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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Few thoughts came to my mind while participating in the "Recommended scopes for Mini-14" and other threads that I thought are worth discussing in a separate one.

It specifically concerns people without prior combat or military experience or training who plan to use Mini-14 - or AR, for that matter - as a paramilitary weapon in SHTF, also known as EOTWAWKI scenario - some/complete breakdown in civil order with army and law enforcement unable to protect the citizens with possible armed bands of predators prowling around.

I have serious problem when I see such people's messages - discussing what kind of bells and whistles they intend to install on the rifle based on their hunting experience, target practice, variously acquired misaprehensions of combat, movies, etc. I wish to share some ideas which I hope nobody ever needs in practice that may prevent bad things happening.

Shooting people, specifically people who can and will shoot back rather than avoid confrontation, even more specifically shooting such people in a situation not of your own choosing - requires very different considerations regarding the whole process. A sniper or a deer-hunter (shooting dangerous game at close range is different) can take his time aiming. A man in combat has many things to occupy his mind on which his life depends. One cannot afford to lock one's attention on one target, let alone the aiming process. You have to see what his buddies are up to, memorize where they hid, imagine where they could crawl and pop up while out of sight, layout of the terrain, notice what your buddies are doing and communicating, plan what to do next, etc.
It's like driving a car against the traffic. If you have to think about driving, you are done.

Most of the time such confrontation would be at relatively close ranges - otherwise you would probably be able to avoid it.

The way I see it, having a streamlined, unencumbered rifle that can be brought to bear quickly is essential. Iron sights are perfectly fine at the distances involved. Bullet drop is immaterial or can be compensated slightly by shifting the point of aim. Having clear field of view and situation awareness is very important. Weapon should be serviceable after you roll with it, fall on it, drop it, bounce it or drag it. I would strongly advise against optics, especially one obscuring the iron sights.

The weapon must be reasonably accurized to about 2" groups at 100 yards with no outflyers - as much as the light barrel allows - and feed is reliable, everything else depends on the shooter. Which is essential. And which requires a lot of work on user's part and not the one we all like - tinkering with mechanical stuff.
One should be able to hit a target without shouldering a weapon at the range below 100 yards. One should be able to shoulder a weapon in a fraction of a second with sights already perfectly aligned without concious though involved. Both are possible. Both require quite a lot of regular practice to achieve.

I have very good experiece with a blow pipe and throwing stones as a teenager and shooting cases of stolen ammo with my AK-74 during military service to dispell the guard duty boredom and finally shooting a longbow. Also shooting the tank weapons - one does not shoulder them but the principle is the same. Each took a lot of practice but eventually there was no concious process of aiming - where there even was anything to aim with. Just think it hit, and down it goes...

I'd suggest two things to train for. First - shouldering a weapon so the sights are already aligned.
Aim the the rifle, hold still and memorize the body position, how it feels. Then bring the weapon up very slowly, trying to have sights aligned by the moment the rifle is shouldered.
Once it seems to work, try closing your eye when the rifle is 3/4 way up and opening it once the rifle is in place - hopefully getting the sight picture you expect. Do it once in a while - to avoid developing a habit of closing the eye.
Do it a lot of times, faster as it gets better and the process of aiming will become quick and automatic.
I think the best time to do so is the time wasted while watching TV.
There are drawbacks to using TV picture itself as a target and there are some creative uses how it could help with some aspects of tactical training, but I do not want to spend time on it now.

Second - learning to aim without shouldering a rifle. A cheap lazer sight or even a laser pointer temporarily attached to the barrel and aligned with the bore can be used to swing a rifle, press a button and check where it's pointed. One should be able to aim the rifle by feel from any position and in any direction.
Once you can do that, shoot at the range. Due to recoil, etc. the impact may be away from the point of aim, but once you achieve consistency, it's remedied by shifting the imaginary point of aim. Same for the bullet drop. The laser helps you get a feel where the barrel is pointed. The rest should be as natural as throwing a stone.

I am not sure how practicing with different weapons affects the results. A person with talent and a lot of practice can certainly become natural with any rifle - like people who can throw any kind of a knife. I'd start with one and one only.

Anyone else cares to comment, add, refer to good resources on the subject - web, books, magazines? Not the Special Forces practices, not the sniper lore - stuff a regular self-trained guy could use.

Voruzon
 
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I follow almost all the same tactics in paintball, although obviously not under life threatening conditions. Paintball guns rarely have sights, so by practice you just "know" your gun and know where to put the barrel to hit any location and at any distance. You must be able to bring the gun to shooting position fast, or you're out.

The minute you put your focus on only one person ( we call it tunnel vision), you get bunkered or flanked by one of the opponent's teammates. I always got to keep a tally of player's positions in my head, and I always look around like a bird to keep track of any position changes.

I love paintball and have played both recreationally and in tournaments. Although I play it for fun, it has a lot of redeeming qualities for real life confrontation. Hopefully I never have to test it, because there isn't a "round 2" in real life.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I live in Brooklyn. I visit Windham area sometimes, so once I have my rifle(s) I will take them with me and would look for places to shoot there.


I was planning to take paintball seriously as a hobby just because it seems a good training for real-life situations besides practicing instinctive shooting on realistic targets. I do not really know where to start, so I am gathering resources/advice.

Are there any paintball guns that do not require a cartrige but can be pumped to create pressure?


P.S. When I look at my post now, the title seems pretty weird. Somehow putting those words in one sentence leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I will try to come up with a better thread names in the future...

Voruzon.
 

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Hi Voruzon,

I have to agree about the title, it's a little threatening, but the subject matter isn't. There is nothing wrong with preparing yourself in a defensive manner. You never know......

As far as paintball guns are concerned, there are really 3 classes:

pump (like a shotgun)
semi
full-auto

All of them use an air system of some sort. I use a 4500 psi compressed air tank attached to my gun. Some people use CO2 because of cost, but it's a dirtier gas that can easily flash to a liquid. The liquid can freeze or damage a gun.

Also, many people run the air tank on their back with a hose attached to the gun. This will lighten up the gun, but inhibit movement a bit.

As far as BB-gun pump style marker goes, I don't think they exist. Most paintball guns run at between 400-850 psi and shoot a .68 caliber paintball at 290+ fps. You would have to pump the gun for 5 minutes to produce that kind of force :)

Hope this helps :)

BTW, an excellent resource to get you going is http://www.warpig.com
IT basically has info on almost every aspect of the game and the equipment.
 

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I hear ya on the title thing man....especially since most of the undereducated part of this liberal nation eqivicates the .223 with "shooting people" thanks to those two idiots in DC. But hey, my name is special poop - how bad do you think that looks to me now heheheh? I can relate.

All in all - a rant yes, but you gave me some great ideas (being a non-mil type) to help improve my shooting and that's what this whole exchange is all about. thanks bro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
bubba052698: I have to agree about the title, it's a little threatening...

Right. The intent of the post was to convey how dangerous engaging people in combat was to the shooter, rather than the intended targets.

Voruzon.
 

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My experience with paintball is that it is in no way realistic.
Unless you have some friends with the same attitude that you have, to "keep it real" , things will just turn into a massive paintparty with people spraying and praying. I have tried paintball several times, bought a marker that I now intend to sell.
Airsoft seems to be more realistic and fun.
/D
 

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Hi Diligentia,

I think it really depends on where you play. If you go to the larger rec fields, it turns into "how fast can you shoot and how much paint can you throw".

My friend owns a paintball field with a variety of different separate fields. Game size is between 10-30 players. I prefer this method of play much more and I think it has a lot more "realism" to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
:)
It sounds pretty realistic to me - at least for situations where poorly trained but inspired (or despaired) sides engage in combat, except for dying part of course.
How often do we hear about policemen discharging dozens of rounds in a matter of seconds and hitting each other? Guerilla fighters in various countries? Those people do not spend much time on target range, let alone tactical simulation range - and it shows.

If one decides to play realistically and set a survival as the ultimate goal, one can still gain some valuable practice for some situations regardless of other people's style.

True, the abcense of the "fear of death" apparently makes combatants behave unrealistically - like charge head-on and shoot at you, quite successfully, without being encumbered by considerations of their own safety.
Guess what - that kind of stuff really happens in real life. And it certainly requires a very different tactics on your part. When you are faced with a religious fanatic or a man all whipped up in rage or a man high on drugs or alcohol - or a combination of the above, you are in trouble. You can certainly kill such a man or a few. But they will also be likely to hit you before they even feel their wounds.

So the tactic good against such an attack is pretty much the same as the one good against a charging paitball player - a well placed shot to the head.

Of course to simulate other situations, like facing a trained enemies - where you are likely to get shot before you even realise you are in combat - you do need a bunch of friends who take that stuff seriously.

What's airsoft? I saw realistically-looking pellet guns marketed as "Airsoft" but I never knew it was used in games.
Please tell us some more. I know nothing at all about it.

V.
 

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Airsoft is like paintball but the guns are replicas of real guns and fire 6mm plastic bullets.
check out www.redwolfairsoft.com, a Hong Kong retailer with some sales in California I think.
Replicas are usually electric for assaultweaponreplicas or gas powered handgun replicas called Gas Blowback. The replicas has an extremely "real" feeling to them and the Gas Blowback guns has a moving slide as you fire them.
Many of these players has it all, swat uniform, camouflage, combat gear u name it.
It started in Hong Kong and Japan I think, where most civilian use of guns are prohibited. I guess this is as close they can get to the real thing.
/D, sweden
 

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Voruzon, we think alike.

My mini-14 isn't accurate enough for hunting but it's plenty accurate for self-defense. No optics when it's loaded and sitting in the closet.

I've had enough experience in relatively close range shooting through pro-tourney paintball and now airsoft. Yes, airsoft is more realistic; you can't charge around since the guns are more accurate and shoot full-auto.

The tendancy in airsoft, like firearms, is to add as many lasers, reddots, sure-fires, etc. till you run out of real estate. I call it 'pimping'. No offense to those that choose to do this, but I do just fine point shooting. From 10 to 35 yards, which is the most common engagement distance, there is very little time to react to a fast moving threat.

I throw the gun up, shoot, and if I miss I manuver aggressively or defensively (ie: run like hell) depending on the situation. Sighting down a rifle when I do this is very natural for me and CAN translate well to my mini-14. It's all practice as you say.

You have to be very familiar with your gun. Airsoft guns may be realistic but they don't have recoil, muzzle blast, or flying casings to deal with. This can only be dealt with through practice.

Finally, paintball and airsoft are sports, they only simulate shootouts to a limited extent. The real thing would be much more violent, scary, and permanent.
 

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In the mid sixties the Grunts at Camp Pendleton ran us thru a "Reaction" range. We walked down the firing line & when a target popped up from varieing distances we'd engage it. We were told no to use the sights on our M-14's but to sight down the barrel. It was surprising how accurate we could be at close range high speed engagements. We were run thru this course in both daylight & at dusk & fired both semiauto & in bursts. Another thing, anyone who tells you the M-14 isn't controlable in full auto is full of it. It would be interesting to run thru this course with the Mini. It's small size should make for fast reaction times.

Good shooting
Bushwack
 

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Sights on battle rifles are a big plus.Ask anyone who has fried a M-4 with the SOPMOD kit.Hitting 300 meter targets is easy.Choosing the correct scope is the key.Some are for hunting and others are for quick sighting on a man size target.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Diligentia: It started in Hong Kong and Japan I think, where most civilian use of guns are prohibited. I guess this is as close they can get to the real thing.

Oh, I see... The Airsoft is not as popular in USA because americans can play this kind of games with real guns, right? :D:D:D

Anyway, how accurate is airsoft, compared to the paintball?
What's the reasonable shooting range, also compared to the paintball?
How are the hits registered?
The URL does not seem to work now.

All the references to airsoft I see so far mention indoor urban SWAT-type play. Some urban-fighting practice is certainly great. How about outdoor?

bushwack: Another thing, anyone who tells you the M-14 isn't controlable in full auto is full of it.

Were you shoulderieng the weapon or holding it as a hose, with two hands, body/elbow? What's your weight?
Personally, I had a tough time controlling the climb of a shouldered AK-47 at full auto. Even when shooting prone, I had to lay on the butstock and press the magazine firmly into the ground. 7.62x39 is not considered a heavy-recoilng round. Of course I am not that heavy to start with.

For effective use of auto-fire, one needs a lot of practice and it is very expensive. Not that we have a choice anyway with the laws such as they are.

V.
 

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I have never played airsoft myself but I have friends who do. Perhaps someone else has more info than me about airsoft.

It should be:

www.redwolfairsoft.com

As far as accuracy goes Im not an expert, but I think with the right stuff, upgrades(springs, motor, barrel) and so on, you can hit a soda can at 15-20 yards repetedly.
Outdoor play is problalby more common than indoor I guess.
The airsoft blowback handguns can shoot through a regular paper target such as the IPSC Classic at fairly close range so you usually want some layers of clothes I think. It will shoot through a soda can aswell. The players I have seen usually only where goggles but at close range a bullet kan do some damage to teeth and a pretty face so a face mask or mouth piece is recommended.
Since I live in Sweden I send you some urls for Swedish airsoft:
http://www.airsoft.nu/media/pictures.php
Click on the different dates and alot of pictures will pop up.
Looks fun right? :)
/D, Sweden
 

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I didn't want to hijack your post with too much airsoft stuff but since you asked here is one of the best places for airsoft info:

http://www.airsoftplayers.com

Maximum effective range is about 50 yards for a man sized target. The guns shoot relatively flat out to about 40 yards because they have hop-up (puts a backspin on the pellet). In SoCal our upgraded guns average 400 fps. P-ball guns have more range at 300 fps because P-balls weigh more.

Hits are on the honor system. Generally not a problem because airsoft tends to be a more mature group and has ex-paintballers that were sick of the P-ball attitudes. Also tends to be more tactical since most of us use frs radios to communicate. Some of us also use smoke bombs, NVG's, etc.

The guns are identical in size and almost the weight of the real thing. They are almost exact copies down to the welds. This means we never wave them around in public.

If you do play airsoft it's absolutely necessary to use P-ball rated goggles. Facemasks are an option but recommended.
 

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voruzon---Back then I weighed about 170# and I couldn't believe my Uncle Sam was actually paying me to shoot weapons all day long. We shoot everything from the shoulder except for the M-60 when it was mounted on a tripod & they just showed us that so we'd be familiar with it. No our Marine instructors would've buried a boot in us if they caught us firing from the hip "John Wayne" style. I found it harder to shoot both the M-14 & M-60 from the prone position than any other position in full auto. I've used the AK-47 in full auto too & found it harder to control than the M-14 even though it recoils less. I never had much to do with the M-16 other than when I was tossed one & told to shoot a 55 gallon drum about 50 yards away. I'm much more impressed with todays M-16 than I was with the origanal model.

Good shooting
Bushwack
 
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