[mtnwatcher]

greetings to all.

i've been lurking around for about a week now. it's been great to read about all the experiences and idea's. i'm gettin all itchy again to do something about my mini. i think the mini-14 is a great gun for what it's built for. i'd just like to maximize it's potential without spending $1000. if i had that kind of money i'd start looking for an m1a. but my wife keeps naggin me about feeding and clothing the children.

anyway, lemme introduce my mini briefly.

i got it in '94, used, but in excellent condition. it's a standard blued 183. i added a choates pistolgrip stock, bec eurolux 4x scope, eagle hk style flash supressor, eagle barrel shroud, 1 5rnd ruger mag, 1 35rnd thermold eagle mag, 2 30 blued mags, and 3 40 rnd blued mags of unknown origin.

i haven't had a feeding problem yet. i did give the steel mags a little adjusting when i got them, which was mostly fileing of jagged edges, and a little bending here and there to make them match the ruger mag.

originally i was happy just to have the gun to go plinking with something more powerful than a .22. then, in the summer of 2000, i read about the miracles that could happen at 500 yards in the advert for that scope i bought. so that's how i was made aware of how bad the accuracy of the mini was. i had been shooting my Dad's 10/22 since i was 12, and was deeply disappointed when i didn't get the same level of accuracy from the mini. 'oh well, all things can be improved' thought i as i logged onto the internet and looked for ways to tighten my 8" 100m groups.

unfortunately for some reason i didn't find this forum til last week.

incidentally, i was trained how to shoot properly in the Army ROTC ranger cadet program at a college i attended. so i'm a decent shooter.

the first thing i found was the idea about the gas block fix. i looked at mine and it had a pretty even gap all around so i didn't polish anything but did torque the screws to 16 psi w/guntight to keep 'em there. i shot 10 3 rnd groups with no noticable difference.

the next thing was to try handloads with the new RCBS reloading kit i got for x-mas. i found the groups tightened with a 63 gr. sierra sp spitzer, 23 gr. . ....oh,hell...i just blanked out...hodgson blc2?(i'll get it right and let ya know.), cci primers, and remington brass. 3-6" 100m groups now. this was my first attempt at any kind of tweaking of a firearm and i think at this point i got the disease. i had to get more accurate. my wife said i was getting obsessive.

next i read about shimming and bedding and decided to bed the choates stock. accraglass gel around the mag well, trigger, all around the receiver lugs, and up on top between the reciever and stock. 4 long days later, i was elated by the 1.5-2.5" 100m groups.

i thought i was done. then as i continued to shoot the gun over the next three months, the groups gradually widened out to 3-6" again. i haven't shot it in a while. was even thinking about selling it and saving up for a AR15, but i like the simplicity of the mini14, and would keep it if i could get the kind of accuracy Z-man, Cajungeo did.

so i read here that the glass deteriorates(sp?). i have no problem glassing the stock again. but i've also read about glassing the slide channel. thats something i didn't do. i will if it would restore my groups. haven't found a thread yet that explains how and was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to explain how or even if i should.

i have many more questions, but i thought i'd start with the bedding first.


i haven't found a cool quote yet, but i have seen a picture of a bear attack i'd like to show some liberals.

thanks!

 

[Mike494]

I'm not sure if the bedding needs to be redone. Cajungeo, or one of the other guys might shed some light on this. However, you did not mention a muzzle brake. If you dont have one, it should help your group size. Have you tried different weight bulets???? My mini likes the 52gr Sierra Match bullets best. Cajungeo's seems to like the 62's. Both rifles have a 1 in 9 twist. Anyway, get the brake, and keep looking at different bullet/powder combinations. Oh, one note, the mini seems to be very sensitive to how you hold it. I have noticed from one day to the next, if I vary on pressure on the stock, so does my group size. I am generally shooting between 1.5 and 1.75 groups at 100 yds. My best group is close to 1" at 100.

 

[cajungeo]

Welcome to the forum mtnwatcher. Sounds like you have the bug as many of us do.

Mike gave you a good tip. The first mod I did to my mini was a muzzle brake. I installed a BlackWarrior double muzzle brake from Cheaper than Dirt for $19.95. It pins on over the front sight. It cut my average groups down from 4 1/2" to avg of 2 1/4" at 100 yds. using a bench rest.

i was elated by the 1.5-2.5" 100m groups. i thought i was done. then as i continued to shoot the gun over the next three months, the groups gradually widened out to 3-6" again.

Several things, could cause the decrease in accuracy in a few months time. First thing comes to mind is a copper build up from the jacketed bullets. Regular bore cleaner will do nothing to copper. There are several Copper bore cleaners on the market. I'm using Hoppies Benchrest Copper cleaner. For a heavy build up you could leave it in your bore over night. Sweets 7.62 is very strong, do not leave in your bore more than 15 min max. or it will etch your bore. Since you have a blue mini, you don't have to worry about ammonia based cleaners the way we SS owners do. It will pit SS.

Second thing could be a worn or damaged crown from improper cleaning (cleaning rod wearing down crown. Use a muzzle guide, or cable/weedwacker line, and pull patches thru.) or crown damage from impact.

Third thing may be your reloads. The mini has a heavy recoil, which may change your bullet seating depth unless your crimp. I do not crimp, but I have greatly reduced the recoil, by installing a smaller gas port bushing, and a rubber recoil buffer.

Fourth thing may be your bedding job shot out prematurely (normally last years), because of exposure to bore cleaner (will soften bedding), or large voids in your bedding job, especially around the recoil lugs. If your Choate stock has more plastic, than fiberglass, you need to drill many 1/8" holes in the inside of stock when bedding to form mechanical locks. (I don't know about choate, but butler creek has a lot of plastic). Also if you have a stock reinforcement, you need to bed both sides i.e. Stock to reinforcement, and reinforcement to receiver.

Sorry I didn't mean to write a book, hope these ideas give you a place to start, to get it back.

BTW when you get your mini "back in the black" Vist our 10/22 forum, and gallery to see what we are doing with the .22

 

[mtnwatcher]

Mike-
i've tried hornady 68 gr HPBTmatch but they didn't help. what's your powder/brass/primer combo with the 52 gr sierra's?
also, when i shoot, i set the fore on my open hand, if not on an object. when i can't do that in a position i try to hold the gun between the trigger and mag. but maybe, if one squeezes the stock just right you'll get a better group? now that would be an art!

Cajungeo-
forgot to mention that i do have a recoil buffer(the one that sits against the reciever.).

thanks for the tips on cleaners. i'll keep those in mind.
i haven't used a bore cleaner since i got my bore snake. someone told me i didn't need it. were they leading me astray? anyway i'll remove the FH, and check the crown.

been thinking about the smaller gas bushing. i'm also really intrigued by the idea of shaving off a little from the front of the operating rod lessen the impact at that point, or at least install a rubber washer or o-ring.

found out about the mechanical lock thing the first time i glassed that stock. so i guess i've done that twice, actually. could you expound on what you mean about "stock reinforcement"? i don't know what that is, specifically.

i beat up the stock front sight blade pretty good when i removed it to install the FH. i might need another if i get the blackwarrior. but having already drank from the "holy grail" once, i'd like to see if i can do it again without changing my current configuration. that's why i'm wondering if there is something wrong or incomplete with my bedding job. i have noticed that it's alot easier to separate the stock and reciever than when i first glassed.

so glassing under the slide channel is unneccessary?

 

[bubba052698]

Hi mtnwatcher,

I'm not sure about the other questions, but the stock reinforcement that caj is talking about is the metal "liner" (for lack of a better term) that screws in to the stock. The ruger wood stock and choate pistol grip stock require this, while the ruger synthetic stock does not. The reinforcement is what the recoil lugs slide into and it absorbs most of the recoil. By bedding this into your stock, it further stiffens things up.

For what it's worth, I originally had a ruger synthetic stock and bought the choate pistol grip. Not knowing the choate needed that liner, I shot it for a week or so without it. My shots were going all over the place, hehe

 

[Kalifornia Citizen]

mtnwatcher,
In your last post, you mentioned that you'd like to try an o-ring, rubber washer, or cut off some of the operating rod. I tried o-rings. While they noticeably change the feel and reduce clank, they don't last very long. They break before 100 rounds and fall out of place. I cleaned the gas block very well and squirted Permatex Red to absorb shock. I haven't yet disassembled for an inspection, and I've only put about another 200 rounds through it. I'll report on that later, it may be a couple of months though.

About cutting down the op-rod, my opinion is don't do it. Looking at how it all works, it looks like Ruger intended for the op-rod to slam on the gas block, to prevent extra wear on the bolt and receiver.

By the way, I don't think a front buffer helps accuracy. For me, it feels smoother and that's as good a reason as any to put one on - if you can find a good way to do it! Let me know if you come up with something. Thanks,

KC

 

[cajungeo]

i haven't used a bore cleaner since i got my bore snake. someone told me i didn't need it. were they leading me astray?

Then the copper has been building in up for 3 months of shooting. Clean it with a Copper bore cleaner. Then shoot for group size with the same ammo. You should see an improvement. The copper will come out a blue or green on your cleaning patch. Ya have ta get it all out. May have to let it soak. Use a bronze brush to help scrub it.

 

[Mike494]

Mtnwatcher,

I am using Sierra 52gr HPBT match grade bullets. I am currently using 25.5gr of Winchester 748. The primer is also Winchester. (WSR). The brass is Lake City, trimmed to 1.750".
The bullet is seated to 2.250". Now I am going to start trying different powder charges of 748 and also IMR 4895.
It took me a while to settle on the 52gr Sierra. I have leftover bullets in most every weight for this .223. I have loaded bullets from 40 gr all the way to 75gr. I used the starting load for all of these bullets and took them to the range. My rifle just shoots those 52's the best. Now, on to finding the best powder charge.
(By the way, the 25.5 gr powder charge can be found in the Winchester loading manual. Most manuals do not show a charge below 26.1gr. Just letting you know it is a published load, and not something I made up.)
Good luck on finding that bulet/powder combo.

 

[mtnwatcher]

sorry i haven't replied in a while. we're playing catchup at work on a contract. so i gotta work long hours.

i appreciate the feedback greatly.

i do have a stock reinforcement and i glassed the lugs where they fit inside.

got some copper solvent(birchwood/casey)2-in-1 copper and nitro bore cleaner, but haven't been able to do anything with it yet.

i have been doing a little trigger work. got it down to 5 lbs. and it's much smoother. just that little bit and i feels so much better already. but i'm takin it slow so i don't over do it. still wanna get to 3.75-4 lbs. many thanks to all who took the time to share their methods.

on that matter, has anyone cut coils off the spring that pushes the hammer to reduce trigger pull?

also i'd like to know, if the bolt was tighter to the receiver when a round is chambered, would that possibly improve accurracy? i have a little movement in my bolt when it's closed. i heard that consistent tight bolt closure is one of the reasons bolt action guns are so accurate. that's the main reason i was interested in shortening my op-rod.

just thinkin out loud now, tho. i'm gonna clean my bore really good before i do anything else.

i'll be sure to post the results.

thanks

 

[cajungeo]

Hey mtnwatcher. I wouldn't replace the hammer spring for a lighter one, or cut the coils. This may give you lite firing pin strikes, and will not affect your trigger pull. I have done a similar trigger job on my 10/22. You want a strong hammer spring. You may want to replace the trigger spring for a lighter one. So we are on the same wave length. Hammer spring = #25, Trigger spring = #65. On this site: http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp...20RANCH%20RIFLE

Brownells probably has the trigger spring. Give them a search.

The big limiting factor on the mini, besides the thin flimsy barrel is the loose A2 chamber, distance from bullet to lands, on my mini is about .90" (if I'm remembering from 6 months ago), and the magazine is what limits the bullet length. If the mini had a deeper mag. My reloads could be seated to within .010" or so from the lands, Now we would be talking near .75" groups at 100 yds.

You are correct the bolt action is more consistant, and can have a tighter chamber for better accuracy, but wouldn't be as much fun to shoot as the mini. :ar15:

 

[mtnwatcher]

well, i have learned a few more things thanks to this forum. i need to redo the glass on my mini.

do you think Pres. Bush would hold off that ultimatum for a week til i get my glass redone? i wouldn't want to get caught in a terrorist attack with my weapon down.

i did take it shooting last sunday, and the cleaning seemed to help but i still got erratic groups. 2.5 was the best but there was nothing consistent. maybe i'm rusty.

i again searched the forum and discovered that i didn't glass the stock reinforcements to the stock......doh! soon as i get a chance i'll do that, and report back.

i did get the trigger down to 4 lbs. using valve lapping compound. i'm very happy with the results i got, thanks to mughi 14! so i'll keep the stock springs in for now.

 

[Swordslinger]

This bunch has really helped me with my minigb. Here is my history with the mini. I was shooting groups of 3" to 6" at 100yd with numerous fliers just a couple of months ago. I fisrst bedded the stock without any instruction and it really improved the group size, cut it in half. But due to me not knowing how to bed the stock it shot out prematurely and I was back where I started. I rebedded the stock and began shooting groups around 1 1/4 to 2". Best group at that time was 1 3/16.

I then purchased the Houge o/m stock and a Lee aniversery realoading kit. I was just starting and did not want to spend the big money so I went with Lee, and love it! I bedded the Houge stock useing the instruction and photos I found on this page. Took this bad boy to the range and began fireing factory loads to settle the bedding, about 50 or so. Then I began to shoot my handloads starting with the lowest and worked up to the highest. I then dropped back down to 24.9 grains "work up to it" of H335 and a 55gr Nosler bal- tip boattail. My average group size is 1" and under, with the best group at 100yds measured center to center at greatest spread with a digital caliper was .217" This was a shock to me as well, so much of a shock I packed my range bag and went home! The group is now proudly displayed over my bench and when I get a digital camera it will be here also.

Other mods include:
Sanded the upper gas block down and evenly gapped.
B-square bipod
High Country scope
Took of a very small amount of the slide. By hand I used a diamond stone to even it up.
Bufferteck shock buffer split in half.
I also cut a limbsaver " dampening system for bows" to fit around the gas piston and against the gas block to keep the slide from slaming into the block. Really helped. I have over 500 rd through it with no problems.

Hope this helps you!bv:sniper:

 

[voruzon]

Swordslinger: Took of a very small amount of the slide. By hand I used a diamond stone to even it up.

Could you please explain in detail where and how you did it?

Sanded the upper gas block down and evenly gapped.

That too, as much detail as possible.

V.

 

[cajungeo]

mtnwatcher, keep up the effort when you can. The thing about the mini is you can have fun as you go. As far as learning, I learn something new about the mini every day.

Swordslinger, you shure have made progress with your mini. You have a real shooter there. Isn't reloading great! I have a 63 grain load to shoot near 1" avg. Now I'm working on a lighter 50 grn ballistic tip, and 52 grn hpbt, to see which shoots best for poping smaller varmints.

You know if you think about it you have turned the mini's weakness (accuracy) into one of its strength's. I dig it!

 

[Swordslinger]

Yeah its cool! I have only tried the 55 grain so far. I discovered when testing factory ammo per your "cajungeo" advise, that 55s worked the best. Probaly due to the gb's 1 in 10" twist. My first bunch was loaded at 22grains of h335 to work up from there, that was a sweet load too with very little recoil. As to voruson's question. I ran across a 1987 guns&ammo piece called tuning the mini 14 by a dude by the name of Ed Harris? Im not sure where but I know there is someone on this board who knows because I heard it from here. He used to work for ruger and said that grinding the slide down so that it would not slam against the gas block, " he gives measurments in the articcle; you can find it". I did not go all the way here, I was affraid that it would put to much stress it the area where the slide rod conects to the bolt. I did notice something he pionted out in the article, you could see that the slide was slamming against the gas block unevenly. So all I did was use a diamond stone to even it up and make it perectly flat.

As far as the top half of the gas block goes they seldomly come from ruger gapped evenly. Also in the same peice he described what z-man did. He took off the top half of the gas block and put a piece of fine sand paper on a very flat surface, such as plate glass, and sanded until even then evenly tourqed the screws. It did not have a inch pounds wrench so I snugged them and used loktite blue.

Do search on your browser for Mini 14 accuracy and you will aventulaly find the piece that I speak of, but i would bet one of the experts on this board will be able to put you right on it.

Good luck:sniper:

 

[bushwack]

Swordslinger---That was me who did the mod on the operating rod that Ed Harris wrote about. I had to grind down both the operating rod & then the gas piston as the piston bottomed out in the operating rod before all the slack was taken up in the bolt. Now when the bolt is in batery there is absolutely no back & forth play in it. The way I look at it the bolt better be strong enough to take being locked up tight when in battery because it's the only thing between my pretty face & 50K psi chamber pressure. I've only had a chance to go to the range once since doing the mod & the wind was terrible that day so I can't say if it helped accuracy or not

Good shooting
Bushwack

 

[special poop]

Mtn dude - do a search here on fire lapping the barrel. there is a product I learned of on this forum called Final Finish that gave me noticably tighter groups and I'm proud so say "I don't do flyers anymore." I don't have the link for thier site anymore or I'd just stick it here -
ANyway, it's cheap, easy, fun, and it'll make you happy. Kind of like beer.

 

[mtnwatcher]

Bushwack,

i'm really interested to hear if your op-rod mod has any effect on your weapon and how it shoots.

Special poop,

i'm gonna wait on the fire-lapping thing. since i got this gun used, i don't know how many rounds have gone through it. and i don't have the knowlegde t know if it needs it.

Cajungeo,

do ya think that you could drop in a round by hand, instead of feeding from a mag, that had been seated longer and get that .75 group?

 

[special poop]

If you check out their website they talk about it's benefits on everything from brand new barrels to very old with throat issues. It can be used for minor touch-ups or major polishing. I'm not working for the company or anything here...hehe - just think it's worth a good look.

 

[cajungeo]

Originally posted by mtnwatcher
Cajungeo, do ya think that you could drop in a round by hand, instead of feeding from a mag, that had been seated longer and get that .75 group?

I'm shure it would help with accuracy, but it kinda defeats the purpose of a semi-auto. I measured the inside of my mag, and seat the bullets to 2.260". Just enough to feed reliably.

If you or anyone else new to reloading I would advise against seating the bullet shallower, than the mag allows, as seating depth, and bullet stability, in the case under recoil (seating depth can change in your mag under recoil!) This could drive chamber pressure up to a dangerous level, damage to gun or shooter can ocur. An experienced reloader is aware of the pit falls, and can deal with them.

It is recommended to seat to specifications listed in your reloading manual. Also experimenting with bullet seating depth with the same powder is dangerous.