[RayZorback]

Hey everyone!
Glad I found this forum! You guys have a wealth of information.

I have an old 243 and an old 30-30 hunting rifle and I'm looking to upgrade to an AR platform. I'd like to be able to take game up to 400 or 500 yards but most of my shots are about 250 yards max.

My concerns with the AR15 (.223/5.56) is that it might not get the job done and I'm not into wounding animals or multiple shots. 1 shot, 1 kill.

My concerns with the AR10 (.308/7.62) is that it is not going to be "wife friendly" due to the kick and I'd really like to get her on the range & in the woods (it's something she wants to do but the "kick" makes her nervous). And if she is home and there is an intruder, I'd rather her use an AR than a "Joe Biden Double Barrel". Another concern on the AR10 is that they seem to be "bench only" guns. I haven't seen many people doing 250 yard run & guns with a .308. Any specific reason for this? Weight? Kick? Both?

Note: I'm looking at Rock River Arms LAR-15s and LAR-8s (isn't that an AR-10?? If not, what is the difference? So confusing...)

I'll post separately about optics, but if any of you gun aficionados could help me decipher the best platform, I would be very greatful.

Thank You!!

 

[woodstock]

AR 10 is the original designation as was designed by Armalite. I think the main drawback to the AR10 or LR308 is weight. Recoil would be less than with a .308 bolt gun and a .308 is considered fairly light on recoil anyway but that may not be how the wife sees it. I have used a .243 for years but decided to build an AR in 6.8SPC and I used it to take two deer this last season. I personally wouldn't take a 4-500 yard shot at game with 5.56x45 but I have never had a shot that long anyway. If I was hunting somewhere that a shot like that was likely I would be shooting something like a .270 (minimum), 30 06, 7mm Mag or 300 Mag. I might feel safe using a .243 out to 350 or so and maybe a little farther with .308 but the problem is not making the shot at that distance, it's more about having enough retained energy to do some damage when it got there. Any of the rifles I mentioned would make a shot at 4-500 but it's a matter of whether they would make the kill that has to be considered.

 

[PigBat]

Wait, I'm confused.
You want to be able to make one-shot 400 yard kills, so you're looking at a really expensive, really heavy semiauto for "one shot, one kill" hunting.
Unless hogs as varmints (i.e., kill every one you see) are on the menu, I confess I'm missing the connection. A bolt rifle in any of the flavors woodstock already listed (plus the non-magnum 6.5 and 7mm cartridges) would be lighter, cheaper, and overall a better tool than an AR-10 type rifle.

The AR-10 type rifles are heavy bastards that feel even heavier than they are. They also run about a double kilobuck unless you build one (not a good idea for your first AR-style rifle). Everything about them is expensive and not readily available.
The AR-15 type rifles are far more user-friendly, cheaper, and readily available, but you aren't going to make a 400 yard big game rifle out of one, unless you go to 6.8 or 6.5 Grendel. Even those are pretty marginal and require you to be a damn good rifleman.

Now, if you just want to get an AR-15 because you want one and they're fun and everyone should have one (all valid reasons, IMO), then a lightweight flattop AR with a 16 inch barrel, mid-length gas and a light 1-4x scope is as good as it gets. Both you and your wife will enjoy the hell out of it.

With appropriate ammo and a willingness to accept the range limitations, the .223 is a competent pig and deer rifle (if legal). If you get an upper in 6.8 or .300 BLK, you can stretch that a bit.

 

[BRL]

What PigBat said.

Had a stainless 16" Armilite AR-10 with a muzzle brake, (whose concussion could knock over trees :blink that I free floated with an American Sprit Arms free float tube and added a JP trigger.

It was quite accurate but simply too heavy to carry around strapped to my back while riding on a quad, or packing around for any legnth of time.

 

[TacticalGenius]

You can get some of the .308 AR platform to weigh in at about a pound or so heavier than an AR15. ARP has lightweight barrels and they are reportedly very accurate and on his site he says what components go with it to make the rifle pretty lite. From his website...

"If you are tired of lugging a heavy 308 around through the woods this barrel is the solution. 1lb 14oz

A 7.5lb 308 is possible by using a carbon ff tube, DPMS lightweight receiver and MOE stock. Maybe less if we make a lightweight carrier. These barrels use a .750 gas block and mid length gas tube."

Otherwise, I would recommend an AR15 in 6.8 for your useage and stay away from hunting at anything beyond 300yds with that round. You can shoot and hit out to 500yds accurately with it, it just won't have enough energy to drop game ethically. I have a MA-Ten that I built myself and with the scope I chose, I have it at a tad over 9 lbs. not light by any means, but not too heavy either. I got the lightest handguards I could find, Apex, and an ACS-L stock and a 16" barrel to keep it lighter. With a good sling, I can tote it in the woods with me all day. But this will be my deer stand rifle and my 7.62x39 AR will be the one I use in the bush, or my M38 scout Mosin.

 

[dh1633pm]

Something to consider is the 6.8 and also the 300 BLK in the AR15 platform. I had an AR10 and an AR15 in both 6.8 and 300 BLK. The first step to any choice is getting information. There certainly is a lot around here.

The AR in 300 BLK with a short barrel is a pretty light weight AR. I liked it over the 7.62x39 AR in that the bullet choices are much greater and the mags are shared with the .223 AR. I have loaded as light as 110 grains and as heavy as 168 grains. The 6.8 I have only loaded 110 or 120.

 

[Tirador]

Staying with the AR15 format, the 6.5 Grendal (basically a 7.62x39 necked down to .264 dia.) is in my experience right there or better than the 6.8 for longer range. Mine has a custom 24" barrel which makes it as heavy as an AR 10 though. But I wouldn't trade it!! I load it w/123 gr.amax.

 

[chill1955]

My RRA LAR-8 is 8 lbs empty but...

I bought the LAR with the intention of having an AR platform on a viable hunting round for North American big game. I really wanted an M1A till I picked up a SOCOM and it was way to barrel heavy in balance and weighed 9 lbs empty. As posters have mentioned they are heavier than the average rifle you are probably used to carrying. I stay in good shape so the extra weight doesn't bother me and I have a good sling setup. Conventional wisdom on soft point bullets in AR rifles says don't use them so I use the ballistic tip hunting projectiles. Haven't hunted with it yet but will this fall.
I like the Rock River, the .308 is a proven hunting round, what's not to like?

 

[TacticalGenius]

I get sub MOA from my MA-Ten with 150gr Winchester and Federal SP rounds and a little over MOA with Silver Bear SP too.

 

[dh1633pm]

I get good accuracy out of my DPMS AR10 (Which I sold) with ballistic tips. I also have used 125 Grain Remington PSP in my 300 BLK Upper (which I sold) with no issues.

 

[Rifleman55]

I get good accuracy out of my DPMS AR10 (Which I sold) with ballistic tips. I also have used 125 Grain Remington PSP in my 300 BLK Upper (which I sold) with no issues.

I would think that the 30Rem ar would be a better round than the .300 blackout.
The .300 was designed to be a subsonic round for suppressed weapons for relatively close range.

 

[chill1955]

I'm just sayin.

I have never heard of not using soft points in the AR. That is the only thing I load in .223. I also use 110 SP Pro Hunters in my 6.8 as well as 120 SST from Hornady with the ballistic tips.

It's not my opinion. Conventional wisdom is a colloquialism for accepted best practices that usually come from experts in a given field. In this case it's the AR gurus and I believe it's just a question of durability in the exposed lead point. Then there is your conventional wisdom that says hey, they work fine under my circumstances. I wouldn't get too worried about it.
I have been using tipped projectiles since the Remington bronze tip expanding, that is a game dropper and I have first hand data on that. So the next generation of those are the polymer tipped and I felt they would knock critters over humanely and reliably. I do have some exposed lead soft points for my .300 win mag and they do get deformed from the in and out transition from field to driving home. we are getting off topic so I'll stop now.
Good Hunting!

 

[KingANuthin]

AR15. Ar10s are more costly. Use the money you will save for a Ruger American 30-06 or 308.
Stay light, utilitarian, and defensive with the AR. Hunt the game with the bolt.

 

[chill1955]

I understand the meaning of the term "conventional wisdom". What I am saying is that you are the first person I have ever heard say that about using an exposed lead tip in the AR. I will also say I disagree with it as several others have here as well. the Sierra 110gr SP (Pro Hunter) is a very popular projectile for the 6.8SPC. The only time I have seen the lead tips get deformed very much is when I have dropped them on the concrete floor during reloading. They may deform a little in the magazine but I have never had an issue with accuracy because of it. We are talking hunting rounds here and not match target loads.

I would not consider a 6.8 capable of taking our big game. Also I wrote off sierra and speer years ago for hunting as they both had case separation issues. Maybe for hogs, which I really want to go huntin for some day!
Good Hunting!

 

[chill1955]

That is nothing less than ridiculous. I know people who have taken out caribou with a .22 WMR revolver. It may not be the best round in the world for taking out big game but then neither is the 30 30 or many others that are quite capable. Capable and optimum are too completely different things. If it will take out a 145lb GA doe it will take out a moose if it had to.
Not only that, but no one in this thread has even mentioned the term, "big game" till now an it is obviously just your biased opinion when you completely rule out two of the largest bullet manufacturers in the country because they may or may not have had a problem on a particular run of bullets years ago. Sierra and Speer are two of the most trusted big game bullets in the country (by most people).
A 120gr .277 caliber projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps isn't capable of taking out "big game"... laughable.

The only thing laughable is your lack of hunting experiences and apparent lack of ethics. We have been taking game since the rock and stick but I digress. The .30/.30 was the first "high powered" cartridge and it's a proven game getter by the sheer numbers in the field and given the proper shot (150 yds max), it will take elk and bear cleanly at that distance. That does not make it a goto rifle for all hunting conditions ie ranges beyond 150 yds. Speer and Sierra are great range rounds, we had too many of those come apart on mule deer and elk out of .270's and .30/06's so we wrote those off 25 years ago. "I knew this guy" really? good for you, hardly within ethical hunting boundaries. "Georgia doe", really? it would take a moose "if it had too" really?. The op was asking for feed back on the 7.62x51 for big game. A general list for me when that is said includes Mulies, whitetail, antelope, elk, bear, caribou, moose, bighorns and dahl sheep. The .308 has been there and done that. Me personally, I would not take a 400~500 shot on boo or moose because performance is waning and penetration may not be there. But I like to putem down and limit suffering as any ethical hunter should.
Have a great day, and stick to your Georgia doe's.:wacko:

 

[chill1955]

No, what is laughable is your lack of knowledge about ballistics and the importance of proper shot placement. I never said "I knew a guy" the person I referenced was an uncle of mine who happened to live the last 60 years of his life in Alaska. I lived with him for a while and have taken game from Alaska to Florida so lets not get started on lack of hunting experience.
Don't even get me started on "lack of ethics" another term you obviously know nothing about. I have never lost a game animal in 45 years of hunting due to too small a caliber for the game or lack of proper shot placement. So lets keep the insults to dull roar here, OK?

Again. your statement was That is as I said before, ridiculous. It may not be the best round for every north american game animal but it is certainly capable. The 6.8 is ballistically quite similar to the 30 30 at 150 yards and far exceeds it past that and yet you talk about how great the 30 30 is but say the 6.8 "isn't capable". Once again, speaks volumes about your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Here is the OP's statement, where does he make any reference to "big game".
.
I would agree with your list of animals considered to be big game but that was not the subject here, at least it was never specified by anyone to be. The 6.8 would not be my cartridge of choice to hunt elk, mulies, moose or any other comparable sized game but, if that was all I had and those were the choices of game animals, I guarantee I would not go hungry.

Again, you wrote off two very well thought of bullet companies because of something you said happened 25 years ago. I think they probably fixed the problem long before now.

While your here, why don't you go back and read post #2 as well.

You're a real piece of work there woody. Insulting while saying don't insult. You don't know a thing about me while you busily beat your chest stating basically your opinion is the only one. I'm 58, been reloading since my dad could get me to run the press for him. Hunting since old enough, 14 in Colorado. Hunted the west and Alaska several times. Ballistics, how many bullets have you recovered and weighed to calculate BC? No, I didn't think so Woody. You can hunt with a BB gun for all I care. The only tips I use are Nosler and Barnes for OTC. There are some private makers I buy from but supplies are limited so I'm not sharing. You have reminded me why I primarily hunt with the bow now. It's so I don't have to run into jackasses like you. Tanks for the reminder woody!

 

[chill1955]

You started out by making an absolutely false statement and then get upset when someone calls you on it. I agreed with you that the 6.8 would not be the first choice for larger american game but to say it is not capable is just a flat out lie. So instead of listening to someone else's opinion, you start thumping your chest accusing me of having a lack of hunting experience and poor ethics. You hunted Alaska a few times? I lived there for several years. I have been hunting since I was old enough to carry a bb gun and got my first 22 at age 8. You may be a few years older than me but that sure as hell doesn't make you any smarter or any more experienced. When did I once insult you? I suppose next your going to tell me the .243 that I have killed dozens of Deer with is only big enough for prairie dogs right?
Now, who was it making assumptions again? Like you said, you know nothing about me. I was trying to have a conversation about a particular cartridge, you started hurling the insults about lack of experience and poor hunting ethics. Now you know all about my reloading experience as well? It's all right there in black and white for anyone to see. And just for the record, if you believe recovering a fired round has anything to do with calculating ballistic coefficient then you just proved you don't have a clue. Ballistic Coefficient Calculator GunData.org

You're right, I don't use google to fact check which way the ****ter is. I meant BAC which is a before and after calculation for a percentage of weight retention. Get your google on and see if speer or sierra are in the running for % of weight retention. You may have to do the work yourself if you're actually interested in finding out. Calling someone's opinion laughable about using something you think is adequate for a purpose they do not is insulting and ignorant in your case. You started the flame fest dude over what, durability of a balisitc tip vs an exposed lead point, you were incorrect again. One of the ballistic tips attributes is increased accuracy due to the durability and uniformity of the tip being unchanged while rattling about in the mag. You also said well, in a pinch the 6.8 could be used on anything. He wasn't asking what could be used in a pinch woody. Go look up sectional density which gives the hunter a look at predicted penetration on different bullet diameters and weights. Which is why I took all my rifle elk with a .270 150 gr nosler partition. The last one I took across a park at 350 paces right in the ticker and the impact drove his feet about six inches into the frozen turf. No 115 grain 6.8 is going to that or anything close. He's gonna haul ass on you. And now after taking a life time bighorn in Colo. and one dahl in AK, I shoot for the cervical spine just below the head. I'm getting soft in my old age and I want them to drop.
In reflection I should have never responded to your silly comments.
Later

 

[woodstock]

You know what? Forget it. LIfe is way too short to argue with ignorant people who wouldn't see a point if you were beating them with it.

One of the guys over at the 68 forums asked me to show you this but otherwise I have nothing else to say to you other than have a nice misinformed and opinionated life.

http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?32807-Elk-with-6-8

 

[TacticalGenius]

Hey everyone!
Glad I found this forum! You guys have a wealth of information.

Yeeeaah, ignore the previous umteen posts... Not indicative of the forum, usually. Both have their points though, and there is some experience to be drawn from each of them.

Note: I'm looking at Rock River Arms LAR-15s and LAR-8s (isn't that an AR-10?? If not, what is the difference? So confusing...)

LAR-8 is not an AR10... RRA uses FAL magazines and has a unique bolt release where the front of the trigger guard meets the magwell. Armalite uses either converted M1A mags and newer version mags of their design and now they are taking PMAGs. RRA uppers are compatible with certain lowers, but not with AR10 lowers from my understanding. I don't know which ones they are compatible with.

Long in the short of it. In the .308 AR realm there is Armalite AR-10 and DPMS LR-308 that are the two main platforms. There are others, but most manufactures make parts compatible with one or the other of these platforms, (this is why you see AR10 pattern barrel and DPMS pattern barrels). I chose the DPMS route because it seemed more parts were available for customization and repair if needed. I handled the LAR8, but wasn't sold on it, something about it that I didn't want. Not that it was bad, just not my cup of tea.

If you want to reduce recoil for the 308 AR platform, go with a heavy buffer from "slash" (google it), and use a muzzle brake. I have both on my MA-Ten and it is comparable to my 6.8 with an A2 flash hider, which is to say, very managable, but, very loud if under a roof or cover of any sort. (be sure the barrel protrudes out of the deer stand when shooting). Hope this helps.

 

[faawrenchbndr]

Get the real deal,.....Armalite AR10