[grumpy_old_man]

Hi everyone;

This is not to be taken as "capitulation", but there are still good people living in NYS who need a good basic set of smallarms for self defense and use as members of the unorganized militia, as are all citizens of these United States. Yes, some already have fine weapons and some will not register or surender them. Or they will move to a freer, better state and keep what they have. This post isn't for them. This is for the new people starting out, who due to family or economic circumstance can't move but who still want to exercise their remaining freedoms and do so within the limits of an admittedly unjust law. They may also be under severe social pressure to keep them from exercising their rights, so this is also taken into account.

Okay, here are my ideas so far for the top 3 picks for rifles and sidearms:

Rifles
1. Series 581 Mini 14 or Mini 30, factory plastic stock, 10 shot mag blocked to 7. You'll need more of those blocked 10 bangers than you would with 20-30 bangers but it can be made to work with wise choice of load bearing gear and doctrine. Never shoot yourself dry, always swap mags on the count of "six" for the first magazine or "seven" if you top 'em off and start with a loaded chamber. Sights - tech sights package for irons only. If an optic is used, Millett DMS1 or equivalent. Not sure its available yet, but something like a magpul base plate on the 10 bangers would materially help with quick reloads. Maybe something like an ergonomic jacket over the magazine's base so you always grab it "right" and can reload eyes closed if need be.

2.SKS carbine. Go factory stock, but block the mag at 7 and get as much ammo as you can. A shortened stripper clip looks feasible to me, though it is irritating. Not sure if keeping your ammo on 10 shot stripper clips is still legal any more under the absurd "SAFE" act. Best thing is that this one is still reasonably affordable (comparatively speaking).

3. Lee Enfield Rifle No. 4, mag blocked to 7 with an internal spacer. This beast will sling lead with the Garand if you practice manipulating the bolt without unshouldering the arm, and has the advantage of not being semi-auto so it is positioned far enough away from any future bans that it looks really good to me. The SMLE of WWI fame is also viable, but being older its harder to find a really choice example (rifling worn, etc) at that same price point. Feeds from 5 shot stripper clips, so there's no issue of possible legality questions on the clips. What was a downside on the ammo has become a plus - .303 British is fully up there with the other cal. .30's but is actually available in the days of the ammo drought. Has the advantage of being an "antique collectible" so that if you have to explain it to someone, you're a collector of WWII memorobilia (hang a tin tommy hat next to it and a picture from Tobruk or the trenches of WWI, etc).

Sidearms:

1. M1911A1 clone. Need I say more?
2. Ruger GP100 - .357/.38spl is still an awesome pairing and if you add in a smallish .38 revolver like the S&W 642 you have your sidearm and concealed carry combo very well in hand.
3. S&W 586/686 - same advantages as (2) with a forged steel frame. Downside is the safety lock if you're buying new.

Oddball possibility - Webley .455 or Enfield .38 S&W (not .38spl) - If you are in a political situation where you need an "excuse" to buy a sidearm, this ties in well with rifle (3) particularly if you were lucky enough to find a WWI vintage SMLE in good shape. "Gosh, I just collect antiques from the world war" and you're an eccentric not a threat to any but the most rabid gun hater. Maybe you can even claim its something you inherited as a collection from a relative and are loathe to part with on sentimental grounds. On the plus side, you can still find oddballs like .455 and .38 S&W ammo. The Webleys and Enfields are also insanely quick to reload revolvers - that top break is VERY fast if you practice. I really regret selling my beloved Webley MKVI over 20 years ago and am looking for another....

Just some thoughts.
Any others?
All the best,
Grumpy

 

[usmc0341]

I'm not sure how legal this is under the SAFE act, and I don't know about how this would work in a mini series weapon but what about doing the Haji tape job with the 10 round mags? bottom to bottom or offset to the side? I know that is old skool mall ninja style but desperate times call for desperate measures..

 

[grumpy_old_man]

I'm not sure how legal this is under the SAFE act, and I don't know about how this would work in a mini series weapon but what about doing the Haji tape job with the 10 round mags? bottom to bottom or offset to the side? I know that is old skool mall ninja style but desperate times call for desperate measures..

Hi usmc0341;

I'm not sure if that would be okay under the SAFE act. I just took a few minutes out to read the thing and it says "has a capacity of more than ten rounds of ammunition" (weird thing is that you can only legally load 7 so as soon as that 8th round goes in you're a criminal). Doesn't say whether or not the magazine is okay if you have to pull it out and flip it.

I have seen factory made bottom-to-bottom adapters in Canada that were legal at that time (people were using 'em to sidestep the 5 shot limit for their AR's). Not sure about now - seems like everywhere is cracking down now.

You have recent combat experience - do you think it would be easier under stress to flip the mag over or to grab an ergonomically shaped mag out of a haversack and reload that way? I'm thinking something that would force you to grip it "right" so you can grab it with your eyes closed and reload even under stress. Maybe even put in a spring assist to get the thing clear when you push the mag release forward so you don't have to rock it out.

Best,
Grumpy

 

[gundoc]

On the subject of handguns, with the intent being home defense, a single action revolver such as the Black Hawk, Vaquero, and Italian copies seems to comply with the SAFE Act as I read it and allows for a larger caliber. Just a thought for the home, kind of impractical to conceal. Wouldn't the gun grabbers wet themselves if it looked like the Wild West in modern NY! Cowboy action shooting is a legitimate, organized sport.

Not so long ago I sporterized a SMLE and it was superbly accurate. I also had no trouble finding .303 to test fire it at reasonable cost.

FWIW, back in the day before tactical accessories we used paracord and duct tape to make loops for our mags which was the forerunner to today's Ranger Plates. we also taped the mags side to side with a spacer in between because we found that bottom to bottom it was too easy to damage the feed lips or have ammo fall out due to mag surge and of course rifle drills.

Your choices are well thought out and very good advice. While it's a sh*tty piece of legislation many of those on the outside don't grasp it's very real implications and penalties for violating it. And you're absolutely right about the social pressure and the effects it has on a person. Keep up the good work Grumpy and I hope you guys can get this overturned and back to business.

 

[Back Again (Drache Teufel)]

In my opinion. There got that outa the way. I wouldnt mess with a magazine fed rifle if its restricted to anything under 10 rounds. Now does that go for only semi auto's ? If so get a lever action in a pistol caliber .357 mag, .44 mag or .45 colt and a pistol to match it. I have a .45 colt model 94 trails end holds 11 rounds and can be loaded heavy for hunting rounds. 22 grains of h110 behind a 300 grain sierra bullet 1600-1700 fps, at 100 yards its better than a 30-30 and it holds 11 rounds. The 30-30 is undoubtedly better at further distances, but less rounds. I have a ruger redhawk to go along with it. If you do not reload a .357 maag or .44 mg may serve you better. These guns can easily topped off in a fire fight and to me that is better than magazine fed if limited to less than 10. Thats my thoughts anyway. Plus it doesn't make liberals squirm as much it looks like a cowboy gun, but believe me if you got really good with it its pretty deadly combined with the pistol. A .45 acp pistol wouldn't be bad either only 7 rounds but hits hard and fairly quick to reload.

 

[grumpy_old_man]

On the subject of handguns, with the intent being home defense, a single action revolver such as the Black Hawk, Vaquero, and Italian copies seems to comply with the SAFE Act as I read it and allows for a larger caliber. Just a thought for the home, kind of impractical to conceal. Wouldn't the gun grabbers wet themselves if it looked like the Wild West in modern NY! Cowboy action shooting is a legitimate, organized sport.

Not so long ago I sporterized a SMLE and it was superbly accurate. I also had no trouble finding .303 to test fire it at reasonable cost.

FWIW, back in the day before tactical accessories we used paracord and duct tape to make loops for our mags which was the forerunner to today's Ranger Plates. we also taped the mags side to side with a spacer in between because we found that bottom to bottom it was too easy to damage the feed lips or have ammo fall out due to mag surge and of course rifle drills.

Your choices are well thought out and very good advice. While it's a sh*tty piece of legislation many of those on the outside don't grasp it's very real implications and penalties for violating it. And you're absolutely right about the social pressure and the effects it has on a person. Keep up the good work Grumpy and I hope you guys can get this overturned and back to business.

Hi Gundoc;

Thanks for the kind words. As of now I'm safely out of Illinois but still trying to do what I can for the poor guys stuck in antigun states like NY, Kali, and IL.

Like the idea of a SAA 1873 or clone for self defense. It would certainly be easier to justify on the "antique" grounds (even if its a clone, most gun-haters are pretty ignorant so easy to snow that way). Agree that a Vaquero would probably be better from the standpoint of safety due to the improved mechanism and cost. Reloads are slower without the swingout cylinder or top break of a Schofield, but I think a New York reload would be appropriate under the circumstances, don't you?

Like the idea of paracord as a quick'n dirty sol'n. If we have to reload more often it just means we need to cut the down time between reloads with training and new techniques.

Lots of good pieces of kit out there from the WW2 and prior era, so it strikes me that with judicious selection it can be made to work. Of course the gun-grabbers will just come back for more later which is why we have to beat 'em now (if we can).

I think there will be a lot more room for this kind of thinking in the future as NY and Kali may be the first to pass bans but they won't be the last. Sounds like the poor suckers in MD are about to get hammered too. And there's CO, but at least you can have preban mags there (for now). Not sure how they'll do that with new immigrants (i.e. I will not even consider taking a job in Kali because I couldn't keep my preban stuff legally - their loss).

All the best,
Grumpy

 

[usmc0341]

Grumpy,
Its going to be all about Habit of Action (muscle memory if you will) I trained my platoons at least twice a week for the entire time that I had them (rain or shine, garrison or not) on mag swaps. Twice a week for two hours a time. And this would include pistol transition drills and pistol reloads as well.

Whenver I reloaded my rifle in combat it usually happened without me even thinking about it. I kept my mags as centered on the middle of my body as my armor would allow and the mag changes literally took less than a second in any position other than the prone.. Which is a position we all tried to avoid like the plague in an urban fight anyways..

Alot of guys in my platoon used those mag clamps for the first part of the deployment but usually got rid of them by halfaway through as it added a lot of bulk and weight to your weapon. Now in this case it would be 2 (10) round mags taped together and the weight would be negligible. You will be faster just doing the Haji flip if it is what you practice versus the pouch fed speed reload. Plus if you and your weapon get seperated from your gear you still have two mags.. 2 is 1, 1 is none.. You can also use a spacer and tape both mags the same direction, however, the problem with this is (on an AR-15) either you will have a mag blocking your bolt catch and release, or you will end up having a mag blocking your ejection port. Depending on which mag you had inserted.. THats why I don't bother with either method and simply keep my spare mags in my pouches..

I use a USMC mountian ruck and utilize the mag pouches on it to hold my spares as I use it as a shooting rest anyways and it keeps my reloads close to hand.

 

[LunaticFringeInc]

If the Lee Enfield No 4 is an option...why not a Mosin Nagant? It seems it would be just the ticket for a person in the militia. Robust, rugged and darn near indestructable. Ammo is fairly cheap and easy to come by by the case. The round is a heavy hitter capable of reaching out there and will definitely turn a lot of cover into concealment. The rifles are a lot easier to come by than the No 4 and probably considerably cheaper and in better shape bore wise.

I just picked up a very nice arsenal refinished Mosin Nagant 91/30 at Cabela's for a paltry 119.00. Initially I wasnt all that hot for Mosin Nagants and was hesitant to buy one, but after getting it home and caressing and fondling it, I am really pumped about it. In fact I am kicking myself in the butt for not getting at least 2 or 3 more of them while I was there and the getting was good! The next time they have another sale like that I will be pouncing on several more in no uncertain terms!!!

Its not a Remington 700 to be sure but at that price point...its a whole lot of gun for a price thats essentially Bus Fare! And at that price point if I get a scratch or scuff on it, it aint the end of the world either!

 

[grumpy_old_man]

If the Lee Enfield No 4 is an option...why not a Mosin Nagant? It seems it would be just the ticket for a person in the militia. Robust, rugged and darn near indestructable. Ammo is fairly cheap and easy to come by by the case. The round is a heavy hitter capable of reaching out there and will definitely turn a lot of cover into concealment. The rifles are a lot easier to come by than the No 4 and probably considerably cheaper and in better shape bore wise.

I just picked up a very nice arsenal refinished Mosin Nagant 91/30 at Cabela's for a paltry 119.00. Initially I wasnt all that hot for Mosin Nagants and was hesitant to buy one, but after getting it home and caressing and fondling it, I am really pumped about it. In fact I am kicking myself in the butt for not getting at least 2 or 3 more of them while I was there and the getting was good! The next time they have another sale like that I will be pouncing on several more in no uncertain terms!!!

Its not a Remington 700 to be sure but at that price point...its a whole lot of gun for a price thats essentially Bus Fare! And at that price point if I get a scratch or scuff on it, it aint the end of the world either!

Nothing wrong with the Mosin Nagant! Mostly I wanted to get the ball rolling and get people thinking about ways of doing what they want to do (have effective militia arms) while obeying absurd and unjust laws - at least for now.

Main reason I favor the Lee Enfields is the speed with which the bolt can be manipulated. You'd be amazed how quickly you can cycle and fire 10 shots from a SMLE from the shoulder. I remember a contest between Garand and Enfield where the Enfield either tied or won - can't recall which. It's super speedy though. Brits also had a cute trick for house-to-house fighting (CQB the WW2 way) for firing from the hip that I have read about. Haven't tried it myself so its grain of salt time. Basically, the knob of the bolt handle is slipped between thumb and palm. As the bolt closes, the trigger finger slaps the trigger firing the shot.

Of the Mosins, I would personally favor the M44, due to the short size and side folding bayo.

Anyway, thanks for the input and that's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to get going.

All the best,
Grumpy

 

[LordHood444]

I live in N.Y. myself, Grumpy, and I just picked up a .45 for carry and as use as a sidearm. Para Ordnance C7 Companion, sweet little shooter.
For a rifle, my 700 in .308 and my .30-06 03' springfield are serving well. the semi-autos are locked in a special spot until I have need of them, mags loaded, rounds chambered, safties engaged. 2 Mini-14s, an M1A,etc. plenty of ammo, and they'll stay there until I get out to my land in the summer for some practice, or this bull**** SAFE act is repealed. I was there last thursday in Albany, and it pisses me off to no end that Cuomo won't even budge. I surely didn't vote for him, but I have to fight against him. blah. We'll get through it. even if it takes time.

 

[LunaticFringeInc]

Nothing wrong with the Mosin Nagant! Mostly I wanted to get the ball rolling and get people thinking about ways of doing what they want to do (have effective militia arms) while obeying absurd and unjust laws - at least for now.

Main reason I favor the Lee Enfields is the speed with which the bolt can be manipulated. You'd be amazed how quickly you can cycle and fire 10 shots from a SMLE from the shoulder. I remember a contest between Garand and Enfield where the Enfield either tied or won - can't recall which. It's super speedy though. Brits also had a cute trick for house-to-house fighting (CQB the WW2 way) for firing from the hip that I have read about. Haven't tried it myself so its grain of salt time. Basically, the knob of the bolt handle is slipped between thumb and palm. As the bolt closes, the trigger finger slaps the trigger firing the shot.

Of the Mosins, I would personally favor the M44, due to the short size and side folding bayo.

Anyway, thanks for the input and that's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to get going.

All the best,
Grumpy

Okay cool I see.

I like the Enfields as well. Finding a good one these days is a bit tough and a bit on the pricey side and ammo aint exactly as plentiful as it once was either. Hence the reason the Mosin Nagant just hit me like a brick wall.

Pro's

* Not exactly a precision piece for serious long range work, but it will hammer a man sized target out there as far as you can likely see it.

* The ammo aint as cheap as it once was but 440 tins of it is still available for 69-89 fun dollars which aint bad. Further more its well protected and preserved in the tins for long term storage already with not much additional effort on your part required.

* Reasonably priced guns. There are still a lot of them out there for bargan prices, especially right now. You can afford one for yourself and still afford to buy another one for a spare or a hand out to a fellow patriot joining the cause if they are empty handed.

* Extremely rugged rifles. They are likely to handle a lot more punishment and abuse than you are ensuring they will soldier on long after your likely to be around.

* Extremely simple designed. Unlikely to break on you and pretty easy to repair in most cases even under field conditions by even the modestly skilled person with hand tools. Parts are pretty cheap to get as well. Many could likely be fashioned from bar stock in a garage work shop.

* Proven design that has worked in weather extremes from the desert in temps over 115 degrees to the brutal winters in temps below 0 degrees with ice and snow.

Con's

* Most were used hard and some were straight up abused. There are still a lot of good shooters out there for a song and dance.

* The surplus ammo out there is corrosive. Not a big deal but you do got to take cleaning a little more serious after a firing session.

* Lupau Brass is expensive making reloading it more expensive than many other options out there.

Just a few selling points I thought of off the top of my head.

 

[grumpy_old_man]

Okay cool I see.

I like the Enfields as well. Finding a good one these days is a bit tough and a bit on the pricey side and ammo aint exactly as plentiful as it once was either. Hence the reason the Mosin Nagant just hit me like a brick wall.

Pro's

* Not exactly a precision piece for serious long range work, but it will hammer a man sized target out there as far as you can likely see it.

* The ammo aint as cheap as it once was but 440 tins of it is still available for 69-89 fun dollars which aint bad. Further more its well protected and preserved in the tins for long term storage already with not much additional effort on your part required.

* Reasonably priced guns. There are still a lot of them out there for bargan prices, especially right now. You can afford one for yourself and still afford to buy another one for a spare or a hand out to a fellow patriot joining the cause if they are empty handed.

* Extremely rugged rifles. They are likely to handle a lot more punishment and abuse than you are ensuring they will soldier on long after your likely to be around.

* Extremely simple designed. Unlikely to break on you and pretty easy to repair in most cases even under field conditions by even the modestly skilled person with hand tools. Parts are pretty cheap to get as well. Many could likely be fashioned from bar stock in a garage work shop.

* Proven design that has worked in weather extremes from the desert in temps over 115 degrees to the brutal winters in temps below 0 degrees with ice and snow.

Con's

* Most were used hard and some were straight up abused. There are still a lot of good shooters out there for a song and dance.

* The surplus ammo out there is corrosive. Not a big deal but you do got to take cleaning a little more serious after a firing session.

* Lupau Brass is expensive making reloading it more expensive than many other options out there.

Just a few selling points I thought of off the top of my head.

Good post.

Yep, the Nagants are pretty near soldier proof as are most of their contemporaries, and unlike something like the Kar98K or Springfield '03 (which I viewed as the chief bolt action competitors against the Enfield)are not super pricey or collectible now. Availability of cheap 7.62x54R is certainly a big plus too.

Good point on the corrosive ammo; a lot of new shooters don't know how to clean it properly.

All the best,
Grumpy