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Old 07-08-2009, 18:06   #26
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Originally Posted by Boonies View Post
Those are Double Taps numbers I got the 9mm and 357 stats from his site so that they would both represent the most powerful ammo you could find for both loads.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...d60b827a9e11a1
Years ago CCI used to catalog a 1900 fps. load but nobody ever saw it. Don't mess with wheelguns anymore but used to have several 357s and 1450 seems a little more real life to me. 1300 is about perfect for a cranked up 9 tho.
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Old 07-09-2009, 04:14   #27
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Originally Posted by p35bhp55 View Post
Years ago CCI used to catalog a 1900 fps. load but nobody ever saw it. Don't mess with wheelguns anymore but used to have several 357s and 1450 seems a little more real life to me. 1300 is about perfect for a cranked up 9 tho.
ive played with several different JHP's in the 357 mag handloads shooting at water jugs full of water. with 125 grain hollow points velocities over 1200 fps the bullets would peel jackets or fragment. I don't necessarily know if a fragmented bullet would help with stopping power of a round or not?
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:52   #28
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A lot of people seem to think that the fragmentation of the remington SJHP .357 is one of the reasons it was so effective, as long as you still get good penetration fragmenting is good. Fragmenting is the name of the game with rifles when you are trying to take out humans or varmints not so much with game as you don't want to be eating little bits of lead and copper.
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Old 07-10-2009, 15:42   #29
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Originally Posted by Boonies View Post
HAHAHAHA what orifice did you pull that claim out of? A 124gr. 9mm+P will do about 1300 FPS from a 4 inch barrel, a 124gr. .357 out of a 4 inch barrel will do about 1600FPS, not even close in energy levels.
I resent your inference there 'Boonies'. a more civil and intelligent reply would be 'could your post your reference for this' which is what I will do here, it's the 2005 Guns & Ammo Annual Buyers Guide. admittedly 4 years past but I have seen similar info in other publications of tests of factory ammo and handload data rounds.
pg 131 .357 mag ammo listings from the factory state the below:
.357 mag 125gr JHP Rem. from 4" bbl mzl Vel is 1220
" " 130gr " Fiocchi " " " " " " 1300

listed .357 mag Cowboy loads with lead slugs show velos at 850 and 800 fps with 125gr and 140 gr respectively

pgs 132 & 133 list the following vels for the 9mm and a few +P loadings
123gr FMJ Rem 4" bbl - 1250
123gr FMJ Lapua from a 5.25" bbl - 1312 (I'm just throwing this one in)
124gr JHP+P Black Hills from 4" bbl - 1250
125gr JHP CorBon from 5" bbl - 1250

several other 123gr JHP and FMJ loads from differing manufacturers are pushing 1200 fps in 123 (FMJ & JHP) , 124 (JHP's) and 130 (FMJ) grs
the hot Speer Gold Dot +P 124 gr loading (hottest factory +P load I've seen at a reported 1320 fps altho there are +P+ loads) popular with 'SWAT' TEAMS WAS NOT LISTED.

should add that this publication listed data for factory produced handgun, rifle and rimfire cartridges by several manufacturers USA and foreign and that several makers listed .357 125gr jacketed slug vels pushing or at 1500 fps from a 4" bbl.

at any rate I don't wish to get hit with either round.

Last edited by Marlin 45 carbine; 07-11-2009 at 06:08. Reason: clarify post
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Old 07-10-2009, 18:46   #30
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I'd rather be shooting 8 rounds of this:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...d60b827a9e11a1

or this:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...d60b827a9e11a1

or this:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...d60b827a9e11a1

from my 1911.

Jim
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Old 07-10-2009, 18:54   #31
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some stout loadings for sure. also listed was a +P 9mm 124gr JHP at 1320 fps. that's about what my handloads for my 5906 would push a Rem Golden Sabre JHP useing Power Pistol.
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Old 07-10-2009, 23:58   #32
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Well just because you can find .357 loads that are loaded down to those velocities does not mean that 9mm+P and .357 mag have the same potential. Just about all the factory 10mm ammo is not loaded to its potential so it ends up being closer to .40S&W that doesn't mean that .40S&W is as powerfull as 10mm. Sorry if my previous post offended you.
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Old 07-11-2009, 00:20   #33
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The FBI tried the 38 spl, went to the 357 mag, I think they tried the 9mm, tried the 10mm, then developed the 40 s&w, and finally went back to the 1911 in 45 acp. What does that tell you? That the 1911 in 45 acp works. It worked in 1911 and works even better today with the great new ammo that's been developed. The Federal 230gr. Hydro-Shock probably the best of the lot. All calibers will kill, but the object is to stop the attacker. If you fire a fatal shot into an attacker and they kill or injure you before they die, it doesn't help you much. Under the stress of an attack you may be lucky to even hit the attacker, let alone get a centered shot. The 45 acp will stop an attack with a peripheral hit better then any other caliber. The 45 acp will stop most attackers with one shot, it may not be fatal, but it saved you. Use what is proven to work. The FBI is using the 1911-45 acp because it works. The US special forces use the 45 not 9's or 40's, and the military is talking about switch back to the 1911- 45 acp. I was talking to a prison guard recently and he was packing a concealed 1911-45 acp for protection. He said in the prison where he worked, he has seen quite a few inmates that had survived being shot with 9mm and a few survived the 40 s&w. There were no inmates that had been shot with a 45 because none had survived. Not a hard choice for him to decide what to carry. I sometimes carry a small 9mm in the hot summer weather when I'm not going far from home and I have a Para P16 40 that I like to have fun with. I mostly carry a full sized 1911 in 45 acp. My wife carries an Officers Model in 45 acp. I also have 3 more full size 1911's in 45 acp in strategic spots in my house. So when you ask which is better a 9 or a 40, I'll tell you it's a 45 acp.

Last edited by JoeKool; 07-11-2009 at 00:30.
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Old 07-12-2009, 01:07   #34
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Originally Posted by Marlin 45 carbine View Post
some stout loadings for sure. also listed was a +P 9mm 124gr JHP at 1320 fps. that's about what my handloads for my 5906 would push a Rem Golden Sabre JHP useing Power Pistol.

you should try Win 296, from my 4" barrel GP100 im getting an average velocity of 1506 fps with a 6 fps spread with 125 grain JHP montana gold bullets.
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Old 07-12-2009, 09:24   #35
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thanks for the tip wolf but you're shooting a built-hell-for-stout revolver, that load would very likely batter even a heavy built (and for +P loads too) S&W 5906.
just judgeing by damage done to wet stacked cardboard the 9mm+P Golden Sabre load would sure put a hurtin' on a BG with anything near a COM hit. and penetrate too.
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Old 07-12-2009, 10:53   #36
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Originally Posted by K1LLROI View Post
Advantages of .40= more power, probably outgunning the criminals small calibers. One shot drop.


Disadvantages of 9= more than one shot to drop, one of the most common calibers today(hard to find).
A 1 shot drop? where did you get that from? sorry, Oprah lied to you about what you seem to be trying to pass as fact..

FACT.. more Cops and deer have been killed by the lowly .22 than the next 4 most popular calibers combined (as per DOJ and WS), caliber only matters when you miss your point of aim, and/or you need deeper penitration, sectional denisity and all that is nice, but when it gets right down to it, it dont mean much when a .22 to the heart or brain, brain stem, or upper spinal column (above the clavicles) will drop ANYONE on this planet, and as well any other caliber handgun.. while a gut shot, or a through and though/out, anything not disrupting blood pathways will all be about equal.. your target will be wounded, and more than likey still shooting back..

Very few gun shot victims are killed with a one shot drop, most, if they die, die from bleeding out, so unless its a femoral, or other such artery, (and even then it can take a couple of minutes depending on how and where the artery is hemorrhaging) it takes time..

Unless a hit it made to the a fore mentioned areas, there is not such thing as a one shot drop... please learn what it is you are trying to pass off as fact, as stupid "facts", much like the people who pass them along, tend to get people killed.

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Old 07-12-2009, 16:22   #37
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The FBI tried the 38 spl, went to the 357 mag, I think they tried the 9mm, tried the 10mm, then developed the 40 s&w, and finally went back to the 1911 in 45 acp.
IIRC, only their SWAT/HRT folks use 1911's, and only as a back-up to their MP5's. The general issue is Glock's in .40SW.

IMHO, the FBI is the most schizophrenic of all agencies in their weapons and caliber choices (as your post reveals). As a result, I give next to no weight to their choices.

I don't direspect the general numbers being bandied about, but to me what made most sense was looking at mushromed HP's in both calibers, side by side. Yes, 40 is better, but by such a small margin it wouldn't affect my choice of carry.
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Old 07-12-2009, 20:27   #38
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I'm a member of 9 different firearms related boards. All of them have this same argument. However, one guy on another board actually tried out different loads in a real world test. He lives in a rural area, and they get a LOT of feral dogs, especially big ones. He's had to put down a lot of dogs, so he tested various ammo on them. Of the animals he's shot, he noticed that the faster the bullet is driven, the more likely it is to expand. That's why the 125 gr .357 Mag load does so well. It's going so fast, it expands well. The only problem is it's a revolver round, so you only have 6 rounds, have to use a speed loader (if you have one), and the recoil is pretty stout. And for the 9mm, you have to use +P+ to get decent speed, and you'll beat the crap out of your gun, as most 9mms are not designe for this kind of abuse. And if you want a high powered .40 S&W, get a 10mm. Guns designed for the 10mm are designed to take the abuse. Just upgrade the springs on most of them, and you'll shoot factory 10mm 175gr Silvertips to your hearts content.

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Old 07-13-2009, 03:49   #39
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I've had to take out dogs with a 9, loaded with Corbon 115s. Do not recommend it. 4 or 5 rounds each and that is putting 1 in the head when they slow down.
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Old 07-13-2009, 08:05   #40
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useing a state F&G issued 'damaging deer' permit I don't know at the whitetails I've taken with 1 well placed .22LR sub-sonic 40 gr round from my AMT heavy bbl rifle.this ain't taking into account the ones I've taken with a in-season hunting license.
I have the Marlin Camp 9 & .45acp both I've taken deer with just to fill my doe tags. one shot DRT. neck/head shots both.
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:09   #41
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My confidence in 9mm or .40 s&w was maintained in this interview. I have invigorated interest in .357, but no extra $$ so i'll stick to what i've got for now.

http://proarms.podbean.com/2009/07/0...h-keith-jones/
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Old 07-14-2009, 20:08   #42
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Originally Posted by collegeb View Post
My confidence in 9mm or .40 s&w was maintained in this interview. I have invigorated interest in .357, but no extra $$ so i'll stick to what i've got for now.

http://proarms.podbean.com/2009/07/0...h-keith-jones/


after listening to the interview and its emphasis on the 357 magnum it has me thinking maybe a 357 sig or a 38 super would be a more viable option for an auto pistol over the 9 or 40.
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Old 07-14-2009, 20:51   #43
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Originally Posted by HighDesertWolf View Post
after listening to the interview and its emphasis on the 357 magnum it has me thinking maybe a 357 sig or a 38 super would be a more viable option for an auto pistol over the 9 or 40.
You could get a 40 and than get a 357 sig barrel for it that way you could shoot the cheaper 40 and still have a 357 sig.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:43   #44
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Originally Posted by BobSmith View Post
You could get a 40 and than get a 357 sig barrel for it that way you could shoot the cheaper 40 and still have a 357 sig.

thats a great idea! I think glock barrels are running about 120 bucks.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:19   #45
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Originally Posted by BobSmith View Post
You could get a 40 and than get a 357 sig barrel for it that way you could shoot the cheaper 40 and still have a 357 sig.
Curious if you can get these for the Springfield XD and XD(M) handguns
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:28   #46
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I suppose a stout built semi-auto chambered in 9mm Para could be built to handle the +P+ loads which are well into .357 mag levels but at the cost of increased muzzle flash, flip and blast that could hinder controlability. some of the IPSC shooters load that data and have to use rifle primers to set the powder off - this is to get well into MPF.
myself I think a 9mm Win Mag would likely be a better option but they are pricey.
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Old 07-15-2009, 14:17   #47
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Originally Posted by Mad Dog View Post
Curious if you can get these for the Springfield XD and XD(M) handguns
XD's were available in .357 Sig, and may still be, though I haven't seen one in a long while. The XD(M)'s are only in 9x19 and .40 S&W right now.

I'm not so sure the .357 Sig is any better than the .40 S&W, especially for the cost. It has higher velocity, but smaller projectile. Since Force = Mass X Acceleration, it evens out almost exactly on some of the charts I've read.
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Old 07-15-2009, 16:47   #48
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Originally Posted by HighDesertWolf View Post
thats a great idea! I think glock barrels are running about 120 bucks.
Yes they are
http://www.glockworld.com/item/43150...arrel_357.aspx
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Old 07-15-2009, 16:52   #49
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Originally Posted by Mad Dog View Post
Curious if you can get these for the Springfield XD and XD(M) handguns
Here you go
http://www.efkfiredragon.com/products.php?cat=37
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Old 07-15-2009, 21:38   #50
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Originally Posted by Marlin 45 carbine View Post
I suppose a stout built semi-auto chambered in 9mm Para could be built to handle the +P+ loads which are well into .357 mag levels but at the cost of increased muzzle flash, flip and blast that could hinder controlability. some of the IPSC shooters load that data and have to use rifle primers to set the powder off - this is to get well into MPF.
myself I think a 9mm Win Mag would likely be a better option but they are pricey.
The only 9mm +P+ ballistics I could find was still in the 1300's which still isn't that close to .357 mag, I read that it is close to .357 sig maybe thats what your thinking of?
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