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I'm looking for the article that I read but cannot remember where it was. It was something about tilting your head downwards causes you to 'bob' because your brain is constantly trying to keep you from 'falling'.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
Most of us know that you always want the scope as low on the rifle as possible so we can get a good cheek weld.

That's why we sometimes have to fight with a bolt that comes up too high and makes contact with the scope on a bolt action rifle........then the best solution is to have a gunsmith modify the bolt angle to work with the scope height.

When scopes first became popular gunsmiths got a lot of work modifying bolts and stocks to work properly with the new technology. Stocks quickly evolved to become high enough to give us the correct sighting plane.

What was needed for offhand (which is how most of our practical shooting is done) was a higher comb (to line the eye up with the scope) and more drop at the butt of the stock to get proper shoulder fit.

In offhand shooting the comb of the stock should lock solidly into the cheekbone pocket just under the cheekbone.

A lot of people (too many) never think about fit........but fit is critical if you want to shoot your best.

You should NEVER just buy a rifle and adjust your body to the rifle........you ALWAYS adjust the rifle and sight to your body.

Here's some good info on cheek weld and other important parts of shooting well.


Cheek Weld
So we have your two hands and your shoulder pocket. But I promised there are four places where the gun should touch your body. The last one is actually your cheek. “Cheek weld” refers to the firm contact that your cheek should make with the top of your stock. When adjusted properly, good cheek weld should allow your dominant eye to comfortably look straight into your scope or sights. It also has the benefit of serving as an additional “anchor point”, a term I borrow from archery. In archery, an anchor point refers to a place on the body that the hand or string will touch with the bow is fully drawn and ready to shoot. This point serves as a cue to the shooter that they are set in a proper position and allows them to reproduce that position with every shot. I use a couple anchor points in my archery shooting. I always bring my index finger knuckle to a bony area just behind my ear and I always make sure the string lightly touches my nose at full draw. Anchor points are critical for accuracy and consistency.
When it occurred to me that rifle marksmanship should operate on the same principles it was a major Ah-ha! moment. The place where the cheek rests on the stock is an anchor point for rifle shooters. If you have ever struggled and had to move your head around to try to get a full, clear image through your scope, you likely have a cheek weld problem. And if you’re anything like me, correcting this problem will result in an immediate improvement in shooting. In my own trial-and-error process, I discovered that I would actually need to modify my stock in order to achieve proper cheek weld (I will discuss this in much greater detail below).
 
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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
More helpful and important info on cheek weld.

This is from the UK where they have been especially slow to adjust.......but seem to be adjusting.

If we fit a telescopic sight, which began on hunting rifles in the mid-1900s, the cheek must be raised 20-40mm up off the comb to accommodate the new sight picture. This breaks the cheek weld – one of the four vital points of contact with the rifle (the others being the forehand, the pistol grip and the shoulder). If we break the cheek weld we have 25% less hold, 25% more wobble, and our perception of recoil is also increased, perhaps by more than 25%.
 
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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
On rifles like the Ranch.......add-ons like this can be a help.

A proper solid cheek weld is required........

for better stability, comfort, and allows optimum focusing through a scope.

All these will greatly increase accuracy and speed to your target. Some rifles are

designed for open sights such as lever action guns, military rifles or shotgun and

combo rifle/shotguns but do not allow a cheek weld when a scope or red dot optic

sight is installed. Some large reticle target scopes must be mounted higher to clear

the barrel. Whatever the case our comb raisers will correct the comb height and

give you a proper line of sight. Our comb raisers are being used by Military and

police sniper units all over the world.

 
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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
"Face weld" is a better more inclusive term considering all the multi use firearms. Cheek, Chin, or jaw... whatever works to get you on target quickly to stabilize the weapon for firing. Whatever your methods, they should be repeatable. You may memorize 3 or 4 "welds" for different uses and situations with the same gun. I can name 3 for my Mini-30

1) cheek weld for iron sights
2) a bit below cheek for scout scope
3) more of a jaw weld for conventional scope

And finally my favorite 4) using the cheek of my SO while we're both lying prone on the beach with her in her bikini. It's hard to describe. Each couple must find the position that works for them.
LOL! For a second I couldn't figure out which cheek you were talking about.

Yes, your post demonstrates that we all have unique needs for proper form and fit.

Military and older rifles offer special challenges.

I remember (many years ago) when my father in law got a scope for his old Remington Model 742.

He could not abandon his iron sights so he got "See Thru" mounts that put the scope way up high.........and, of course, that put his head up high off the comb and wavering all over the place when he used the scope.

I told him that was ridiculous and that he'd never hit anything with the scope.........but he always got his deer........while I, with my correctly mounted scope--never did as well as him.

:D

I suspect he never used the scope........anyway, he was a superb deer hunter. Maybe that made all the difference.

Nonetheless, we should all at least attempt to optimize our potential for proper fit for good shooting.
 
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Discussion Starter #26
And finally............here's the actual rifle that started all this.

63737
 

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That is indeed a beauty.

What is that sight and does it have to be so high up?

Looks like it would be hard to use.
Thanks.
The sight on the rail is a TRS-25 red-dot.
The rail it is on is about the only way to mount an optic on the early Minis (before the Ranch models and scope-scallops) shy of an UltiMak or tapping: they were never intended/designed originally to mount a scope. The ejection on a non-Ranch Mini is more vertical than horizontal, so mounting an optic over the ejection "port" can be problematic. The mount installation is reversible: it is mounted to the Mini by replacing the bolt-stop cover-plate with that mount. One uses a chin-weld rather than a cheek-weld when using the optic. Not particularly difficult with a red-dot for snap-shooting...once you figure out the whole chin-weld thingy. The one advantage of that lash-up is one can still use the irons with it installed: just shift to a cheek-weld.

These days, the TRS-25 is off the 181GB and on the 583 Tactical. I may eventually remove the rail to get it fully back to original, but I like the option of being able to mount a red-dot (or a scope) should needs/desires change. Here's a close-up on how it is mounted.
63738
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Thanks.

I was not aware of the difficulties with optics on the older Minis.

Never heard the term "chin-weld" before this thread. Weld means joined together or connected solidly. I wouldn't call it a weld (unless you're one of those guys with a Kirk Douglas cleft in your chin). :)

I have another Mini (a 582) with a nice little 2x7 Burris on it. I just checked it and I do indeed have to use a "jaw-rest" with that. Not nearly as stable, but doable. I'd hate to try that chin rest thing.

Now that people have been using optics on Minis for many years......I'm just surprised that there are not better ways to get it done.

Maybe there are. Maybe someone will post one here. I'd truly like to have a better, low mount, way to put an optic on my 582 Mini. I may just take the scope off if I can't do better or at least get a comb raiser cheek pad to put my eye in line with the scope using a proper cheek-weld.

Anyhow, you have a grand old Mini there........I love the look of the classic M14 and M1 rifles and I must say I think they were the last of the good looking military rifles. The Garand won WWII for us and did it with the good old peep sight.

The youngsters here are probably unaware of how the Germans feared our M1 and the sharp-eyed country boys who could routinely kill them at extreme ranges.
 
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Discussion Starter #29
I ordered a couple of these.


I'll report back when I get them.

I have a 77/22 that I think could also use one.
 

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I ordered a couple of these.


I'll report back when I get them.

I have a 77/22 that I think could also use one.
Those cheek risers don't work well, they are too soft, and by the time you weld your face to it, the pad sinks downs all the way to the stock. Cheapest and best thing I use are those Allen butt stock ammo pouches and some 1inch foam tubing you get in the weather stripping isle at Home Depot. Stuff a couple of tubes between the stock and ammo pouch, and once you cinch the Velcro strips down tight, it wont budge or give. Just make sure you put enough tubing under the ammo pouch to still have a rise once you start buckling it down.
1.png
 

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I have come to like the ITC cheek rest: Rifle cheekrest,cheekpad most versatile ITC Cheekrest I own, and use a couple of them.

Multiple colors available. Cut and fit included form to suit user's needs. User-configurable; can "raise" contact point without pushing cheek away from stock, and user can re-adjust to suit. Unit easy to remove if desired. Mfr also makes "Railrest" for tubular stocks (Samson), but haven't tried that. Some versions available on Amazon, along with reviews: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product...1&pd_rd_w=JStQk&pd_rd_wg=myGGx&ref_=pd_gw_unk

Some folks mention cheek riser sometimes moving on stock, but some sticky-back velcro should solve that possible problem. If needed, install soft, furry velcro on stock, and "hook" velcro inside cheek rest. I believe the Cordura will likely be more durable than the "wetsuit" material, but don't know for sure.

Disclaimer: No financial interest.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Thanks again to ALL for the great info.

And just to show that this cheek riser solution to optics has been going on for a long time.........here's an ad from the June, 1950 American Rifleman. :)

63761
 

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I am so glad you could use that stock. The LOP was too much for me.
kwg
Oh really, it worked out terrific for me, even the placement of the front swivel stud you installed. You really need to duplicate that on another stock that you can use. But it work great with my M1 web sling

 

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The M24 M14 scope mount was the same type mount as the
original Ruger Mini 14 (181+) series side mount.
Hard to concentrate on cheek weld when there's incoming
and you have to shoot and scoot.
Paper doesn't shoot back so learn how to hit an adversary
on the move. Cheek weld is good for snipers, in a running
gun fight not so much. It's hard enough to keep your head
on a swivel to see where and what requires your attention.
Practice point and shoot also shooting from different positions.
Be as tough on your self as possible the harder you train
the better your chances.
If all you want to do is shoot holes in paper pay no attention
to this post...
 
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