What they always miss out in this infamous shootout is that (IIRC) only one of the FBI agents was a field agent (and therefore firearms proficient) the others were accountants and desk jockeys. All a bit of a screw up, but FBI really did not want to question their procedures and doubt the capabilities of dead agents, so they brought into question the effectiveness of the calibers. And so was born the 10mm that then morphed into the 40SW.
It was superior firepower and the nerve to deliver that firepower that killed the agents. They were in for the fight of their lives but they did not know it until things went to hell. The bad guys knew they were as good as dead or in jail for the rest of their lives if they did not deliver a superior performance. And at least one of them did. He was prepared mentally and physically for the gun battle.
As I remember, both were 82nd Airborne MP's before robbing banks. As I recall, they had to kill a guy to get that Mini long before they were stopped by the FBI and used it succcessfully to rob banks with. kwg
I think the police and other law enforcement personnel learned a valuable lesson fron this shootout and the LA bank robbers shootout. If they would have just had enough ammo for the guns they had they would have been ok.
The mags for the mini looked like 30rd. mags taped together. I dont know what was really used though.
I remember when this happened and later watching the TV movie. In the shootout scene they make it look like the bank robber pumped off at least a case of .223 through a fully automatic Mini-14, when in reality he probably didn't even finish off his second mag and he wasn't shooting a full auto weapon.
Suspects
* William Matix: S&W M3000 12-gauge shotgun, one round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
* Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.
I know, I know...wiki. But the typical hollywood treatment made the Mini look like the most evil "assault" weapon of all time. And a few years later, we had the Clinton AWB.
So did they have a Mini-14 or an AC556K in the actual robbery? Wikki sez Mini-14 but what's the official report state. The video link is clearly an AC55K.
I remember when this happened and later watching the TV movie. In the shootout scene they make it look like the bank robber pumped off at least a case of .223 through a fully automatic Mini-14, when in reality he probably didn't even finish off his second mag and he wasn't shooting a full auto weapon.
In an off handed kind of way this was sort of my point with the first comment i made, not to down play the tragic event but when Hollywood gets there hands on a story a six foot man becomes eight foot tall and for every one shot fired ten will be seen in the film and this is what i like to call the Rambo effect.
I remember reading that one or both of the bad guys were army rangers when in the service. The article said that is why Mike Platt was so aggressive as this is what they were taught while in the rangers.
I read a bit from the amazon book ("search inside" for Platt or Mini-14). This is interesting stuff. The conclusion: The FBI agents ammo was underpowered. Matrix took a 38 special +p to the face in the beginning moments, Platt took a 9mm through his right arm and on into his chest just stopping short of his heart. Matrix got up after a few minutes and walked into the car that Platt was trying to get away in.
Those two well placed shot alone would have saved lives had they been from more powerful weapons.
I know that secret service agents use the 357 SIG handguns (40 cal case necked down to 9mm bullet). Of course the secret service's bullets are laced with a neurotoxin - just a graze and the bad guy is done!
If i ever buy another home defense pistol, that will be the one I get- 357 magnum ballistics in an autoloader. Makes me think a .223 pistol with a high-cap mag might do well also, or a shotgun at close range....
It was also interesting to read that a perpetrator, even when hit with a well-placed shot to the head or to the heart could still function for up to 15 seconds- scary stuff......
Do you guys realize that a much smaller version of a firefight killed one or two West Memphis police officers several months ago?
They had no idea that during a traffic stop, the father and son duo (both rabid anti-govt. types: from IN or OH?) were intent on never being arrested and were armed with one or two semi-auto AKs and well-aimed.
I think that it was blamed on ammo failure and not so much underpowered. Also the developments in bullet design since 1986 don't hold the arguements of that FBI shootout. Notwithstanding that a shot to the right arm is not the best shot-placement and has little chance, no matter what the caliber, of ensuring a CNS or vital organ hit.
One could argue that the real failings in this incident were down to poor weapon retention/holsters (as most of the agents seemed to have lost guns before the fight) - gunfight rule 1, bring a gun. Also the offensive driving seemed to be lacking as most of the agents seemed to be pinned in their vehicles or in poor cover positions.
But as I have heard many say in relation to this incident, the FBI will seldom, if ever, public question their tactics or training especially when agents have been killed as a result. Far simpler and more acceptable to blame the kit.
Of course if you are tracking down 2 criminals who (facts you are aware of); have already killed 1 man and attemted to murder at least 3 others, have used semi-auto long guns and shotguns in robberies and have already done enough to get the death penalty, then you go after them with a couple of trained agents, a greater number of 'office/analysis' agents, all armed with hand-guns............don't you? Don't turn up to a gunfight with a knife.........and...........don't turn up to a rifle fight with a handgun (and drop it before you get there), you are destined to get a good kicking I am afraid.
Every time this shootout comes up in conversation (I have a lot of family in Miami area and know a number of LEOs down there) I can only view it as a class A screw up that unfortunately ended in the death of 2 agents. Yet it has become the mecca for all the 40SW and 45 acp lovers.
What has NEVER been questioned as a result of this [Miami Shootout] is the effectiveness of the 5.56mm. Look at how many rounds Platt fired (42), how many agents he hit (6) and how many survived (4 of those 6)! Yet our military and LE still use the humble 5.56mm!!
YES!
The mini-14 proved itself to be THE best combat weapon in the miami shootout. It outshot numerous battle-proven service revolvers, semi-autos, and shotguns.
......
I know, I know...wiki. But the typical hollywood treatment made the Mini look like the most evil "assault" weapon of all time. And a few years later, we had the Clinton AWB.
actually the mini was the victor of the 94 AWB/Mag-ban. Old Bill wrote a letter to DC and proposed the 10rd mag ban to "save our little carbine" (i.e. mini's). Mini's 5rd mag and "hunting" stock made it supremely suitable for furture (94~04) market.
Everybody was hurt, but Ruger got hurt the least what a "thinking outside of the box" tactic, clever, Ruger!
LOL...ya know? i was wondering why i NEVER saw him change until damned near the end.
MAN those fbi agents were inept, and it seems like the miami/dade county police weren't any better. he'll, they were shooting before the video started, and the police didn't come until 8 minutes after the start of the video?
LOL...ya know? i was wondering why i NEVER saw him change until damned near the end.
MAN those fbi agents were inept, and it seems like the miami/dade county police weren't any better. he'll, they were shooting before the video started, and the police didn't come until 8 minutes after the start of the video?
I have a few friends who were LEOs down there at the time. Biggest problem was, this was typical FBI; they told no-one and therefore had no LE back-up in place. First M-D police knew was when a report of shots fired came in. When they got there they had no idea who was on what side.
What they always miss out in this infamous shootout is that (IIRC) only one of the FBI agents was a field agent (and therefore firearms proficient) the others were accountants and desk jockeys.
IIRC, three of the agents (SAs Grogan, Dove and Risner) were SWAT qualified.
Originally Posted by nbh40
What has NEVER been questioned as a result of this [Miami Shootout] is the effectiveness of the 5.56mm. Look at how many rounds Platt fired (42), how many agents he hit (6) and how many survived (4 of those 6)! Yet our military and LE still use the humble 5.56mm!!
IIRC, it was determined that Platt was using cheap, relatively low performing Chinese made ammo.
Originally Posted by nbh40
I have a few friends who were LEOs down there at the time. Biggest problem was, this was typical FBI; they told no-one and therefore had no LE back-up in place. First M-D police knew was when a report of shots fired came in. When they got there they had no idea who was on what side.
I remember an account where one of the Deputies almost shot SA Mireles when he starting shooting into the FBI vehicle the bad guys were in.
[QUOTE=Moose;651974]IIRC, three of the agents (SAs Grogan, Dove and Risner) were SWAT qualified.
Actually, that makes it worse. If they were in any way competent, then why in the Hell did they deliberately choose to go up against rifle-armed criminals with handguns? If they didn't know any better then at least they had an excuse. This just shows they were incompetent.
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[QUOTE=TimberWolf7.62;652567]
Originally Posted by Moose
IIRC, three of the agents (SAs Grogan, Dove and Risner) were SWAT qualified.
Actually, that makes it worse. If they were in any way competent, then why in the Hell did they deliberately choose to go up against rifle-armed criminals with handguns? If they didn't know any better then at least they had an excuse. This just shows they were incompetent.
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