[cajungeo]

I got this interesting web site from PSG1, some of you may find interesting. It certainly raised my eye brows! Here is the results, and you may find the article in its entirety at:

http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html

Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed

 

[Tankcommander]

It makes sense the 223 bullet doesn't have the mass to penetrate and do damge on the other side.

I read in a light infantry manual a few years ago(wanted to learn how grunts think) that in urban combat you do not shoot through doors and walls with the M16 do to its poor penetration. The squad should bring up the M60 machinegun to fire through doors since it's a 7.62x51 and can rip right through.

Those penetration stats would make a good case for using the mini-14 for home defense it has less penetration then a hand gun,
and lowers the risk of collateral damage. Its also fairly short and not to difficult to manuver inside. If all else fails you can use it to buttstroke the bad guy, to bad about the lack of a bayonet lug though.

TC:cannon:

 

[KING]

If you choose to use your mini for home defense consider Varmit bullets in the 60gr wt. made by Hornady. I personally have never had to shoot a crook with one and hope I don't. My family does mean much to me. On the other side of the question the varmit bullets are designed to explode on impact to prevent ricochet's and wounded animals. Good Luck! Beside my mini I use a 357 w/ STHP 145 gr bullets. Can't hurt to have a back up for the wife. No kids in the house and don't want overpenetration towards the neighbours.

 

[Tankcommander]

I do like the 357 I have a S&W 686, the problem would be the penetration through the walls. It is a good back up weapon revolvers don't jam, stove pipe or have feed problems.

The mini might make a good defensive weapon but what would be the legal ramifications using varment ammo on the bad guys.
Where I live we can't use hollow points for self defense you just have to use more jacketed rounds.

It does strike me as odd how our military uses a round with low performance for its assault rifles. Its considered to small for most hunting uses.

The results of the test talk about the rounds breaking up which means more wound channels and perhaps more shock trauma.
The low penetration also means it delievers most of its energy into the victum and doesn't exit the body.

I'm no expert is this a good thing or bad?

sorry starting to wander TC :cannon:

 

[Grinch]

All I know about what the 223 can do is what my neighbor, who is a Vietnam veteran, told me. He said that the viet cong called the M16 "black monsters" because they left exit holes the size of a grape fruit...just what he told me.

 

[tunedcivic]

Well i figure if its good enough for the army then its good enough for me

 

[Tankcommander]

Tunedcivic,
Remember the Army buys stuff from the lowest bidder, and quite often politics comes into play. What congressmans district will get the work etc... Is the officer in charge looking for a cushy job after he retires. I think the M16 was pushed on the Army by Mcnamara like many other boon dogles. They made it work finally.

I am not just talking out of my barracks bag I have 25 years of service. I was a Sheridan crewman when I started and it was one giant piece of S***.

Any how I love my Mini's

TC:cannon:

 

[Satan2655]

Ever watch the movie, I think it was Hamburger Hill and notice how those guys got their asses kicked when the M-16 first came out? Jam after jam. OUCH!

Anyway, I have heard both ends of the spectrum, but as far as I know, the .223 FMJ is intended to wound more than kill - think about it - it takes 2 people to carry away one wounded. Wounding removes 3 enemies (temporarily) from the field, whereas killing removes only 1.

TankCommander, you said

Where I live we can't use hollow points for self defense you just have to use more jacketed rounds.

Wow, I would think the opposite, since HPs will stop far quicker than a FMJ, especially if you're worried about killing innocents (backdrop and neighbors).

 

[cajungeo]

TC I read thru the 11 pages of your states gun laws, and I didn't see any reference to HP ammo. Perhaps it is a local - loco law?http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaw...aws/njersey.pdf

 

[Satan2655]

cajungeo, oops! Look at part (1) below. "hollow nose"

2C:39-3
f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets.
(1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (B) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than.025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and © is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

(excerpt from http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaw...aws/njersey.pdf)

I hate to think that such a stupid law exists, but I guess TankCommander is right. People just don't get it, do they? I call it erosion of our basic rights. What this says, in effect, is that if I am carrying a box of Hornady .44 Jacketed Hollow Point bullets, and even if I have no gun or way of shooting them, I am still guilty of a crime "of the fourth degree". Whatever that is. Subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6 just lists circumstances where it is OK. Otherwise, its illegal. Cross Jersey off my list of possible places to live.

Also curious: subsection w. of N.J.S.2C:39-1 Lists the Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-14/5RF as an "assault firearm", while most people who know assault rifles say that only rifles which are capable of 3-burst or full-auto are actually assault weapons. Psst... They missed the K-Mini-Thirty, but let's not tell them about it.

 

[Tankcommander]

The really stupid thing about Jersey is you can sell hollow points here and buy them, you just can't transport them or use them to defend yourself and loved ones. Thats what you get when liberals and people who are clueless about firearms make your gun laws. Oh but its OK for cops to shoot people with them. I have a few I'm keeping just as collectors items mind you.

I'm stuck here for now kids in school family all here but some day I'll escape. I feel Like those East Germans I used to watch long ago longing to be free.

TC:cannon:

 

[cajungeo]

Thanks for catching my oversight mr moderator, If I couldn't use HP's then I'd use Ballistic tip, which are hollow points with a plastic tip, unless they call them dum, dum? I've heard of Hi-tec "smart bullets" but not dum bullets, but being cajun, maby I is jus dum. dam!

 

[Satan2655]

Yeah, I think 'dum dum' is the term used for such bullets with a ballistic tip.

 

[Dean Speir]

Originally posted by KING:
If you choose to use your mini for home defense consider Varmit bullets in the 60gr wt. made by Hornady.

For many years the 5.56mm tactical round preferred by entry teams, especially on the West Coast, was Federal's 40-grain HP "Varmint" (nee "Blitz") round. One pathologist's report described the wound effect as having done massive damage after entering the torso by doing almost a three-cushion shot through the bad guy's innards. The important thing is that they tend to not exit when there is a good CM shot.

Not for nuthin', but the best 60-grain performer in my Series 182 Mini (1:10") is the Remington HP.

Originally posted by Grinch:

All I know about what the 223 can do is what my neighbor, who is a Vietnam veteran, told me. He said that the viet cong called the M16 "black monsters" because they left exit holes the size of a grape fruit...just what he told me.

In polite circles, this is what is known as an "apocryphal" story, easily identified by the hyperbole. When one applies some basic critical thinking skills, it will be revealed that even flattened to 0.10-inch in a hydraulic press, M193 ball couldn't come near the diameter of a grapefruit.

Originally posted by Satan2655:

Yeah, I think 'dum dum' is the term used for such bullets with a ballistic tip.

No, "dum dum," the name of an arsenal outside Calcutta during the Raj, are actually soft-nosed (lead) rifle rounds originally produced there. (See Military Use of Open-tip Ammo FAQ.) The media, always quick to jump on a word or phrase and bastardize it… (as in "an armed man using an automatic handgun loaded with deadly dum-dum bullets…") has corrupted the term. Politicians, who write the laws and whose very life blood is that media, know a good buzzword when they hear it.

 

[Satan2655]

Originally posted by Dean Speir
The media, always quick to jump on a word or phrase and bastardize it… (as in "an armed man using an automatic handgun loaded with deadly dum-dum bullets…") has corrupted the term. Politicians, who write the laws and whose very life blood is that media, know a good buzzword when they hear it.

Very well put. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[KING]

I wasn't trying to start no argument. Varmint bullets w/ballistic tips can be bought commercially. You don't want to use something that kills your kid in the next room or your neighbor in the house next door. I realize laws vary and you have to adapt, but adapt the best way you can. Don't use FMJ as they may kill your kids in the next room. All you want to do is disable the crook that broke into your home to do you harm, and you felt that your life was in danger. Use common sense! And Mr. Moderator I don't know If the ATF considers V-MAX bullets Dum! Dum! bullets in your state. In mine he doesn't to my knowledge and the Penal Code Book. Just use factory loaded ammo for your defense rounds!