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I was reading the latest issue of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement.I came across an article on the performance of the .223 in Afghanistan.To make a long story short it said that usually the Enemy would have to be hit several times before going down.The Military also reported the wounds to be similar to that of the .22 Magnum.Now Ive killed alot of varmits with a .22 Mag and a .223 and the .223 is devastating compared to the .22 Mag.But according to the US Military its not??
 

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Dont the military use FMJ ammo? If so this could explain having to hit them several times and not doing a lot of damage. With that small of bullet just passing straight through wouldnt look like much more than a 22 for damage. I could be wrong, I havent shot much FMJ ammo.
 

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more then likely they were/are using AP ammo, i've yet to see an iraqi wearing a bullet proof vest, wich the m-88 was made for.

my$.02
 

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I just happen to be out at the range on Tues of this week and was shooting with a friend that just got back from there. He works behnd the fench. And we talked about just this thing. I asked the same question. And the things you guys wrote has some to do with it. But the real problem is with the shorten bbl M-4's a lot of the high speed low drag guys like to carry. Some are as short as 14in. The vol. of the SS-109 round is slowing down to the point that it will not frag. or tumble when it hits flesh. The round only bunches a little holes. He said out past 150 yrds the round does little to slow a guy down. He said the guys that are carrying the longer M-16's are having little problems. And you know how it goes, you never hear about the good things, only the bad. So there you have it from a guy that's been there, shot that.
 

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.223 which is 5.56 NATO does not fragment below ~2500 feet per second.
Even from a 20-inch barreled M16 that makes the range about 200 yards. Below that the wound is devastating. Above that it's just a tiny hole.

V.
 

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Try Nosler's little missles. 60gr partition. They work wonders! In a 223 they expand reliably and consistently. Use them, I think you'll like them!
 

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heres my 2 cents. i have never carried a .223 in wartime, but i have shot varmints with the .223 FMJ. just the other day a feral tom cat was hanging around my pasture and harrassing my barn cats and i let him have one broadside from my mini-14 at 60 yards, (55gr FMJ) the big tom was shot through both shoulders, where the bullet came out on the opposite side it took his complete front leg and shoulder with it. he dropped like a dirty shirt. i have taken deer with my .223 and handloaded soft point 55 grain bullets too, not my first choice for deer, but i have done it. i think it is a wicked round, i wonder about the stories some of the GI's are telling, i wonder if they are getting good hits on these indviduals who can take 4 or 5 rounds and keep going. any dog or coyote i have ever seen shot with the .223 has been messed up and put down hard.
 

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Mill-spec FMJ .223 round turns sidewise and fragments after penetrating 3-4 inches into the tissue if the velocity is sufficient.
Wounds on small animals may not be characteristic of those on men.

V.
 

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A month or so ago Shotgun News had a very good article on the 223,5.45X39 Russian round. I think it was the rounds used in Afganistan. Seems the Russians came upwith different bullets "rounds"for the type of war they are fighting personnel without flack vest"body amour" and those with.The US NATO SS109 62 grain load was made for going thru some body armour then start tumbling. Older 55 grain load tumbuled without near as much penatration. Most hunters know, you need to have the right bullet design, weight for the type of game you are going after. Same with human beings and tactics?? Sorry for my poor spelling as always. Aldo
 

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The M4 with the 14.5 inch barrel is a CQB weapon.With the SOPMOD kit it is easy to make hits at 300 meters, but the terminal ballistics is questionable. The Shotgun News article showed a cutaway of the 5.45x39 Russsian round and it had a air space in the nose of the bullet that would deform upon impact and "steer" the bullet sideways causing a larger wound.I suspect that because of operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, the military will be looking at improvements to the 5.56mm line of weapons and ammo.
 

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I will eject my 223 cents worth. The FMJ FRAGMENT the tatical guys worry about is driven by the Genovia Convention Agreement. It is more humane to Stop an opponent than to kill him? So now we have the FMJ bullets, The Fragmentation, Bullet speed to worry about.

Now in the Hunters camp, we have large grn bullets with massive amounts of retained energy (Stoping Power), and controled expansion/penetration, with retained bullet mass. This is about as opposite as you can get. I ask you guy's what's the diff. in droping a 150 lb man rapist or a 150 lb deer? Do you want either to go off and bleed or just drop em dead?

When a bullet fragments, the total energy goes to zero real quick. Where as a heavy bullet will retain more energy, and when the bullet jacket, and core expand, but retain mass for max penetration, the wound channel is huge even at long range, and lower bullet speed! Thats why my hunting pref. will also apply when the SHTF senareo! :p
 

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I don't know one way or another but i did a little test myself. I shot a 2 litter coke bottle full of water at 25 yards with a 55grn fmj and a 62 AP fmj. The 55 grn hit was explosive and 62 grn was not very exciting. It did rip the bottle some what but it did not explode. I did this test at 250-275 yards with scope. I thought I was missing the target. It took about 6 shots to knock the bottle over. Checking the target showed there were several hits and the bullet just passed thru without even knocking the bottle over. Just poke little holes letting the water leak out. This was with both the 55 and 62grn. This may or may not be related. I attended an assault rifle match last month. The range was 15 to 50 yards. The targets were camoflaged IPSC standard size and also some clay pigeons were posted on a tree at 45 yards. 20-25 shooters shot the course. 2/3 yes 2/3 did not finish leaving several targets unetralized. There were only 9 targets total and not time limit, these guys were just excited and trying to shoot fast. Most guys couldn't even hit the clay pigeons that were bright orange. Many of these guys were using AR15 with red dot sights and did have good equipment. I've shot with these guys for a while and the are very good IPSC shooters holding AB&C classifications, but add a some stress and range and they go to ****. Maybe those who are faced with real life and death combat experince the same syndrome and blame the round when really they are not hitting? So does anyone know for sure if these people in Afganistan who are not dropping to the 62 AP round are really getting serveal hits on them? Did anyone check the bodies for several bullet holes?
 

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bingo dchi. that was my question a few posts back up. are these guys making hits on these folks who wont lay down, or are they missing completely and saying 'WE NEED A BIGGER GUN' ....if in fact they are missing it aint the rounds fault. kinda like the city hunters i see in the woods come deer season, they are always carrying the biggest, loudest, shiniest magnum that money can buy, they most of them couldnt hit the barn if they was standing inside it. its true, a solid hit from a 30-30 is a damn sight better than a loud miss from a 300 magnum.
 
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