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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is an excellent bit of knowledge and I do have it in my personal notes. 7677 is the nom de plume of an active Federal Officer, renowned trainer, and ICCF Staff Member. He is definitely a man worth listening to, not to mention a heck of a nice guy.

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The Sight Continuum
By 7677

The "Sight Continuum" is merely a guide to which shooting technique you will use in a deadly force situation.

I came up with the sight continuum to explain when to use point shooting and when to use the sights by the urgency of making shot and the distance involved. Other things like movement, and the use of cover are other considerations that play a part in the sight continuum.

The final piece of sight continuum came to me one day while watching simunitions training and I noticed that people A) do as they were trained or B) spray and prey or C) nothing (until to late). Well sometimes people do what they were trained a little to well. No one every told them that they could go from the mind set of I'm going to draw and take a aimed shot to of oh crap I need to make the shot right now. When this happened most shooters didn't use point shooting and make the shot but rushed the draw stroke which usually threw the gun even more off target and then it took them even longer to recover their sight picture and by this time you could play connect the dots on them.

The distance which most handgun fights take place at are within 10 feet and the victim is usually reacting to the attacker which further puts them behind the reactionary curve. The only way I have found to off set the attackers advantage is for the victim to move, draw and fire the second the gun comes on target and continue to zipper up the body until the attacker is down.

The "Sight Continuum" starts with "hip shooting" and continues to the use of sights and this give a person the ability to shoot at any point within their draw stoke one hand or two handed. In combat, I did not have to think about which method I would use as it just came to me.

The body is amazing as if you keep the weapon with the centerline of the body or the nose with the gun in the peripheral vision the mind will determine when to take the shot. All you have to do is focus on the spot you intend to hit. Your subconscious mind will worry about the alignment of the gun and the spot your focusing on. This is especially useful while shooting and moving fast.

When I attempt to move and use aimed shooting, I have found that if I attempt to aim to make the same shot it slows me down as I have to consciously think about the front sight, the target, and when to fire. This is the reason so many schools teach the groucho walk. While I'm in the process of trying to align my front sight on the target, I tend to slow down my movement in order to keep the front sight from bouncing and begin to get tunnel vision on the front sight.

The shooter's focus should be on the target with their surrounding in their peripheral vision not on the front sight. Continual focusing on the front sight while moving leads to tunnel vision. Furthermore, on the squared range, there are usually no obstructions to trip over but in the real world there are many hazards one can find themselves negotiating in the middle of a gunfight.

In point shooting, the index is very important just as it is with sighted shooting. The index gets the gun on target and with point shooting eye/hand coordination places the bullet on the same spot that the eyes are focused on and with sighted shooting the index gets the gun on target and the gun is brought a little further up to the point where the eyes pick up the sights and verify the gun is on target. As the distance increases, the effectiveness of indexing and eye/hand coordination decreases.

From 0 to 3 feet, or at what is commonly referred to as bad breathe distance, a retention techniques needs to be employed. These Techniques rely heavily on body index with very little to no hand/eye coordination.

Indexing will only take you so far and with all point shooting techniques there still needs to be some degree of hand to eye coordination. The further away the target is from the shooter the shooter goes from relying on indexing and more to the ability of putting rounds on the spot where the eyes are focused on. It is similar to throwing a punch but only at an increased distance. Your fist is replaced by bullets. Index alone will get hits on the target out to 10 yards however you want your point of focus and your point aim to be on the same point (hand/eye coordination).

From 0 to 3 yards, most people use techniques similar to Fairbairn's "Half Hip". With the Half Hip position, I use my body's centerline as an index with my gun in my peripheral vision. This technique relies on both body index and hand/eye coordination.

For extreme close quarter gun fights with "half hip" the shooter needs to explode off the line. The draw of the weapon occurs while the support arm forearm is driven into the attacker throat. The shooter dives the attacker back and zippers up the attackers body.

From 5 to 10 yards, I use either in one handed or two-handed point shooting, which will be under the line of sight, I use my nose as the index. The person uses the index to get the gun on target and the eye/hand coordination places the on the spot where the eyes are focused on.

NOTE: The above yard estimates are not absolute and will change do to shooter and/or target movement.

Aimed shooting comes at the end of my sighting continuum. Why because I can start to draw my weapon and anywhere in the steps of my draw I can point shoot off of body index/eye hand coordination or I can continue to bring the weapon up to eye level and make a precision shot. The steps of the draw that I use are the same with point shooting as with sighted shooting. Time (the urgency of making the shot) combined with distance will determine which method I use in the Sight Continuum.

In closing, I'm not exclusively a "Point Shooter" or a "Sighted Shooter" I simply use whatever method will allow me to go home at the end of the night.

 

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when Cirillo or "Grover says most gunfights are within 10 ft, you agree, but when I say it, it CAN'T be true. Shows what idiots you really are.
 

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when Cirillo or "Grover says most gunfights are within 10 ft, you agree, but when I say it, it CAN'T be true. Shows what idiots you really are.
Come to the little hut in the woods and shoot a few targets with me. We will post them so everybody can see your marksmanship. Come on show the Old Grump he don't know what he is doing. When Cirillo says it it's because he has done it not read it in a book or saw it on U-tube.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
when Cirillo or "Grover says most gunfights are within 10 ft, you agree, but when I say it, it CAN'T be true. Shows what idiots you really are.
All I can say is that I never doubted this statistic regardless of who said it...

My point of contention is, at this distance, people insist on trying to go to two-handed sighted fire and then wonder why it didn't work...except on the game-range.
 

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This is a technique we taught at the Marine Corps CQB school as well although they also throw a drop step back into the mix afteryou engage the target with your first couple of rounds. This allows you to have the room to bring your pistol up into the solid two handed stance and use your sights.

Also when utilizing the index position with a semiauto firearm, remember to cant the weapon outboard away from your body to allow the slide to cycle freely and not get bound up in clothing, gear, ect.

One other tip I would add to this is to over correct and bring the muzzle higher up towards the target. Your natural tendency will be to level the muzzle which will have you shooting into the hips of you opponent instead of getting a good COM shot. I have discovered though the teaching of hundreds of students and also through my own personal experience that you will tend to shoot low and left ( for a right handed shooter and the exact opposite for a leftie) if you do not consiously compensate for this.
 

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This is a technique we taught at the Marine Corps CQB school as well although they also throw a drop step back into the mix afteryou engage the target with your first couple of rounds. This allows you to have the room to bring your pistol up into the solid two handed stance and use your sights.

Also when utilizing the index position with a semiauto firearm, remember to cant the weapon outboard away from your body to allow the slide to cycle freely and not get bound up in clothing, gear, ect.

One other tip I would add to this is to over correct and bring the muzzle higher up towards the target. Your natural tendency will be to level the muzzle which will have you shooting into the hips of you opponent instead of getting a good COM shot. I have discovered though the teaching of hundreds of students and also through my own personal experience that you will tend to shoot low and left ( for a right handed shooter and the exact opposite for a leftie) if you do not consiously compensate for this.
Navy here but sounds like we had the same coach. :lol:
 

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There are so many scenarios it is hard to say what exactly you should do. It is dependent on the terrain, cover potential, how many enemy there are, their position and range, range of your own weapons, smoke, grenades, flash bangs, engage or not engage. Whever you do, if you have to think about it you are probably going to be dead.

Don't let yourself get into a position in the first place of being in the open and having enemy preparing to fire on you but it can happen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
That’s why one shouldn’t train for specifics…just generalities…and, realistically, most specifics fall into general categories anyway…

Being caught in the open is what will happen, the enemy isn’t going to engage you on you ground and where it’s to your advantage…

The most important thing is awareness…

…and I guess we’re also moving off topic here a bit, sorry about that.
 

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I"ve used 2 handed sighted fire even closer than 10 ft, and believe me, it CAN be done, a LOT faster the typical cop can point fire and hit, even if both men start with gun in hand. From ccw, I can aim such a shot, both hands, in a hair over a second, on an electronic timer, 1.10 seconds, and the cop will need 2.0 seconds, or he will miss a lot. :) I'd prefer, tho, at 10 ft and less, to fire in .95 second, ccw start, hands at sides, to include the .20 second reaction time to the "beep" of the timer, and just fire a 2 handed, eye level, point shot.
 

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I"ve used 2 handed sighted fire even closer than 10 ft, and believe me, it CAN be done, a LOT faster the typical cop can point fire and hit, even if both men start with gun in hand. From ccw, I can aim such a shot, both hands, in a hair over a second, on an electronic timer, 1.10 seconds, and the cop will need 2.0 seconds, or he will miss a lot. :) I'd prefer, tho, at 10 ft and less, to fire in .95 second, ccw start, hands at sides, to include the .20 second reaction time to the "beep" of the timer, and just fire a 2 handed, eye level, point shot.
you can't do anything old man.

well, maybe you can lick out another prisoner's butthole - heard you were really a top hand at that.

I own you, Convict.
find a hacker to find out who I am yet?
 

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Come to the little hut in the woods and shoot a few targets with me. We will post them so everybody can see your marksmanship. Come on show the Old Grump he don't know what he is doing. When Cirillo says it it's because he has done it not read it in a book or saw it on U-tube.
Careful Grump,
I'd think twice about asking a known prison bitch to hang out in the woods alone... he might try to toss your salad. :rolleyes:
And I'm 99.999% sure you don't swing that way :D

besides - he's nothing but talk, he knows that in real life he can't touch- let alone own a firearm again. he gets caught and He'll go back to the pen on his third strike. so he won't be showing any of us photographic or video proof of his badassedness.
 

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I"ve used 2 handed sighted fire even closer than 10 ft, and believe me, it CAN be done, a LOT faster the typical cop can point fire and hit, even if both men start with gun in hand. From ccw, I can aim such a shot, both hands, in a hair over a second, on an electronic timer, 1.10 seconds, and the cop will need 2.0 seconds, or he will miss a lot. :) I'd prefer, tho, at 10 ft and less, to fire in .95 second, ccw start, hands at sides, to include the .20 second reaction time to the "beep" of the timer, and just fire a 2 handed, eye level, point shot.
Sounds like your skill set will be invaluable if you ever have a deadly encounter.... with an electronic timer ;)
 

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I"ve used 2 handed sighted fire even closer than 10 ft, and believe me, it CAN be done, a LOT faster the typical cop can point fire and hit, even if both men start with gun in hand. From ccw, I can aim such a shot, both hands, in a hair over a second, on an electronic timer, 1.10 seconds, and the cop will need 2.0 seconds, or he will miss a lot. :) I'd prefer, tho, at 10 ft and less, to fire in .95 second, ccw start, hands at sides, to include the .20 second reaction time to the "beep" of the timer, and just fire a 2 handed, eye level, point shot.
If I'm reading this right you are talking about drawing down on a police officer and aiming your weapon at him...
is this what you fantasize about? shooting Policemen?

Capital idea there, Convict.
ye gods you are a card carrying IDIOT.
 

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Careful Grump,
I'd think twice about asking a known prison bitch to hang out in the woods alone... he might try to toss your salad. :rolleyes:
And I'm 99.999% sure you don't swing that way :D

besides - he's nothing but talk, he knows that in real life he can't touch- let alone own a firearm again. he gets caught and He'll go back to the pen on his third strike. so he won't be showing any of us photographic or video proof of his badassedness.
Good targets or bad, I post them to make a point. My prize winning days are way behind me but I try and stay competent and am willing to listen to any expert who can show me a better way. I have had people from Texas, Illinois, California, and Norway take me up on my offer and all had a good time. I provide the coffee, targets and range they shoot with me and everybody learns something. For instance my Norwegian friend went from no handguns to a set of old original black powder guns that dwarf my entire handgun collection. He also learned that Wisconsin in January is a lot colder than where he lives, just north of Oslo. Didn't matter, I had him out there in -28 degrees shooting every handgun I had and he wants to come back but in the summer this time. He loved my 45's and .357's but not so sure about the 41 and 44 magnums. :lol:
 

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I"ve used 2 handed sighted fire even closer than 10 ft, and believe me, it CAN be done, a LOT faster the typical cop can point fire and hit, even if both men start with gun in hand.

From ccw, I can aim such a shot, both hands, in a hair over a second, on an electronic timer, 1.10 seconds, and the cop will need 2.0 seconds, or he will miss a lot. I'd prefer, tho, at 10 ft and less, to fire in .95 second, ccw start, hands at sides, to include the .20 second reaction time to the "beep" of the timer, and just fire a 2 handed, eye level, point shot.
:unsure: Something's wrong, very wrong! Two-handed, sighted, pistol fire at and inside 10 feet? That's 3 yards. Are you kidding me! I've shot IPSC, IDPA, and PPC matches most of my adult life. Jiminy, I don't even consciously aim at this distance - Don't even consciously aim!

My pistol comes out, and away goes the center of the target - It ain't no big deal; AND, I can do this with either single hand! (In fact I feel sorry for anyone who actually needs to deliberately aim his pistol at 3 yards!)

I've been shooting like this all of my long life. What kind of draw times am I talking about? From an uncovered holster: .35 to .45 second in order to place an accurate shot(s); and there's no way I'd waste time by either using two hands, or bringing the pistol up to eye level before firing. (What is this, amateur night?)

On the street I'd be almost as fast, too. Why? Because I'm always (deliberately) open at the front, and unbloused at the waist. Faster, still, I don't carry at 4:00 o'clock. I'd start a draw from 2:00 o'clock off my belt; and I know from (real world) experience that this is faster than most other gunmen can move. You know, the more I think about it, the more I think it's, 'amateur night'. ;)

NOTE: You know what gives this away? The .2 second reaction time! One of the very first lessons I ever learned is NEVER WAIT TO VERIFY THE BEEP! Consequently me, and most other gunmen like me, will draw and shoot at the very first hint of a sound.
 

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sure, if you fire more SLOWLY, or miss a lot. :) or if they let you CHEAT and get your body all "lined up" with the target before the start of the timed event. Sounds to me like you have no ccw competition experience (man vs man, up close). that sort of pressure makes point shooters fall apart, especially in bad light.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
sure, if you fire more SLOWLY, or miss a lot. :) or if they let you CHEAT and get your body all "lined up" with the target before the start of the timed event. Sounds to me like you have no ccw competition experience (man vs man, up close). that sort of pressure makes point shooters fall apart, especially in bad light.
Do you have any idea as to what you're talking about?
 

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well, let's see. I've place in the top 10% of over 150 IPSC pistol matches, ccw'd for 20 years, held attacking men at gun point 4x, had to stop dog attacks several times, would have drawn on several other men if i"d been packing, would have had many other confrontations had I not been 6 ft and 200 lbs of black belt. Ive won several hotly contested leatherslaps, one of them from concealment. How about you?

I know for a FACT, that on 10" disks, at 10 ft, from ccw, if I make you pivot to right and left, both 90 and 180 degrees, that your point shooting won't be faster than my aimed fire (and still hit). Not for an average of 5 tries. What point shooters always do (if they are truly fast and hit) is get their bodies PERFECTLY "aligned" with the target. Well, real life aint like that, so I make them pivot-travese for 4 out of the 5 draws, and guess what? They either slow down or they miss.

I"ve shot a lot with Nat'l Champs at Fast Draw, Bob Arganbright and Ron Bright, of Alton, ILL. How about you?
 
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