[JRedHorse]

deleted.

 

[magnomark]

If she thinks that the ar/5.56 is so terrible in the trauma department-I wonder what she would say about "hyper velocity cartridges"-over 4kfps and wound trauma?17 remington, 204 ruger, 220swift, etc.-I'd bet that she would quit medicine after seeing those results!So much for libtard higher education!

 

[grumpy_old_man]

If she thinks that the ar/5.56 is so terrible in the trauma department-I wonder what she would say about "hyper velocity cartridges"-over 4kfps and wound trauma?17 remington, 204 ruger, 220swift, etc.-I'd bet that she would quit medicine after seeing those results!So much for libtard higher education!

Come to think of it, what about a Minie' ball? IIRC the wounds from weapons of the War Between the States were pretty nasty, with a pure lead .58 cal slug splattering on impact. Probably she's only seen .22lr and .380 hardball with an occasional 9x19 hardball tossed in for good measure. Nice clean wound profiles without the damage you get from either a large projectile like a shotgun slug or a smaller high vel rifle slug. What she'd think of a .308 JHP hit on a torso I can only imagine.

One related bit of commie propaganda that has me steaming is the video where the guy walks into work with a musket, fires once, misses then stops to reload while everyone flees. In reality someone bent on mayhem using the technology of the 1700's would open the festivities with a satchel charge and after the "boom" would enter with a brace of pistols and a cutlass or some such. Muskets were line weapons that were only suited for close combat with the bayonet (which of course the actor in the propaganda video doesn't have) and would be loaded with a buck and ball loading for real close in work. Not that anyone making that BS video knows anything about weapons, warfare, or history. Hell, to hear the gun grabbers talking the weapons of yesteryear are about as lethal as nerf guns!

Best,
Grumpy

 

[sharky8js]

I really don't see how a 5.56 could cause more damage than SO MANY OTHER calibers.
The damaged that was caused in that specific instance was due to the point of impact and would not have mattered what caliber was used.

 

[woodstock]

I really don't see how a 5.56 could cause more damage than SO MANY OTHER calibers.
The damaged that was caused in that specific instance was due to the point of impact and would not have mattered what caliber was used.

It really doesn't matter what is or isn't true to a left wing retard. All that is important is what they can lead the ignorant masses to believe. Keep telling a lie long enough and some believe it will come true.

 

[grumpy_old_man]

It really doesn't matter what is or isn't true to a left wing retard. All that is important is what they can lead the ignorant masses to believe. Keep telling a lie long enough and some believe it will come true.

All very true. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to explain that the 5.56 is just a varmint cartridge that was adapted to military use, and that it has often been derided as being marginal compared to earlier cartridges like the .30-06 and .308.

Here's an interesting video on that topic (its an old West Point training video): M-16 Myths & Facts - YouTube

The style of the video may seem primitive by today's commercial standards but the content is A+.

Whole thing gets a little depressing when you figure that the average sheeple will believe a media puke over a gunnie any day.

Best,
Grumpy

 

[BRL]

Let me begin by stating, I do not own an AR-15 or anyother type of AR.
I have nothing against AR type weapons I just prefer the ranch style.

I caught a show on cnbc last night, the title given the show was,
America's gun, rise of the AR-15.
America's Gun: The Rise of the AR-15

Our modern day gun grabbers simply learned from history...and today the technique still works just as well on the ignorant as it did back then...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...lYCQBg&usg=AFQjCNFVOYPo8RA_yzgTPBcJZHk9NqvA0Q

Speaking of ignorant...JRedHorse what is "ranch style"?

 

[woodstock]

Speaking of ignorant...JRedHorse what is "ranch style"?

I think that is some sort of baked beans. :lol::lol::lol:

 

[JRedHorse]

deleted.

 

[magnomark]

I believe that if this (surgeon?) would do her homework from the late historical medical end-that she would find the wounds created by the old m-16A1 shooting the m55 bullets in many cases was worse!Hydrostatic shock on entry at about 3300-3500fps,"wandering"wound channel due to bullet becomeing unstable when hitting object/flesh. I have'nt seen personnally the results of the newer m855,but I think thats the one that breaks in two and spreads shrapnel around-I heard some say it acts like a hollow point (almost)at less than 250 meters. After that range-they say its more like a drill bit!I don't know about these green tip ss109 rounds except that they are supposed to be able to pierce light metal/armor.I do know that they are'nt accurate for zhit!I'll never waste the money on them again!:blink:

 

[BRL]

I refer to the "Ranch style" as your average hunting style rifle...here anything non tactical is refered to as a Ranch Style.
Ruger Mini-14 Rifle - Walmart.com

I kind of supected that was what was meant but wasn't positive.

Thank you for the clarification.

woodstock...oh never mind.

 

[grumpy_old_man]

I believe that if this (surgeon?) would do her homework from the late historical medical end-that she would find the wounds created by the old m-16A1 shooting the m55 bullets in many cases was worse!Hydrostatic shock on entry at about 3300-3500fps,"wandering"wound channel due to bullet becomeing unstable when hitting object/flesh. I have'nt seen personnally the results of the newer m855,but I think thats the one that breaks in two and spreads shrapnel around-I heard some say it acts like a hollow point (almost)at less than 250 meters. After that range-they say its more like a drill bit!I don't know about these green tip ss109 rounds except that they are supposed to be able to pierce light metal/armor.I do know that they are'nt accurate for zhit!I'll never waste the money on them again!:blink:

Hi Magnomark;

I don't have the link handy, but US Navy did some research on the wound effects of 5.56x45 with an eye to reconciling the conflicting data on terminal effects. Upshot was that there is a lack of predictability because the main wounding mechanism was a product of the yaw cycle and the bullet construction, and this all came down to a bunch of unpredictable factors.

Basically sometimes the damn' things are super stable, don't yaw until they've cleared the target, and leave clean little "through and through" wounds. Effective stopping power in that case is similar to a .22LR. I have speculated that this could explain all the multiple hits at Sandy Hook - if the bullets don't yaw, the effects really are pretty minimal, unless you hit bone. The denser media destabilizes the bullet and you get secondary missile effects in that case - very nasty. The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

However, at close ranges where the velocity is high enough and if the yaw cycle initiates early and the bullet jacket is slightly brittle then it flips 90 degrees and fragments at the cannelure. In this case you get devastating trauma at under 2" penetration with a large permanent crush cavity to about 6" penetration - right where the effects are maximum on a man. And of course if it hits bone its pretty nasty anyway.

Unfortunately different lots of bullets have slightly different brittleness of jacket. Worse, the yaw cycle initiation is an effect of the concentricity and alignment of the bullet's axis with the bore. That's an effect of the cartridge manufacturing tolerances and the exact shape of the leade of the bore. IOW you don't know if you'll be launching that ueber projectile that is really wicked, or something that will have all the stopping power of a .22LR. That's where many of the horror stories of "dropped half a mag into 'im and he wouldn't drop" came from IMHO.

M855 has better long range potential than M193 ball if its made right, due to the superior sectional density and ballistic coefficient. Unfortunately due to the composite construction of the slug that is not always the case in practice; misalignment of the steel tip is the problem. Sounds like you got a dud lot where the slugs were out of spec and this will blow the accuracy all to heck. On the bright side their lack of stability is going to improve their chances of performing terminally so its not all bad. And the steel tip was a political sop to NATO - they insisted on the ability to defeat a NATO standard steel pot at 600M and the M193 ball just couldn't pull it off without a little more weight and a hardened tip. It really is just "long range ball" ammo; for true AP performance you need M995, but you'll never find any is my guess. BATFE has it on their hit list of "evil cop killin' ammo", so its not going to be turning up at any gun shows any time soon.

Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep.
Best,
Grumpy

 

[sharky8js]

Just a thought that hit me;
Would a tracer round, seal the wound or cauterize during penetration?

 

[JRedHorse]

deleted.

 

[BRL]

...if you haven't seen this Anti-gun abortion of an attempt to once again demonize the AR, check out the link and weigh in.

...A lot of great stats and info on this subject....I like it!

That was a good post Grumpy.

Sure as hell ain't the "Hammer of Thor" as some would like you to think.

Just more deceiving propaganda aimed at the American public.

 

[grumpy_old_man]

That was a good post Grumpy.

Sure as hell ain't the "Hammer of Thor" as some would like you to think.

Just more deceiving propaganda aimed at the American public.

Thanks BRL;

Here's some more information along those lines. Still can't find the original Navy study, but it was part of a larger joint services thing and the pdf link is to a presentation on that. AOA is "angle of attack" and refers to the angle between the bullet's axis and its path of flight. Essentially the 5.56 is more prone to precessing like a top around its flight path due to the very small diameter and the manufacturing tolerances in both gun and cartridge. A small angle (2-3 degrees) is enough to induce early "upset" (yaw cycle initiation) and produce those freak wounds that doctors who want to ban the 5.56 love to seize on and that those who want to kill the .308 and 6.8 in military service also love to harp about. Problem is that this wounding mechanism is not reliable in a FMJ 5.56, nor does it "work" at longer ranges. .308 and 6.8 do, and its notable that at ranges exceeding 200 yds the .308 US M80 ball loading is actually travelling faster than the 5.56 M193. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
One particularly notable quote from the JSWB-IPT presentation:
"What this means is that two shooters firing the same
lot of M855 from their M4's with identical shot
placement can have dramatically different terminal
performance results: one shooter states that his
M855 is working great and is effective at dropping
bad guys, while the other complains his opponents
are not being incapacitated because M855 is zipping
right through the targets without upsetting. Both
shooters are telling the truth…"

Here's a quote from Dr Martin Fackler on the topic of 5.56x45 M193 ball. Unlike the civilian doctors interviewed by CNBC, Dr Fackler was a US Army Surgeon in VietNam and saw more than his share of wounds from rifle fire.

"In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet's temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery-NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing-in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than "massive", wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet."Fackler, ML: "Literature Review". Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

Unfortunately I don't have online access to either the Wound Ballistics Review or the Journal of Trauma (Dr Fackler wrote in both and produced some of the first work on the 5.45x39 Soviet as well), but I was able to find what I was looking for here: M4 "Loses" Dust-test - Page 12 - M4Carbine.net Forums see post #231. Back when I was in grad school I used to spend some of my down time reading Dr Fackler's articles in the Journal of Trauma. He's the real deal.

That comment about the 5.56x45 often producing wounds indistinguishable from a .22LR when the bullet path is short (as with an extremity hit or in the case of a very lightly built opponent), was from a man who has treated many many bullet wounds over a long career in the military. Ironically, when I made the observation that the 5.56's wounding idiosyncrasies could have been causative of the multiple hits at Sandy Hook (victims were reportedly shot between 3 and 11 times each) our resident commie over in the gun rights forum gave me s*** over it. Not like that bozo knows anything about wound ballistics, but our free socialist worker sure does know how to be a condescending a******....

*ahem*

Anyway, I didn't want to hijack the thread and start another "5.56 sucks vs 5.56 rules" thread, but I just get really irritated when I see some jackass on TV going on about the thing like its "Thor's Hammer" as you so aptly put it. If the gun grabbers ever manage to ban 5.56 rifles from US civilian service it will be a very dark day indeed, since next up will be all other rifles of greater power and lethality. And that's damn' near all of 'em.

The practical upshot of this for all those of us who use the 5.56x45 (I do, and if I thought it was useless I wouldn't have over 6,000 rounds of 'em in my stockpile) is that we have to be very careful with shot placement. Slovenly marksmanship that produces peripheral hits appears unlikely to be effective against an armed and aggressive opponent. But as the Marines have amply demonstrated in the sand box, head shots work just fine. That's one of the places where selection of equipment (good 1-4x designated marksman optic) and doctrine (aim for vital organs in the enemy not just center of mass on the popup targets and train to use 2-3 shots per opponent) comes into play. Or get a .308 and be happy that it will produce better stops reliably, particularly if you feed it with a 150gr JSP loading. By a curious coincidence that is exactly the loading in my M1A right now.....

Best,
Grumpy
PS Here's a link to the Emergency War Surgery book referred to above, albeit a later revision. http://modernsurvivalonline.com/Files/medical/NATO-emergency-war-surgery.pdf The description of wounding mechanisms and profiles starting in Chapter 2 are very illustrative and worth a look.

 

[magnomark]

My personnal take on 223/556 rounds are that if you want to stop something effectively;#1 is shot placement,#2 is an expanding projectile.This conclusion has been formulated by use of this caliber for 40 years and numerous gas,bolt,and single shot firearms in this caliber as well as various barrel lengths form 10" to 24 ".Now that being said-other variables are thick jacket bullets(usually used for larger game) vs. thin jacketed bullets (usually used for thin skinned animal,varmints,and paper.I have had head shot on a deer with the thick jacketed 63 grain sp. bullet that entered the skull exited under the chin,entered the neck-cutting the spine in two and exiting the back of the neck-leaving a .357 to .40 diameter exit wound!Sometimes thick jackets can be too thick!On the other hand I have used the varmint thin jacketed bullets 50 gr sp,and found that they can have devastating or anemic results as well!One shot on a coyote at 350 yds(true)only knocked it down by the bullet expanding on hair making a .50 dia entry hole,it took another thru the spine which kept it down-but not mortal,finally killed by a 357 thru the head at 15 yds!The same bullet 50 gr at 275 yds(true)shot just under jaw and almost cut neck off!Bullets as far as I can see will perform as erratically as some females that i have known!Can be good for several outings and then as unpredictable as a super ball on gravel!I could talk about 30 cal stuff too-but not enough time in this day!:lol:

 

[ridgewalker]

Truth and lies

You guys didn't really expect a lib channel, ie NBC (owner of CNBC) would tell the truth about what they know? Review the lies of Biden and Obama during their very first debates. Libs lie just to survive. If they told the real truth, they would never get into office. This may be the truth about all politicians...they are just better at lying than the rest of us. They can be hypocrites, but no one else can be. See the actors who can use guns and violence, again but the rest of use should not even own them legally.

I have lived in Colorado for over 35 years and seen what all those from California moving here are doing to the state. If things don't change in the 2014 elections to get rid of the "wacko" libs, I'm through paying the taxes here and will be supporting Wyoming or Texas.

Another angry old man? Yep! I saved and invested $.10 out of every dollar I ever made for my retirement. I never splurged on anything; worked 50-60 hrs a week; tried to eat right and stay healthy; raised/helped my kids and grand kids and now great grand kid; tried not to hurt anyone; donate 25+% to charities; and just tried to do the right thing. Now I have to pay all my savings just for medicare, more taxes to support things I don't believe in, people who don't even want to work, politician's ridiculous retirement even if they don't work the 2080 hours a year I did, etc. Another angry old man? Yep!

 

[aBadBoy]

CLSD (aka CNBC)

My advice, watching CLSD or PMSNBC is not worth the brain cells that will die watching their government sponsored drivel. I can't even stand to watch any speech given by the Muslim in Chief for fear that my head might explode. Duct tape, please!!!

 

[YZblue]

I saw that too; did anyone else notice that stats they showed from the Federal gov.,in 2011 8500 murders nation wide, a little over 300 were by rifles (4%) and only some of those were ARs. Funny I didn't see that on the news.