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Erratic ejection and extraction= Looking for input

10K views 90 replies 17 participants last post by  jws360 
#1 ·
Got a new Mini 14 stainless ranch rifle. Finally ran some ammo to run through it and noticed some odd issues which happened with 3 different brands of factory brass ammo. Despite a search I am not sure this has been covered-or at least I don't see it!

Using only factory mags I had 3-4 failures to fully extract. The spend casing was maybe 3/4-7/8 of the way out & then appeared to hang up. Racking the bolt the rest of the way back & letting it slam forward solved the issue.

Also, ejection was all over the place. Most rounds went at a roughly 2-4 o'clock position, which a few others went to 12 and some almost dribbled out by my feet.

I'm at a bit of a loss. Any thoughts or ideas?

Thanks!
 
#50 ·
The reason I asked is that I wonder if the bolt is going all the way to the rear when you get the jam pictured above. If the bolt is not going back far enough then I can see the issue you are having. It seems as if the extractor is still gripping the case in the pics...is that so? If so then perhaps the op rod was binding?? Loading one round and firing and looking for the bolt to lock back 100% of the time will help diagnose this short stroke.

If you are getting erratic ejection it could be related to a short stroke issue....or the extractor could be letting go of the case causing same. From your pic it seems the extractor is holding the case.

I've seen several threads about this issue on the new Rugers there must be a common cause.
 
#51 ·
Hmmm...you may be right!

The reason I asked is that I wonder if the bolt is going all the way to the rear when you get the jam pictured above. If the bolt is not going back far enough then I can see the issue you are having. It seems as if the extractor is still gripping the case in the pics...is that so? If so then perhaps the op rod was binding?? Loading one round and firing and looking for the bolt to lock back 100% of the time will help diagnose this short stroke.

If you are getting erratic ejection it could be related to a short stroke issue....or the extractor could be letting go of the case causing same. From your pic it seems the extractor is holding the case.

I've seen several threads about this issue on the new Rugers there must be a common cause.
Ya know, you may be right. It did appear to be a short stroking issue as the unfired case would wedge as shown. A fresh round never started to load. I had not thought of the single round test. Great idea. I thought you were referring to a mag issue, but now see your point.

Since they replaced the op rod, bolt stop AND extractor I have to wonder. Didn't realize this was a common issue. I wonder why.
 
#52 ·
I run Shuester Adjustable Gas plugs in my Garands. When adjusting the gas piston volume the point is reached where some empty brass remains in the receiver. To finish the adjustment the gas port is opened in very small increments until the cases eject.
You may have a fouled gas port or piston.
 
#54 ·
I suppose the port could be plugged but I don't kow how you would check that easily. With ar15 sometimes **** like a blown primer can get wedged in the gas tube or key....but with a mini I can't see crap gettin into the gas port unless it came from ruger with crap in it.
 
#60 ·
The DI system is not a compression piston operated firearm. The DI and the short piston actuators are very different. The gas trap on the M-16 AR-15 rifles is not a compression devise. The AK-47 utilizes a short stroke compression piston.
I will post a link to help you understand the different type of modern military firearms.

AR Operating Systems: Gas Impingement vs. Piston - American Rifleman
 
#61 ·
Technically true



This is very much technically true. But, many (me included) as a practical matter label the traditional AR as a direct impingement since it introduces gas directly into the bolt carrier group, which to me is the last place I want hot, dirty gases.

I've put 200 through an LWRC only to find a clean bolt, clean carrier, still clear oil (I use Slip 2000) and all but zero particulate matter in the trigger group. On the down side, it is a bit front heavy, but the vastly superior cleanliness & easy of maintenance and concurrent reliability is worth it.

Great link, BTW. Thanks!
 
#62 ·
Well dog gone that is why the Lord gave us Beautiful Ladies. Some Blonds some Redheads and Ravin beauties. We are can choose what ever we like. My information was not provided to question your choice.
It is interesting concerning the popular military weapons of the day. The Communist Bloc Nations chose the short stroke piston America chose the DI. I run both types. In my feeble mind they both work for me. It seems you have found that a piston operates better dirty than a DI. Thanks for your information regarding this problem. Nice post.
 
#63 ·
I had the same problem with my 5847 tactical. Brand new gun same problem as yours. This is the 1st new Mini I have bought myself in years, and never had a problem with my other 196. Cleaned the gun 1st and broke it in on good brass , started doing the same thing , got 150 rnds thru it . I have always worked on my own guns but this time I said screw it and called Ruger. Sent the gun off and got it back 2 weeks later. They replaced the complete Bolt and said they adjusted the op rod. It shoots fine now. They did not tell me what the problem was.
 
#65 ·
True



True. Adding chrome lining and actual cleaning kits also helped.

Supposedly, and this is purely from the internet, but elite forces like Delta & the Seals supposedly use HK416s--piston guns.

From a purely personal standpoint I like the ease of cleaning a piston AR over DI. Still, a DI carbine can weight next to nothing.
 
#66 ·
Yes, I still have the instruction sheet for the Colts back then. {Now why would you keep that for 50 years?}. It says when using the rifle in equatorial or tropic conditions clean once a year. When using under Arctic conditions it never needed cleaning.
And yes this was reinforced by not shipping cleaning rods with the rifles. Any way chrome chambers were added and cleaning kits. But!! If you were using a Mdl. 70 Winchester HB U.S. Government .30-06 scoped with a Redfield Range Finder scope you had problems. The plastic range finder scales warped in a few days of tropical heat. Those were learning times in more than one way.
 
#67 ·
Tested today at range.

Tested today at the range.

Seemed to work well. One failure to feed with Black Hills ammo, but otherwise good. Brass ejection was noticeably more uniform than before, but not identical as other rifles I've had.

Used both the factory synthetic stock and a Ruger branded Hogue one. While I found the Hogue more comfortable, even after Ruger worked on it most factory 10 round mags won't unseat and the Point of Impact was noticeably off. Required much more windage adjustment.

All in all, better--but I'm staying with the factory hard stock. I'll take reliable mag feeding & better operation than look & feel.
 
#69 ·
Failure to feed



This was a new one. Unlike past issues, there was extraction, but the fresh round did not chamber. Almost like the slide locked back. The past issues all involved failure of the case to fully extract & "wedging" up against the upper part of the receiver. A slight tug and all was well. 70-90 rounds worked.

The Black Hills was new 55g .223 in a red box. All seemed well with the Federal 55g Walmart special. I've yet to try any 62g 5.56.
 
#75 ·
I had an issue like this also. Rifle went back to Ruger 2 times. Still did it.

Today I removed the gas block and found that there was gas escaping on both sides of the jet/bushing, instead of just going through it and out the piston 'thingy'. The hole that the jet fit into is slightly oval, with the oval parts on the sides of the jet, with a black 'plume' of gases escaping up the two side.

I am guessing that this contributes to my erratic ejection. Sometimes the shells flew 30-40 feet, and sometimes they stovepiped/jammed in the action.

I am guessing that erratic ratios of gas going through that jet and gas block affects how fast/hard the operating rod is shoved back to push/pull the bolt far enough to the rear to strike the ejector.

I wanted an adjustable gas block, so this became an excuse to buy one and test my theory. After all: it seems everything else has been changed!
 
#83 ·
I tend to avoid adjustable anything in a potentially defensive firearm.

The more things to adjust, the more that can go wrong and usually does--just when you least want it to happen.
I hear you, and usually would not have. Keep it stock and keep it simple, when you need to depend on it. But... when I read a lot of accounts of Ruger's QC on parts being hit or miss, and the replacement part comes from a company known for very good QC, I rolled the dice and figured I'm replacing a mass produced part with a higher quality alternative, and odds are it would be an improvement. It was a gamble, and I did add complexity to a system that was already not functioning properly, so in hindsight it was the wrong approach.

I'm not a hand loader, so I never intended to be changing/adjusting it frequently to match custom loads. My hope was to find the sweet spot with the ammo I own in bulk, and then Loctite the heck out of it. Haven't found the sweet spot yet, so it remains somewhat of a liability.
 
#84 ·
Well: no solutions yet for me.

On the third trip to Ruger they decided to change the entire gun out to a new one.

Good news is that there were some bolt manufacturing issues that are now resolved [pivot hole for extractor was egg-shaped before, and the ejector 'slot' cut in the side of the bolt was mis-aligned, causing the cut to go into the firing pin channel at the rear with a small window-look.].

My operating theory was that the bolt had an irregularity that was 'catching' on the ejector on either the recoil or load stroke. I cleaned/polished up the channel as well as I could. I can't see any signs of ejector rubbing the bolt any longer. I used Dykum blue also to look for wear.

However, the problem was still there.

I have tried to really carefully observe the bolt action as the bolt moves through its range. I still think I know the final issue, but I don't know exactly what is causing this issue yet. I plan to work on it over the holidays.

My operating theory is that the bolt is still 'moving' a little too far to the right for a solid 'whack' on the ejector. This is happening sporadically.

As I pull the op rod back slowly, I can see the bolt 'jump' a bit to the right [looking top down, muzzle away] at a certain point.

I had believed it was a point that matched the ejector tab striking some bump/edge in the ejector slot of the bolt. This would have explained it, but it doesn't appear to be occurring as I had thought it was.

So, I need to examine the design to see if there is some part of the bolt that is striking some part of the receiver a little 'off' a that same point to the rear.

The other possibility is the bottom of the bolt impacting the hammer assembly to compress it in such a way that the bolt 'twitches' to the right.

The bolt does this about 1" before the bolt face passes behind the ejector. It is a sideways movement that probably is about .15" or so to the right [at max], but which could cause the ejector to not strike the shell on the extraction cycle.

It isn't consistent. It would aid in explaining the erratic ejection patterns as well as the jams.

I will take advantage of this holiday to spend some serious time analyzing the motions, and comparing them to my Garand bolt motions. My Garand doesn't seem to have this sideways 'twitch', which makes me hope this is the problem.

More info as I obtain it. Hopefully a solution will come soon too.
 
#85 · (Edited)
My operating theory is that the bolt is still 'moving' a little too far to the right for a solid 'whack' on the ejector. This is happening sporadically.
I've said this elsewhere, but I'll restate it here in case it adds something in this context. I've had the same issues: random FTE and varying distances spent shells are ejected. When I greased the bolt with what I considered to be a ridiculously large amount of grease, I had no FTE's, but the shells still ejected erratically. It's possible that floating the bolt in large amounts of grease tamed the improper bolt movement you are describing, enough that even at its weakest point it was not so weak as to jam.

With the bolt heavily greased, I went 100 rounds without an FTE (all the shooting I did that trip to the range). I cut back on the grease for the next trip to the range, and 35 rounds in had one FTE. All I had with me was a small bottle of Hoppe's #9, so I dribbled that all over the bolt, and got out another 25 rounds without an issue. Somewhat anecdotal, but does imply an issue with bolt movement during cycling is causing the FTE's.

I've got no formal training in this area, so I'm just reporting on what I observe.

Update: See the 12-23-14 post on this thread -- upon further inspection my issues may be located where the slide assembly meets the gas pipe...
 
#90 ·
I found that the trigger group was able to move side-to-side in the plastic stock, but just barely.

I used some plastic epoxy on the stock to 'fill' the sides, then filed/sanded them down for a tighter trigger group fit.

Trigger group now fits VERY snug, with no motion.

Sad part: still one or two failures to eject out of 80 rounds last trip.

I 'feel' I am on to something with this whole bolt/hammer interface idea though: namely that the bolt occasionally hits the hammer slightly differently, enough to 'bounce' the bolt to the side just enough for the shell casing to miss the ejector tip.

This last trip though, after all of my work [no adjustable gas block on it yet], it was shooting the brass between 1 and 3 oclock.

I did have a blue recoil buffer between the operating rod and the frame, on the recoil rod. This meant it didn't lock back consistently.

Next trip: some more tweaking of the bolt/hammer interface and the thinner black recoil buffer instead: it is sold in a two pack, but I will only use one as one is thinner than the blue one, but two is thicker.

I REALLY want to love this gun, but I am constantly frustrated at this jamming issue: at it is the second one I've had.:(

I've now built two AR-15s [A2 style and M4 style] so that I have a 5.56 that IS reliable. But I have to admit I like the Mini-14 style better. Like I prefer the M1A/M14 or the M1/garand over modern rifles too.:wacko:
 
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