle) claiming the opposite. Personally, I side with the user on this issue. The perfect guy to answer this quandary would be Z-man.. hope he sounds off.

 

[jackrabbit]

I don't know much about military ammo, but Full Metal Jackets framenting??? That is the idea of full metal jackets--they don't fragment. It was always my understanding that the government uses fmj's to comply with decisions from the Genevoa convention saying framenting bullets on humans are inhumane. To answer your question, generic or name brand fms's like Hornady do not appear fragment in game animals, telephone books, or dirt. I've been wrong before, but I can't visualize how a fmj would fragment. As far as I know the military ones are solid lead, with full copper jacket. Even with a thin jacket, this does not leave many opportunities for expansion or fragmentation. Just my humble thoughts.

 

[Kalifornia Citizen]

From my experience, hollowpoints are predictable in their expansion. Though I haven't hunted with Wolf .223 in my rifle so I can't say how well they perform on game.

I don't take Wolf on hunting trips. Wolf has not been very accurate in my mini-14. At 100 yds, my groups are about 8 inches. That's enough to miss just about anything and it doesn't matter how controlled the expansion is.

Some others have posted that Wolf projectiles are magnetic. My .223 hollowpoints are not. However, my Sellier and Bellot FMJ-M193/No 2903 are magnetic. Does anyone know if Sellier and Bellot fragments?

What does the M193 mean?

Sorry, more questions than answers.

KC

 

[davey]

US military designation for 5.56mm ammunition:

"Cartridge, 5.56-mm, Ball, M193. The M193 cartridge is a center-fire cartridge with a 55-grain, gilding-metal, jacketed, lead alloy core bullet. The primer and case are waterproof The M193 round is the standard cartridge for field use with the M16A1 rifle and has no identifying marks (see 1, Figure 2-17). This cartridge has a projectile weight of 55 grains and is 1.9 cm long, with a solid lead core."

source: http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll...fm/23-9/ch2.htm

As for fragmentation:

"Czech-made Sellier & Bellot (S&B headstamp) ammo uses bullets with thicker jackets made of mild steel which have been copper-plated. From the outside, they appear just like M193 bullets, but due to the jacket material and construction, they do not fragment."

source: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/#m855legal

 

[voruzon]

jackrabbit: I don't know much about military ammo, but Full Metal Jackets framenting???

Military ammo in question - low-caliber high-velocity projectiles - has thin, weak jacket further weakened by cannelure. It certainly fragments but not in a way you imagine.

...I can't visualize how a fmj would fragment

Glad to help you here.

The bullet's geometry and weight make it unstable compared to the bigger bullets because the centre of pressure is in front of the centre of gravity. The bullet is stabilised in the air due to the spin imparted by rifling. Once it enters more dense material, the spin is not sufficient to stabilise it and the bullet yaws and tumbles rather than move point-first. In fact it will end up moving tail-first if it dies not break! If the speed is sufficient, the strain on bullet moving sidewise makes it break appart at cannelure. The resulting two pieces (that usially move in different directions) are in effect 'hollow-points" and they in turn exapand and fragment into smaller pieces as they tumble firther. You get a neat short wound channel doubling in size (where bullet tumbles), splitting in two channels and further becoming a mess of shredded tissue.

If the bullet is too strong or velocity is not sufficient, the bullet will tumble and increase a would chanel considerably, if not as much as in fragmentation case.

It was always my understanding that the government uses fmj's to comply with decisions from the Genevoa convention saying framenting bullets on humans are inhumane.

The Geneva Convention apparently did not outlaw the effect it tried to avoid - just the designs based on current knowlege that produced that effect. That is a prime example of micromanagement combined with shortsidedness and incompetence - as further development allowed NATO to come up with a weapon that followed the Geneva Convention to the letter while violating its intent.
It is obvious that a fragmanted bullet is much more difficult to treat than an expanded bullet - because of shredded tissue, lodged frangments and massive internal bleeding from many points. And it gives an advantage to the NATO countries compared to the 3rd world and other armies beause those would much more likely to be armed with older conventional weapons - with 7.62 bullets that will not fragment due to insufficient speed but cannot be made fragmentable/expandable by design according to the Convention.

ULVER: Wolf .223 has a thicker jacket than Mil-Spec/Nato
...and I'm talking police ballistics.

Russian ammo is usually made from mild steel, not copper. It may be stronger but not necessarily due to thickness.

Anyway, why do you worry about Wolf FMJ ammo's frangibility? It's cheap and workable though lower quality and of questionable durability. You can practice with it regardless of it's physical properties as long as it shoots straight.

If you are stockpiling for the SHTF scenario or load a magazine for police patrol, you would be making a potentially huge mistake trying to save a nickel per round by carrying potentially crappy ammo instead of the good one - regardless if it's FMJ or special tip.
If one is in combat, he will not ever have a chance to shoot so much ammo as for the cost to become bigger issue than quality - especially if he is neglecting quality.

To answer the original question - regular FMJ 5.56 will usially fragment as long as the velocity is above ~2700 fps. Pretty sure at 100 yards with Mini. Further than that depends on the barrel length, weapon, gas port tuning, etc.

---------------------------------
Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet.
---------------------------------

Voruzon.

 

[Greg1911]

I don't think you are listening to the guys question so I will try to help.

when I shot M193 ammo into milk cartons with water in them at close range it broke apart in a bunch of little pieces ( I have a few)
then when I shot wolf the bullet seems to Yaw and change shape but not fragment.

not very scientific but just my experience.

 

[voruzon]

Greg1911
I think we listened quite well. My advice was exactly in line with yours - use Wolf for practice and high-quality ammo for combat.

Regarding your test, did you shoot the water-filled carton through the side or lengthwise?

If you shot it through the side and the carton is what, 3 inches deep - and the water is not contained anymore once the packet explodes - even before the bullet travels the whole length, could it be that 2-3 inches is not enough for a bullet to turn sidewise?
Maybe the copper-jacketed bullet fragments even without yawing becasue the jacket is too weak and the energy is too great? While steel-jacketed bulet does not break because after 2 inches it is not even travelling in water anymore? Could it be that surrounding water pressure helps to keep bullet whole if it managed to break surface without desintegrating?

The bullet must have some penetration to be effective. It should travel at least 3-4 inches before desintegrating in order to hit vital organs - otherwise the effect may be closer to a birdshot.

Water and tissue (or ballistic gelatine) have quite different properties. Water is non-compressible. At the same time it does not have any tensile strength. It may be that the force on a bulet is much harder on impact and much lower while submerged in water than in tissue.
So a weak bullet could desintegrate on impact and not get any penetration.

I would suggest filling a carton of milk with a single piece of meat and shooting it lengthwise - about 12 inches with different loads. That would give you damage picture much closer to reality. I will definitely do that once I get my rifle in a few month but maybe anyone could do it sooner?
You can buy large chunks of meat for abut $1/pound. I treat my dog to it sometimes.

Here is the tests I'd like to perform:
1. Shooting 12 inches of meat covered with 3 layers of cloth (old jeans.

2. Same as 1 through two thin layers of steel (car door)

3. Same as 1 through a layer of glass (auto-glass)

4. Same as 1 through 1 inch of wood and 6 inches of air

5. Same as 1 through 3 inches of wood and 6 inches of air

Boy, when I get my rfle and start experimenting, my dog is gong to be very happy!

Voruzon

 

[cajungeo]

Well I hope to be shooting some meat next weekend when I go deer hunting, but it won't be with my mini. It will be with my .308