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Ive been toying with the idea of picking up a AR pistol when/if things go back to a more normal pricing.
Dont want to go super short with the barrel (7.5), but would probably go around a 10.5 or so.

Not interested in building my own, would rather purchase one complete and also not interested in the "top of the line" models.
What would be a good "mid grade" brand/model to keep a look out for?
 

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No Idea but I had been tossing around the idea of a Draco or maybe an Ar pistol for a "truck gun" :D I live in a city and for awhile after the Trayvon shooting there were a couple race related attacks by groups (60+) member groups of a certain "mistreated/misunderstood" race of people common in these parts. In fact two journalists for the local paper got beat pretty badly after they recieved a brick though the windshield at a stoplight and their way was blocked by the crowd.. I imagine that if he had stepped out of the car with a Draco or other weapon like that that he wouldn't have been beat and neither would have his wife... :D They might have been on their own morning show for a "mass killing" though.. or if he would have just hammered the gas pedal...
 

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No Idea but I had been tossing around the idea of a Draco or maybe an Ar pistol for a "truck gun" :D I live in a city and for awhile after the Trayvon shooting there were a couple race related attacks by groups (60+) member groups of a certain "mistreated/misunderstood" race of people common in these parts. In fact two journalists for the local paper got beat pretty badly after they recieved a brick though the windshield at a stoplight and their way was blocked by the crowd.. I imagine that if he had stepped out of the car with a Draco or other weapon like that that he wouldn't have been beat and neither would have his wife... :D They might have been on their own morning show for a "mass killing" though.. or if he would have just hammered the gas pedal...
Hi usmc0341;

You're the one with the combat experience, so in that kind of situation would it make sense to deploy a couple of smokes, OC, or CS? Or do you figure the hostiles would just have tears in their eyes while they're pounding their victims into road pizza? I've considered a handful of 2oz and 6oz OC cannisters in the bail out kit along with the heavier heat. Maybe a Mossy 500 with baton rounds or stingshot mixed in and then if they can't take a hint to disperse use the heavier stuff like 00 bk? I'd actually want two shotties then, one with an orange stock to designate "less lethal" and a regular one so I wouldn't have to waste time reloading after the first load of batons or stingshot failed.

Sorry, but this is all theory to me, whereas you have "been and done" - I don't have an ethical problem breaking up a crowd bent on fist 'n feet driven homicide with whatever means are required, but would prefer not to be on the nightly news as Zimmerman 2.0 if you catch my drift.

Best,
Grumpy
 

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TO be honest, I do not know the legal ramifications of deploying a Riot Control agent in a situation like that.. Knowing my luck one of the people in the riot trying to beat my ass would have a lethal asthma attack or something. My wife does keep a can of MK9 OC in the door of her truck though as an alternative contigency though.. I will try to break down your post and answer it as best that I can.

I Have been trained in non-lethal weapons in the Marine Corps and it is an integral part of each deploying platoons skillset.
Here is my opinion.
1. CS/OC has a very limited effect especially on crowds bent on doing harm. The effects are further disrupted by weather (rain/wind/ect)
2. They all take time/some fine motor skills to deploy and have effect.
3. When deploying OC it has to hit around their eyes to have effect. Think trying to hit them in the face with a squirt gun.
4. Range is extremely limited
5.less lethal rounds out of a gun are just that LESS LETHAL. They can still kill and have MIN safe distances for employment.
6. If you pull a gun loaded with less lethal rounds and begin pumping them into a crowd it will probably cause one of two outcomes. The crowd disperses to the point that you run out of rounds and then they come back OR they immediately charge to try and overwhelm your 6-7 rounds out of a pump shotgun.
7. NL rounds have to be used out of a pupm action as they do not provide enough recoil inertia to cycle a semi.
8. Less lethal is still considered deadly force. (at least in the Marine Corps)
9. I would NEVER consider employing NLW unless I had a squad of Marines with riot gear and shields as well.
10. Even when we employ NLW we still have all M16 series weapons loaded up with lethal.

A few conditions that warrant deadly force (in the Marines) while conducting a NLW operation would include situations such as a weapon being taken, a Marine being taken, a civillian being killed by the rioters ect.

In the situation that I described in my original post IN MY OPINION would warrant immediate deadly force to save your life. If you are boxed in with nowhere to run I would not want my first response to be less lethal.. I would want it to be immediate and overwhelming deadly force. I would definitely be run through all the court systems and spend quite a bit of time in jail but I would be alive. and so would my wife. It would be a lose /lose situation honestly and you would be judged LONG before you ever get to court.
 

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TO be honest, I do not know the legal ramifications of deploying a Riot Control agent in a situation like that.. Knowing my luck one of the people in the riot trying to beat my ass would have a lethal asthma attack or something. My wife does keep a can of MK9 OC in the door of her truck though as an alternative contigency though.. I will try to break down your post and answer it as best that I can.

I Have been trained in non-lethal weapons in the Marine Corps and it is an integral part of each deploying platoons skillset.
Here is my opinion.
1. CS/OC has a very limited effect especially on crowds bent on doing harm. The effects are further disrupted by weather (rain/wind/ect)
2. They all take time/some fine motor skills to deploy and have effect.
3. When deploying OC it has to hit around their eyes to have effect. Think trying to hit them in the face with a squirt gun.
4. Range is extremely limited
5.less lethal rounds out of a gun are just that LESS LETHAL. They can still kill and have MIN safe distances for employment.
6. If you pull a gun loaded with less lethal rounds and begin pumping them into a crowd it will probably cause one of two outcomes. The crowd disperses to the point that you run out of rounds and then they come back OR they immediately charge to try and overwhelm your 6-7 rounds out of a pump shotgun.
7. NL rounds have to be used out of a pupm action as they do not provide enough recoil inertia to cycle a semi.
8. Less lethal is still considered deadly force. (at least in the Marine Corps)
9. I would NEVER consider employing NLW unless I had a squad of Marines with riot gear and shields as well.
10. Even when we employ NLW we still have all M16 series weapons loaded up with lethal.

A few conditions that warrant deadly force (in the Marines) while conducting a NLW operation would include situations such as a weapon being taken, a Marine being taken, a civillian being killed by the rioters ect.

In the situation that I described in my original post IN MY OPINION would warrant immediate deadly force to save your life. If you are boxed in with nowhere to run I would not want my first response to be less lethal.. I would want it to be immediate and overwhelming deadly force. I would definitely be run through all the court systems and spend quite a bit of time in jail but I would be alive. and so would my wife. It would be a lose /lose situation honestly and you would be judged LONG before you ever get to court.
Thanks for the well thought out and detailed answer. I figured it might be something like that, but wanted your honest opinion.

See, I haven't invested squat in less lethals (thanks for clarifying for anyone else that we are not talking about "non-lethals" here, I didn't make that distinction very clearly - in the civvy world a "less lethal" still counts as a potential use of lethal force and must be answered for in exactly the same way as if you dropped 'em with a .45) but have considered it from time to time, from the standpoint that "no blood = good". The situation you described when writing about the AR pistol is one of the handful where I don't have any really firm contingency planning which is what prompted my post. See if there's a riot my plan is GTFOOD (NOW!) but that means "look nondescript and don't have any plainly visible weapons". Try to keep out of the rioter's attention as a target.

The situation you described where the rioters already have me and my family in their sights as a target is one that I have had on the back of my mind ever since the Rodney King riots in '92.

So, sounds like I'm not going to waste money on the less lethals, since I do not have a squad of Marines to back me up.

Hopefully neither of us will encounter that sort of situation (home with family and all hell breaks loose with your loved ones in the crosshairs) but you never know. For now I'll just carry on and if a crowd of rioters is hell bent on murder will do whatever is necessary to protect my family.

Thanks again for the insights!
Grumpy
 

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YUP No problem grumpy! Glad I could help. TO be honest the situation that I described it the ONLY situation where I would willingly choose one of those cut down rifle/pistols and to be honest an I would Haji tape two mags together (flatter than a drum and will fit under a car seat better) as well as add a red dot and a 1 pt sling. I should be able to take out virtually any threat easily within 50 yds set up like that and be able to do it quickly and relatively precisely and talk about a sustained rate of fire.. you should be able to keep up suppression until the cops show up 40 min later :D. Its just the reliability of those weapons that have me wondering...
 

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hostilenativelibertarian.
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;)I have shot one of those ar pistols-pretty impressive,made by model 1,and quite accurate for its having a 10.5" barrel!It is not much different than the old "car-15"-just does'nt have a shoulder stock!;)
 

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I am not sure what I would buy if I were not going to build, but RRA has a model that I find interesting called the LAR-PDS. It is a piston system and does not use a pistol buffer tube like others, but outside of seeing a few youtube videos I know very little about it.

On the other hand, that buffer tube, although it is not a stock, can be used as a support when firing an AR pistol.
 

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I would put the 1 pt sling on an attachment point on the rear of the weapon and snug the sling down on my body. When employing the weapon simply push it out against the sling until the sling is taut then fire away. The sling works to stabilize the weapon kind of like a buttstock and also allows great weapons retention. I think the Israeli's pioneered this method, at least they were the first ones that I personally saw utilizing it with MP5K's. I have a video of me shooting an MP5K in Pakistan floating around somewhere. The sling made even FA easily controllable.
 

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hostilenativelibertarian.
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I would put the 1 pt sling on an attachment point on the rear of the weapon and snug the sling down on my body. When employing the weapon simply push it out against the sling until the sling is taut then fire away. The sling works to stabilize the weapon kind of like a buttstock and also allows great weapons retention. I think the Israeli's pioneered this method, at least they were the first ones that I personally saw utilizing it with MP5K's. I have a video of me shooting an MP5K in Pakistan floating around somewhere. The sling made even FA easily controllable.
:blink:Did'nt the germans employ that same type of sling use with their schmietzers?I thought that I saw that somewhere before.:unsure:But they had two point slings.
 
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