[djskit]

Took my ranch rifle to Frontsight in Las Vegas Nevada for a 4 day practical rifle class. www.frontsight.com
Shot over 800 rounds of ammo from 7 yards out to 400 yards.
Originally planned to take a more tricked out standard Mini but encountered some problems a few days before (subject of a later posting)
So it was the stainless ranch with a Williams WGRS rear sight and 10 Precision Mag 20 rounders. Used some early 80's Malaysian M193 ammo I picked up many years ago.
At the range, the rifle was doing about 4 inches at 100 yards.

Most guys at these classes are running various ARs and were kind of scoffing at me and my mini. Had to put me on the far right of the shooting line because of the brass.

Had about 10 mis-feeds with the mags - tip of the bullet getting hung up on the feed ramp. Just re-cyclyed the action and I was back up in the fightOnly one time did the bolt not stay open on the empty mag.

Once I put the lock-tite on the Williams sight it worked great.

I missed "Distinguished Graduate" by only 5 points and it was all my fault - not the rifle - it did its job in a spectacular fashion

 

[cajungeo]

It sounds like you had a time djskit. Maby the misfires was the old 80's Malaysian ammo? The tip getting hung up in the mag may be you need to trade out the springs, and followers? Still 10 hangups in 800, not bad.

Something as extensive as that course almost needs a shakedown shoot, before going. I hope you got to pop some of the Loud mouth AR shooters with your brass before they moved ya to the end of the line.

 

[Flak 2]

djskit glad you had a good time with your mini. Could you trace the misfeeds to certain mags? 800rnds. is a fair amount of shooting. I'm sure an AR had a misfeed or two in 800 rnds.

 

[mikr]

Originally posted by Flak 2
I'm sure an AR had a misfeed or two in 800 rnds.

That's what the forward assist is for.......the mini is so far extraordinarily finicky about mags.....not that the AR isn't but decent USGI or Colt mags work flawlessly.....and I can get USGI mags for $10 all day long......

 

[Flak 2]

a forward assist is not a cure all for feed problems. As far as that goes a Mini 14 has a far better forward assist than an AR. That being an op.rod like an M 14. Jamming any round with assist if the bullet is caught on a feed ramp spells trouble. Push that bullet back into that case far enough to compress that powder then chamber it and your asking for trouble.

 

[mikr]

With a tightly crimped M193 or M855 round, if you can shove a bullet down further in its' seat using the forward assist, well, then, there are much bigger problems that exist there, other than just being plain picky or finicky.

 

[voruzon]

Doesn't the cannelure on a 5.56 bullet prevent it from being shoved down the case? Unless you "forward assist" it with a hammer?

Voruzon

 

[djskit]

I had the same type and number of mis-feeds with my M1A and govt mags when I took a similar class about a year ago. So I just think it more has to do with alot of shooting, getting things dirty, etc. My point is that those Precision Mags did about as good as can be expected!
I need to go through tonight and do a cleaning of everything (mags being thrown on the ground for malfunction drills) and I'll see if anything jumps out at me.

If anything will break on your rifle it will happen during this class!
We had one guy with a new Bushmaster AR and he had a heck of a time with jams and malfunctions. That's why you bring a back up!

 

[Bam Bam]

Did you have the instructors say anything about which type rifle they prefer, as far as reliability for these courses they run?
Clint Smith over at Thunder Ranch, does not like Mini's , thinks they are inferior to AR's in reliability. I think his whole team over there agrees on that.
Still, I have heard of other people that have attended these classes say that the Mini's kept going when the AR's had quit.
You might have tweaked the mags lock-up hole by it hitting the ground while inserted in rifle, altho with the 20 round Precision mags I doubt it. Look forward to your exam of mags and rifle to try and figure this out.

 

[djskit]

The AR definitly has an edge with ergonomics and inherent accuracy. Frontsight's motto is "any gun will do - if you will do"
They really mean it, no matter what rifle you bring, they will gladly teach you to shoot it.
As to what they reccomend - their rental gun is the Bushmaster Dissaptor - 16" bbl with a full length handguard.
IMHO the mini is far more reliable than the AR.

 

[Dave3006]

djsk, overall, how many malfunctions did you see with the ARs in class? I have taken several classes and seen ARs choke so bad that they needed tools to take them apart.

Is that loser Piazza still there pretending he is some sort of warrior? That guy screams "wanna be" from a mile a way. He should have kept his day job as a back cracker.

 

[Flak 2]

I've never been sure on wich is more reliable. I guess one would have to beat up on the two rifles in a course similar to the class you've attended in a few differant climates and environments. My AR's feed pretty well with GI 20's. One thing for sure the AR has a little edge in mag changes, sights and accuracy. With good sights like the Williams you've installed and practice at mag changes the Mini would be in the running. Probably the most important thing is the person behind the trigger. I'm glad you used a Mini in the course though.

 

[Dogman1]

Ar-15s are great! They're so great that I sold all but one(a 9mm colt) and turned around & purchased a couple of Mini-14 folders and alot of Mags. The Ar-15 is finicky & a dirty gun. Feed that Ar-15 a steady diet of WOLF, Reloads,and Hot G.I. ball, along with aging surplus...& you know what you got...a Rifle that will not WORK! The mini-14 will eat that diet of ammo, and never even hesitate for seconds let alone ask to be cleaned.I've seen it on the range, on the job , & other places which WILL NOT be mentioned. I love my Mini's & I mean love... AR-15s suck. DOGMAN out!:sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

[Sorry Dogman1, I had to edit out the comments about the other sites. We don't condone site-bashing in this Forum.
- Satan2655]

 

[Flak 2]

Dogman you musta had some pretty sick AR's. I like'em (rifles) all, just some a little better than others. Though I admit as far as magazines go I think AK and H&K magazine designs are far better than others. AR magazines rate real low as far as durability goes.

 

[djskit]

You're entitled to your opinion about Piazza, (and you may be right! ) but his organization is top notch and his insructors are A+. They had me doing things with a mini -14 and iron sights that I could not imagine. (like getting center of mass hit at 200 yards in 5 seconds.)
Yes, when A/R had problems, they were BIG.
One spectacular jam took 2 guys working 20 minutes with all sorts of tools to get that Bushmaster going.

 

[mikr]

djskit- what were some of the most interesting rifles that you saw there? Any AR-10s, FAL's, or anything that you remember that stands out?

 

[Dave3006]

You are right about his instructors. They were top notch when I was there. One guy, Brad Ackerman, was what I would call gifted in his ability to instruct.

Piazza, however, made me want to vomit. He strutted around like he was the baddest dude on the planet. The guy was in definite love with himself. The funny thing is that he has not put his life on the line in a real situation. He is a paper target commando. Hardly a reason for all the arrogance. Paper does not shoot back. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

 

[djskit]

Well there were only 3 of us at the class - 2 AR's and me. This was unusual because there were like 20 guys at the shotgun class and about 75 at the pistol class.
At previous course I hauled my M1A (way too heavy!) Had about 25 guys (and one gal) most with AR's but there were alos an AK 74, mini 30, fnfal and a remington model 600. The instructor had a flat-top AR-10 that I fell in love with, but, boo-hoo, I'm here in Cali.
The guy with the AK had a hard time because the ergonomics of that rifle suck, bolt don't stay open, not very accurate, etc.
Other than that most guys did just fine with whatever they brought.
I was so busy concentrating on what I was doing I didn't pay much attention to any other issues.

 

[Dave3006]

Don't discount the AK because it was not "tactical shooting school friendly". The drills you do in the classes are geared towards making it easy on the teachers. In real life, things will be different. You won't stand up and perform ridiculous tactical reloads. You will reload behind cover and have plenty of time. Cover will be your best friend.

These schools teach good weapons manipulation. If you want something closer to reality, play paintball or do simunitions. Someone actually is trying to kill you back. It is not a perfect representation of reality (nothing is). But, you will see how silly some of the things in the schools they teach is. You NEED an environment where someone is actively resisting your efforts to make them dead.

The shooting schools are about making money. Don't confuse that with reality. The GREATEST favor you could do is to play paintball for one day. You will see how easy it is to get killed and how much you are vulnerable.

 

[Kalifornia Citizen]

djskit,
In your first post, when you said Maylaysian M193, bought several years back, I cringed. I had the exact same problem with Maylaysian M193 with date codes 1980-1981.

It was very consistent - always had feeding problems. After a couple hundred rounds, I tried to figure out why. It was the ammo. It turned out that the brass had a rough finish. The rough finish had just enough friction to cause jams. Not everytime - about every 3 rounds. I tried rubbing an oily rag on the brass and that cleared up the problem.

Later, some posts on perfectunion said I was asking for an exploding rifle by lubing the bullets, so I quit. I shot the rest without an oil rub even though it jammed like before.

Use that ammo in bolt actions.

KC

:ar15: :ar15: :ar15:

:sniper: