Perfect Union banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone,

Found this board from a reference on the FAL Files. I have owned a GB Model since 1978 and was wondering if a new folder could be installed on my Preban. Also the factory flash hider tends to ring like a tuning fork on occasion when bumped, it must have great harmonics!

Thanks for any input you all might have.

Richard in Flagstaff

:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,786 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
cajungeo,

I purchased the rifle in 1978, in full assault weapon configuration. It had the Ruger factory flash hider, bayonet lub, and detachable 20 rounder installed.

It was (and is) an assault weapon by definition prior to any bans.

Could I purchase an original or afermarket folding stock and install it on my rifle?

I appreciate your earlier response, but was still not clear on whether or not I could put a folding stock on it, as it already is an assault weapon.

What do you think?

Richard in Flagstaff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
I think you could. Like you said, it was an AW from '78. Please note that I am not a lawyer yada yada yada.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,786 Posts
Hey bukaluka. If your mini was configured with a folder before the ban, you can replace your stock with a new folder "legally". If it didn't have a folder you can relace your stock with a new folder "Illegally". As I interpet the law. Don't know if anyone enforces this law or not. As long as it was a preban rifle, and you have a folder on it, it would be hard to prove either way. It is a dumb law, but no one that owns a gun wrote it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
The way I understand the law (I am also not a lawyer) a pre-ban non restricted rifle like a GB is considered an assault rifle because it left Ruger with the FH, bayo lug and detachable mag. It was born an assault rifle with those 3 evil items. Adding a folding stock with pistol grip adds two more evil items, but it does not matter because it was always an assault rifle. Some GB's came out with a factory folder, some with the full stock, but either way, they still had a minimum of 3 evil items which classified them as assault rifles.

That's why a GB command a premium over a standard model. You would have a no questions asked TRUE pre-ban assault rifle.
A simple call to Ruger with serial # will confirm it left as a GB and that would be the end of that question.

A standard model is a different animal because you have to prove those evil items were on the rifle before the ban. Ruger would confirm if it was mfr'd before the ban, but it left as a hunting rifle with no flash hider, bayo lug, folding stock, yada yada so YOU then have to prove you had the evil stuffs on before the ban.

Then, that's how I see it:ar15:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
FALTOTHEBONE, I think TECHNICALLY read carefully TECHNICALLY you are mistaken. I think cajungeo hit it on the head with all his comments,especially the second to the last sentence. That is the position I have allways taken. I've collected mini14 factory folders for a long time,and some interesting things I've heard from several sorces about sending a mini14 back to Ruger for repair. 1-Don't send them a "GB" model,because they will keep it and send you a coupon for a brand new regular mini14, 2-don't send them a factory folding stock,because they will replace it with a regular one.
From what I can gather,they say that these items,(GB models,folding stocks) were never meant for public consumption. I don't know wether any of this is true,but the way Ruger's policies have been in the past,I don't know.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Quadfan: I don't think I am mistaken. A pre-ban GB already has THREE (3) dangers on it when it left the factory prior to the ban:
1. FH
2. bayo lug
3. detachable mag

Being that it's a semi-auto rifle and having these three dangers on it already makes it an assault weapon. Since it's already in an "assault weapon" config, you can have as many danger items as you can stick on it per below.

"Any gun manufactured or built after September 14, 1994 (post-ban) can only have up to 2 of these dangers on it. If your gun has more than that, and they catch you, the penalty is a $10,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison. If you have a gun made before September 14, 1994 (pre-ban), you are able to have as many of the dangers on it as you would like legally. The caveat is that the gun has to have been in an "assault weapon" configuration on or before the ban took place."

Yes it's true that a GB was not meant for the general public, but alot has made it to the public legally. I questioned Ruger when I got mine to see what they would do if I sent it in for repairs and they said that they would repair and return it (not replace it) because it's "my" property. They made it, but I bought it and it's not illegal to have it if it's non-restricted. I never had to send it in because nothing was ever wrong with it, so really can't say what they would really do if did send it in. Unless it's a safety issue, I can't see why they would hold back anyone's property.....but you never know. BTW, I heard those same rumours also, that's why I called to ask.

Everyone has their own understanding of the law and this is simply "my" understanding. And I am not trying to disrespect or step on anyone's toes either. If I did, I apologize.

Interesting site tho:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
See what I mean. How could I get a definite answer on this? Would a letter to the BATF(E) be in order? It seems that I can't be the first one to ask this question.

Digression:

I bought my GB long before the term "assault rifle" was even a buzz word, so I don't know why Ruger would claim they were not intended for the general public.

Supplemental Digression:

Why do you have to send your rifles to Ruger for repair? Will they not supply parts directly to consumers? Their manufacturing plant is over in Prescott, only an hour from my house. I suppose I could deliver it to them in the unlikely event I ever needed repairs. It has functioned flawlessly (100% reliability) since 1978 with Ruger factory magazines and a plethora of ammunition types. But if they won't give it back, what's up with that!

Final Digression:

I'll look in the magazine section also, but can you get Ruger followers, springs, and floorplates to try to help out some of the aftermarket 20's and 30's. I have a couple that want to stand the last round straight up in the mag well during chambering!


Thanks for all the replies. I'm glad I found this Board!
Richard in Flagstaff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
FALTOTHEBONE, hey bud,that's what these forums are here for-to share knowledge AND express opinion. The problem is that the laws are so goofey AND vague,that not even the police can figure them out! I'm not a lawyer OR a cop,but there are ALOT of them out there,and it's for that reason I express my interpetation as best I can figure it. That's the problem with the laws,they must make them that way so nobody can make sense of them.That way they can enforce them as they choose.(Incedently,I've just summed up Nebraska's carry law-long story).I personally do as I please with my guns (within reason,NO full-auto,NOcutting down barrels),and don't sweat a bayonet lug here or a flash suppressor there,what this gun came from the factory with or without. But's that is me,and I do not suggest anyone do anything remotely illeagal.Especially when you don't know who's watching and listening. But I stand by my original post and still think cajungeo's interpetation is as close to the law as I can figure. I've heard many times,especially with AR15's that even if it is a preban receiver,it must come from the factory with a collapsable stock and such or you cannot put one on. I also know that Ruger keeps pretty darn good records,and can tell you if a gun came from the factory with or without a folding stock. But,like he said,I don't think the "stock police" are gonna kick your door down over it. I understand what you are saying about the 3 "strikes",but I think there is more to it,that's all. You just never know when you are going to run into some anal cop who's wife left him for his best friend,and took his dog,and now hates everyone! But I do agree with you that Ruger had better not try to keep my lawfully purchased GB factory folder that I might send them for repair!!! But on the other hand,I'm not sure I'd take the chance,given Ruger's extreme self-regulating stance they have allways had. So I pass on the info so people can take steps to protect themselves. No hard feelings, but I think you should check into it a little deeper(the folding stock deal).And I might even do the same!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
bukaluka,

I would'nt sweat it for several reasons-1.why would anyone care what stock you have? 2.The burdon of proof is on them-"that's the way I bought it" 3.Just about ANYONE you meet will NOT know any different.................

Comprende? BUT whatever you do, DON'T drag the ATF into it,I think you'd be asking for trouble. It's kindof like in the Marines,we try to handle our own problems (among enlisted men)we don't go to officers unless absolutly neccassary. Call me paranoid,but I think the FEDS are best left alone.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,786 Posts
I agree with quadfan on not asking the BATF. As someone pointed out to me once, this could trigger a review, I can just here em say "Hmmmm how did we let this one slip thru, we better so something about the mini's.

As far as Rugers records go they would only have a record as to origional configuration. If a person took of the origional stock, and put a folder on it before the ban, he be legal. I did this to a Ruger 10/22. I took off the wood stock, on my new 1986 ruger 10/22, and put a $19 Ramline folder on it. If I still had it I would be legal, but I could not prove it. I'm am not shure the way the law is written where we are assumed guilty by the BATF untill we can prove our self inocent, would hold up in the surpreme court. To my knowledge the IRS is the only government body, that has that power to point a finger, and say we are guilty, and owe taxes unless we can prove otherwise. I would not want to be the "Test Case".

Both quadfan, and FALTOTHEBONE bring up good points in this grey area, but one thing I learned years ago is to error on the side of caution when it comes to the law if ya wanna stay outa trouble. It works for me. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Quadfan: That's right, that's what these forums are all about. You have your opinion, I have mine. This may be my first couple of post on this forum, but I have been on a few forums for years now. Not to sound like a know-it-all, but I don't need to look any deeper to understand the AWB. Alot of laws are confusing, but IMHO, this one is VERY clear:

If your semi-auto rifle was mfr'd before the ban and you had at least 3 evil items on it, whether from factory or you put it on yourself, it was in an assault weapon config. It does not matter what combination you had, as long as it had 3 evil items on it.
The good thing about the GB is that it's on record from Ruger that it had AT LEAST a (1) FH, (2) bayo lug & (3) detach mag. Some like mine, had 5 evil things on it since it had a factory folder and pistol grip. So if one GB left the factory with a folder (5 evil items) and the one left without a folder (3 evil items), they both would have the same status because both had a least 3 evil items to make both of them in an assault weapons config.

My understanding is that rifle had to have been in an assault weapons config before the ban (which ALL GB's were). It DOES NOT say that it had to have a folder to have a folder now, or have a FH to have a FH now, etc. If it was in an AW config, you can put WHATEVER evil items you want on it. Read it again and maybe you'll see what I mean.

Okay, time to go to the range to heat up the FAL and GB

:ar15:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
FALTOTHEBONE, I found this at AR15.com,at first I thought it made my case.Although,after CAREFUL reading,I'm not so sure. I think maybe it just confused me!

Pre-Ban or Post-Ban: More Than Just A Date
By Corey Sattler ([email protected])

So you want to know if you have a pre-ban or a post-ban receiver. You are not alone! This is one of the most often asked questions I receive each day. Even dealers don't know sometimes, and they sell firearms for a living! For that matter, I have talked to people who asked their local BATF agents what the determining factors are, and the agents were giving incorrect information! So what are the determining factors? Read on my friends...

A few years ago, our government passed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, more commonly known as the 1994 Crime Bill. This law "restricts the manufacture, transfer, and possession of certain 'Semiautomatic Assault Weapons'." (AN OXYMORON IN ITSELF, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT PREACHING TO THE CHOIR.) So what, you say, is a "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon"? The law (Section 921 (a) (30), Title 18 U.S.C.) defines it as so:

# Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as;
* Norinco, Mitchell, Poly Technologies, Avtomat Kalashinikovs.
* Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI, Galil.
* Beretta Ar70 (SC-70).
* Colt AR-15
* Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, FNC.
* SWD M-10, M-11, M-11-9, M-12.
* Steyr AUG.
* Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22.
* Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12.
# Any semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
* a folding or telescoping stock.
* a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
* a bayonet mount.
* a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor.
* a grenade launcher.
# A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
* an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
* a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.
* a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.
* a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.
* a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.
# A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following features:
* a folding or telescoping stock.
* a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
* a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds.
* an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Now we all know that some of the features are already regulated by previous laws (E.G. GRENADE LAUNCHERS - THESE WERE CLASSIFIED AS "DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES" ALREADY), and some of them make no real impact in the "war against crime", but there they are.

Now you know what a Semiautomatic Assault Weapon (SAW) is, but how do you determine what it is you have or what you can legally buy or make? What is "pre-ban?" What it all boils down to is when the GUN was built. Edward M. Owen, Jr., Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch of the BATF, has this to say:
"Semiautomatic pistols and rifles assembled after September 13, 1994, and possessing two or more of the features listed in [Section 921 (a) (30), Title 18 U.S.C.] are semiautomatic assault weapons as defined. The fact that the receiver may have been manufactured prior to September 13, 1994, is immaterial to classification of a weapon as a semiautomatic assault weapon. Additionally, payment or non-payment of excise tax is also immaterial to classification of a firearm as semiautomatic assault weapon."

What he is stating is, as far as pre-ban and post-ban is concerned, the date of manufacture of the receiver has nothing to do with anything. If your SAW was built into a whole SAW, or in a complete kit form, before Sept. 13, 1994 (The Date), you are the lucky owner of a pre-ban receiver. If the gun was built after this date, or if the receiver was without all of the parts to make a SAW as of The Date, then it is post-ban. Let me give you a few examples...

# John Q. Public bought himself an AR-15 receiver in 1988 and put it in his safe. In April 1997, he decided to build it into a rifle. Was it a gun before The Date? No... so he has to build it into a POST-ban firearm.

# Mary Mary Quite Contrary buys an AR-15 lower from her dealer who purchased it 7 years ago, built it into a SAW 2 weeks later, and in January '96 tore it apart to sell as components. Did she buy a pre-ban receiver? Yes... it was a SAW before The Date.

# Big Bob Bopper finds a respectable dealer at a gun show who is selling "pre-ban AR pistol lowers." The dealer says he bought them before "the Ban" and registered them as pistol lowers, but never built them into anything. Are they pre-ban? No. Are they pistol lowers? Sure...just post-ban pistol lowers. As long as they don't have two or more "Deadly Features" when they are built, they are legal.

# Fred Foosball buys a complete semiautomatic assault rifle kit in August 1994, but doesn't assemble it until September 14th, 1994. Is it a legal pre-ban rifle. Yes... it had all (and I mean ALL) of the pieces to make a complete SAW before the ban. BATF accepts this as a complete pre-ban rifle.

# Josh the Impaler purchases a Remington 1100 on July 4, 1994 in order to celebrate Independence Day. A year later, he decides that he would like a pistol grip and folding stock added to make it a better home defense gun. Is this legal? No. The shotgun was complete before The Date, but it was not a SAW before the date, and therefore cannot be modified to a SAW after The Date.

All of this makes for some VERY gray areas. But we all must stay within the law as best as we know how. The basic rule of thumb to use is, if you are planning to buy a pre-ban gun or receiver, make sure that the person selling it to you can prove that it was built as a SAW (or in a complete kit form) before The Date. If he or she can't do this, don't buy it!!!!

Many people also believe that a serial number can tell you whether or not a receiver is pre- or post-ban. This is not always the case. For example, if a manufacturer's books show a serial number as being manufactured on August 23, 1994, and also lists that serial number being shipped on September 3, 1994, is this a pre-ban receiver? Well, that information alone will not tell you. If the books only show when a serial number was made and left, we still don't know how it was shipped. Was it a rifle? or a receiver only? did the dealer who purchased it build it into a SAW before The Date? These are all questions that are unanswerable with the provided information, so don't go on these facts alone!

I trust that the foregoing has been responsive to any misconceptions you as the reader may have about pre-ban and post-ban receivers/guns/regulations. Please pass this information on to your friends, neighbors, local gunshops, etc. The more knowledge we all possess, the better off our sport (and sportsmen) will be. Until then, play nice and shoot straight!

About the author: Mr. Sattler is the Law Enforcement Sales Manager and Archival Records Manager at Olympic Arms, Inc. in Olympia, WA and has been with the company since 1993. He is also a Reserve Deputy in a small Southwest Washington county Sheriff's Office.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
HI Quadfan,

Interesting article. It is a clear representation of what the law is and even more solidifies my stance. The key to the GB is that, once again, it left Ruger as a complete rifle in a SAW form with or without a folding stock because all the GB's are semi-auto and has the ability to accept a detachable mag and left Ruger with 1) Flash suppressor and 2) Bayo mount. These evil thingies are what makes a GB a SAW as per below:

# Any semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following features:
* a folding or telescoping stock.
* a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
* a bayonet mount.
* a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor.
* a grenade launcher.

This cannot be any more clearer to understand that a GB can have whatever evil things listed above because it was born a SAW. A standard mini 14 did not leave Ruger with any of the above and unless the owner can prove that he installed at least 2 evils on it before 9/14/94, a standard mini 14 IS NOT a SAW. That's why a non-restricted pre-ban GB will fetch 2 or 3 times what a standard mini 14 will cost, regardless if standard mini was made before 9/14/94, because unless you can prove it was in a SAW config, it's not a SAW. Hope this un-confuses you.

FTTB



:ar15:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Wow, I didn't realize that my first post would generate so much interest!

Quadfan, great information you posted from the AR15.com board. There is no question that my GB was and is a Pre-Ban fully legal assault weapon. I did install and remove a friends folding stock back in the late 70's just to see how it would work on my rifle. I guess that means that my rifle was previously configured with a folding stock/pistol grip, in addition to the flash hider, bayo lug, detachable mag before the ban. I should have taken a picture!

It appears to me, from the informative responses above, that once and assault weapon, always an assault weapon. You should be able to mix and match as many evil features as you would like on your rifle.

Thanks for all the input.

Richard in Flagstaff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Bukaluka, there ya go!! I found myself repeating the same thing over and over. Glad you caught on. Just to clarify a bit. It did not matter if you had a folding stock on it because your GB was already a SAW with a FH and BL. Oops, I repeated myself again.
Argh!!!:confused:

BTW, I sold my last mini this weekend to get more FALs. The minis were fun and a blast, but I got myself hooked on STG58's.
You guys have a nice week now!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Well, glad we cleared up the old assault weapon thing.

RE Ruger and rifle service they have improved a lot over the last few years. My rifle is an AC-556. They really hate the fact that those got into public hands, but they do support them. I read a guy post that they replaced one that was damaged beyond repair. We are talking about a $3000 plus rifle. They had a spare transferable AC-556 in the warehouse. I am thinking about sending mine to them for a general tune-up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
OWW! mt head hurts! All this extra knowledge is causing pressure on my allready overflowing brain. You know what will be nice though? 2004 when we won't have to worry about this stupidity any more(AWB sunset).

Paul556, being a factory folder mini14 fan,I've lusted after one of those AC556F w/ the 13" barrel for as long as I can remember. My 1982 Ruger Law Enforcement Products Guide has them for $438 for blue and $509 for stainless! Those were the days! A class 3 dealer from the area always seems to have 1 or 2 sitting on his tables,he even has laminated stocks (folding) specially made for his customers.They really look great,and he says they are alot stronger. Maybe someday!!
 

Attachments

1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top