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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Minutes of Angle - Important to the Rifleman

My friend and ICCF staff member 2HOW spotted this excellent tutorial on understanding and using minutes of angle in sight adjustments. It is explained for the telescopic sight; nonetheless, it is the same method for iron sights graduated in minutes of angle as well. This man does a superb job taking the confusion out of MOA and impact on target calculations, something anyone wishing to be a true Rifleman needs to know.

Understanding Minute of Angle (MOA) - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast

Understanding Minute of Angle (MOA) - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube

Here's a few points, explained in the video, that I want to emphasize for your sake.

The (minimum) level of accuracy for anyone, wishing to be a Rifleman, is 4 MOA. That is a 4-inch group at 100 yards and at 500 yards, this equates to a 20-inch group.

Please remember that 1 MOA = 1-inch per 100 yards (approximately).

Example: 4-inches (1-MOA at 100-yards) X 500-yards = 20-inches

Thank you to the National Sport Shooting Federation NSSF - National Shooting Sports Foundation for producing that and many other excellent video tutorials.
 

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sorry, but men aint 20" wide. If they are sideways, and a skinny 3rd worlder, the kill zone is 8" wide. Now, I agree that 4 MOA will suffice, but it's cause there's almost no non-accidental hitting done at more than 200 yds, in combat, regardless of how accurate your rifle is, because men MOVE, use cover, darkness, etc, when they know that hostilities are the order of the day, and nobody reliably hits such marks at longer ranges. Not with iron sights, ball ammo, no ear protection. Not, anyway, while being shot at. Our troops fire 50,000 rds per hit, and hit 4 for every one that dies. Sheesh.
 

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LOL another fabulous post WHOA! I guess the Marine Corps rifle qual goes out to 500m on a 19.5" target for no reason and Marines NEVER qualify because of these amazing distances.
Also as a counterpoint to your post, Google the battle of Belleau Wood in WWI and see that Marines were making kills in excess of 700m WITH IRON SIGHTS using venerable old Springfield 03's all the way back in the early 1900's . Google the name Devildog and see how we earned it.

Also you statistics are sadly skewed as to the number of rounds fired and they are also over simplistic. You seem to not understand what suppressive fire from a machine gun is and seem to not understand that even if you are correct in your stats (which I know from very personal experience over 4 tours in the sand box that you are not) that many of these rounds fired are to stop vehicles, to suppress while riflemen maneuver to kill. SAM-K (Suppress, Assess, Move- Kill) I know from personal experience that it took me three rounds from an M16A4to score my first E-KIA (while receiving rounds)and all hit and another situation where it took one 12 round burst from a M240B to stop a car, kill the driver and wound the passenger at a distance measured at 250m (how did we measure this distance you ask? simple The car crossed the kill line already lazed and preestablished for the post I was on).
You obviously are not very familiar with combat and from reading your various post I have come to the conclusion that you are quite possibly the epitome of the term "mall ninja".
 

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With all due respect I don't understand what any of this has to do with learning/knowing MOA and how to use them???
Not a thing, it was good basic information all serious riflemen need to understand. The noise maker does not understand any of this so he denigrates it without a clue in his head. Another good post would be one on battlefield zero and why it was chosen for each particular gun.

The problem lies in your title using pistol instead of rifle. Not many handgun shooters will ever worry about MOA at 500 yards. Especially when the standard for youngsters today is an 8" plate at 9' or less. If you wanted this to be about pistols you should have kept the examples scaled down to normal pistol ranges of 50 yards and less.

The noise maker will disagree with that too but that is not relevant.
 

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they do it so that they can KID themselves about being "effective" at 500 meters, that's all. the reality of combat is that over 90% of the non accidental hits occur at 100m or less, and that most hits ARE just random accidents, and most men CAN'T deliberately kill another man, especially at ranges where they can see that man's face. The less that man looks like him, (ie, Asian) the easier it is to do, and we are probably letting this aspect of our humanity be trained out of our kids, with these gory video games. Read MEN AGAINST FIRE, by Slam Marshall, and ON KILLING, by David Grossman.
 

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they do it so that they can KID themselves about being "effective" at 500 meters, that's all. the reality of combat is that over 90% of the non accidental hits occur at 100m or less, and that most hits ARE just random accidents, and most men CAN'T deliberately kill another man, especially at ranges where they can see that man's face. The less that man looks like him, (ie, Asian) the easier it is to do, and we are probably letting this aspect of our humanity be trained out of our kids, with these gory video games. Read MEN AGAINST FIRE, by Slam Marshall, and ON KILLING, by David Grossman.
I guess thats why there was an investigation over in the sand box because so many of the enemy were getting popped in the melon. Some were saying that they were being executed but it was proved that all those head shot were because that was all that was showing from behind cover and our troops are good marksmen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
whoa,

I not going to bother arguing with you as it would obviously do no good nonetheless, I should point out that using SLA "Slam" Marshall as a reference isn't a good idea. The man's a proven fraud...look it up. As far as Grossman is concerned, some of his facts have proven to be opinions and some of his opinions have proven to be questionable. He is better than Slam but he's more of a philosopher than a scientist.
 

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Kilo,
You are correct and I apolagize for your thread derailment. I got heated when I read Whoa's nonsense. I appreciate you starting this thread and posting the info that I'm sure many people do not know!
 

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Thread title is "The maxims of pistol shooting" and subject is MOA out to 500 yards ?

Elmer Keith and Henry Bowman are the only two I've ever heard of who could hit anything at that range with a handgun.

He was incredibly skilled with handguns. He shot at a rifle-wounded deer and hit it several times at a range of 600-yards using his 6½ inch S&W Model 29.[2]
And one of 'em is fictious.
 

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Thread title is "The maxims of pistol shooting" and subject is MOA out to 500 yards ?

Elmer Keith and Henry Bowman are the only two I've ever heard of who could hit anything at that range with a handgun.

And one of 'em is fictious.
I registered just to reply to this. I quite often chalenge myself to long shots with a ppistol when the oportunity presnts itself. i can hit a parking cone 100 yards uphill all day long, took me one shot to get the elevation right. That was the second time out with my glock 21. Rescently I was at a local spot and a there was a guy there seting up trgets on this hillside the locals use as a backstop. he had a 5 galon propane tank at 300 yards and a scubqa tank at 450 yards. I was able to walk in on them both and then hit them consistently. That was a month ago. I was back at the same spot this alst Saturday.The propane tank at 300 was gone but the scuba tank was still ant the 450 perch. I was able to hit that tank first shot and nailed it 7 of 10.

If you shoot enough and are familiar with the gun you are using, you can be very accuarate at pretty good ranges. It does require good eyesight, steady hands and a descent understanding of all the factors coming into play. I put the front sight at the bottom of the target so i can see it and drop the rear sight for elevation adjustments. Once you do it a few times you can make a reaasonalble guestimation at other targets and ranges. It aint hard.

Now I expect to get flamed opn this next one and have all kinds of BS flags thrown at me. But my 8 year old daufghter was able to achive almost as much from a short barrel 22lr pistol. She has yet to actualy hit the target but was able to walk it in real close and kcik up dirt all around that scuba tank at 450 yards on both occasions. But we live in the desert. Aint no trees aroudnd here and you can generaly see in all directions for miles so we have lots of oportunites to play with those longer range shots.

~Mike
 

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I haven't commented on anything here for a while so I felt compelled to add my .02 to this discussion.

The MOA part is good ,but lets face it guys, it is a pretty simple concept. It's moa = 1" at 100 yards. 2" at 200 and so on. It's Minute of "Angle." 1 MOA is one 60th of a degree,,, Not Inches per 100 yards.

Next:

A 4MOA gun can still hit a target 4" wide at 500yards. it just can't do it every time. The more accurate the gun is ,the more times you will hit the target in any given shot string.

As far as killing people is concerned, And I am speaking with no practical experience whatsoever. However I do fully understand the concept and could apply what I know in a nanosecond.

It's all about your mindset!

The "Art of War" states that if you put your men in harms way,,, they will fight. I know this to be true from my own experience.

Once again, It is all about your mindset. IE; what motivates you. Being put into a deadly situation will motivate most people into their survival mode. Everyone has the will to survive to some extent or another. Obviously some are better at it than others are.

It is one thing to fight for a cause. It is quite another to fight for your life. The latter obviously should motivate you to a greater degree.

The modifying factor is Fear.

Danger can be real, however Fear is an emotion and it can be controlled. This is a major part of mindset. Repeated exposure to danger can and will lessen the effects of fear, and this is what "Battle Hardening is all about.

If you control your fear, you allow yourself to think. Your greatest weapon is your mind. Being able to use your mind effectively in battle is how you prevail. This is what "Battle Hardening" does for you. Being exposed to battle conditions and living thru the experience makes it easier for you control your fear which allows you to survive the next battle.

Being able to run your gun in a situation which is pure chaos requires the use of your mind to execute properly. I can contain muscle memory as well but in the end you have to think about what is wrong with the gun and fix it. These are the tools you are given to fight the battle. The part about killing people with those tools, is part of your mindset.

Every individual is capable, under the right circumstances, of killing another person. It is part of our basic programing, or you can call it your "Survival Instinct., "Will to Live," whatever.

How you accomplish that task is all about training. You gotta learn how to do it. Part of that training has got to be establishing a Combat Mindset. That mindset is what triggers action, it is what defines where the line in the sand is, or where you will kill.

This all must be established well before it is needed, because when it is needed you probably won't have time to wrestle with your emotions or think things thru. You will simply have time to react.

All of the thinking part had to have been done along time ago.

At that point the adversary can only be a target that you must hit, your life will depend on it. Humanity is not part of the picture, only survival is of consequence.

They say after the first one, it gets easier. I have not experienced the first one yet and hope I don't. but if my line is crossed I WILL ACT!

Because with me, if this line is crossed,

All bets are off and survival is my only concern.

My .02 on that subject!

As far as Elmer Keith is concerned I doubt everything he said was the absolute truth, however I also would bet he could back up pretty much everything he said with action in the real world.

I tend to allow a little more latitude to them that knows.

Randy
 
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Great reply!

I haven't commented on anything here for a while so I felt compelled to add my .02 to this discussion.

The MOA part is good ,but lets face it guys, it is a pretty simple concept. It's moa = 1" at 100 yards. 2" at 200 and so on. It's Minute of "Angle." 1 MOA is one 60th of a degree,,, Not Inches per 100 yards.

Next:

A 4MOA gun can still hit a target 4" wide at 500yards. it just can't do it every time. The more accurate the gun is ,the more times you will hit the target in any given shot string.

As far as killing people is concerned, And I am speaking with no practical experience whatsoever. However I do fully understand the concept and could apply what I know in a nanosecond.

It's all about your mindset!

The "Art of War" states that if you put your men in harms way,,, they will fight. I know this to be true from my own experience.

Once again, It is all about your mindset. IE; what motivates you. Being put into a deadly situation will motivate most people into their survival mode. Everyone has the will to survive to some extent or another. Obviously some are better at it than others are.

It is one thing to fight for a cause. It is quite another to fight for your life. The latter obviously should motivate you to a greater degree.

The modifying factor is Fear.

Danger can be real, however Fear is an emotion and it can be controlled. This is a major part of mindset. Repeated exposure to danger can and will lessen the effects of fear, and this is what "Battle Hardening is all about.

If you control your fear, you allow yourself to think. Your greatest weapon is your mind. Being able to use your mind effectively in battle is how you prevail. This is what "Battle Hardening" does for you. Being exposed to battle conditions and living thru the experience makes it easier for you control your fear which allows you to survive the next battle.

Being able to run your gun in a situation which is pure chaos requires the use of your mind to execute properly. I can contain muscle memory as well but in the end you have to think about what is wrong with the gun and fix it. These are the tools you are given to fight the battle. The part about killing people with those tools, is part of your mindset.

Every individual is capable, under the right circumstances, of killing another person. It is part of our basic programing, or you can call it your "Survival Instinct., "Will to Live," whatever.

How you accomplish that task is all about training. You gotta learn how to do it. Part of that training has got to be establishing a Combat Mindset. That mindset is what triggers action, it is what defines where the line in the sand is, or where you will kill.

This all must be established well before it is needed, because when it is needed you probably won't have time to wrestle with your emotions or think things thru. You will simply have time to react.

All of the thinking part had to have been done along time ago.

At that point the adversary can only be a target that you must hit, your life will depend on it. Humanity is not part of the picture, only survival is of consequence.

They say after the first one, it gets easier. I have not experienced the first one yet and hope I don't. but if my line is crossed I WILL ACT!

Because with me, if this line is crossed,

All bets are off and survival is my only concern.

My .02 on that subject!

As far as Elmer Keith is concerned I doubt everything he said was the absolute truth, however I also would bet he could back up pretty much everything he said with action in the real world.

I tend to allow a little more latitude to them that knows.

Randy
I LOVE this post! +1000 likes!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
The MOA part is good ,but lets face it guys, it is a pretty simple concept. It's moa = 1" at 100 yards. 2" at 200 and so on. It's Minute of "Angle." 1 MOA is one 60th of a degree,,, Not Inches per 100 yards.
You ever try and explain/teach MOA and sight adjustment to a bunch of shooters?

As far as "It's Minute of "Angle." 1 MOA is one 60th of a degree,,, Not Inches per 100 yards." is concerned, you are correct and it's also meaningless to the shooter.

We adjust our sights to move the point of impact based upon inches left, right, up, and down. The sights are calibrated in minutes of angle i.e. one click = 1/4 or 1/2 MOA. So what does 1/60 of a degree mean to the shooter when they need to move the impact point 3-inches left and 1.5-inches down? Nothing. All they need to know is how many clicks to put on the sight, they can care less what an MOA actually is, just tell them the clicks.

OK, simple as it gets is 1 MOA = 1-inch at 100 yards. 1/4-inch clicks means 4 clicks to move 1-inch at 100-yards. Therefore, 12 clicks left and 6 clicks down is the sight adjustment.
 

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Handgun accuracy is based on the theory of 1" spread per each 10 yds at a POI of 25 yds. So an acceptable group at 25 yds. is 2 1/2 inches. If this is projected to 50 yds you are over 6" of spread. That is why standards for hunting with an open sighted pistol Ctg. should be limited to 50 yds. {This does not apply to the SBR or rifle rounds in Handguns}.
The short bearing surface on handgun rounds will allow the bullet to destabilize early in flight and lose it's terminal velocity.
 

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Handgun accuracy is based on the theory of 1" spread per each 10 yds at a POI of 25 yds. So an acceptable group at 25 yds. is 2 1/2 inches. If this is projected to 50 yds you are over 6"of spread. .......
Not 5"?

[(2 1/2 + 2 1/2) (1.047) = 5.235"]

This information might be useful to me; so I'd really like to know where it comes from?

Thanks!
 
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