I was a small arms repair instructor at Aberdeen Proving Grounds
...
So in my opinion the Mini does not qualify as any sort of military weapon nor is it necessary that it does.
Ah, the never ending argument where everybody is sure their opinion is the correct one. If I was equipping an army would I issue them the mini-14, nope, I wouldn't issue them an ar either.
If I was heading for the hills and expected to face some skirmishes and survival situations and was toting my mini would I feel more than adequately prepared for whatever faced me, you betcha.
That's good info Lenno. I think there are still some things Ruger could do to elevate the Mini to a "near combat zone capable" rifle and keep it competively priced. All in all, if I found myself in a combat situation I think I could depend on my Mini's to hold up long enough to keep me safe until the calvary showed up. I'm sure they will outlast me and get passed on down to my kids and grand kids. Mil-spec or not. kwg
I am getting tired of reading the ar snobs preferences. I am an active duty leo with over 18 yrs. Full time, paid experience. I am a lifelong firearms enthusiast and a texas state certified police firearms and tactical instructor. There are three reasons why the ar-nuts critisize minis. They are as follows:
1.) limited or no personal exp with either rifle.
2.) biased, based on what is currently en vogue.
3.) obcessed with moa accuracy.
I have personally owned four ars and four mini-14s. The ars were colt and bushmaster. All of the afore-mentioned ars were well maintained, ran with high quality mags and top shelf factory mil-spec -ammo. All had numerous malfunctions i.e. Double feeds, over rides, short stroking. All rattled like a loose bolt on a 56 chevy.
I have yet to see a properly maintained mini-14 malfunction, even when using non name brand mags or non mil-spec surplus ammo.
I once worked at an agency where we were issued the fantastic ac556k select fire mini. These ran perfectly when hot, neglected and in continous full auto mode.
My current dept. Issue colt m-4 will not digest 'wolf' .223 ammo, but my personal 'new' tactical model mini-14 eats it like candy.
There is a myth that minis are not to be fired with .556 nato ammo.
Hmmmmmmmm, the ruger manual and customer service reps say it's okay.
My mini gobbles it up.
Now about accuracy. I can stay on eight inch steel plates at 100 yds all day long with open sights, standing. These rifles are designed for combat accuracy not minute of matchbox.
And yes it is a combat arm. Having seen action in numerous hot spots around the globe. Ask s.o.f. Editor robert k, brown, a noted combat veteran what he thinks about the mini-14. He carried it in africa, preferred over other available carbines. Ask the f.b.i. About the fear it struck in eight of their agents hearts on a miami morning in 1986 when two determined scumbags decided to shoot it out.
Reliability is the name of the game in gunfights not academic accuracy.
When the fecal matter hits the fan i'll reach for my mini and leave the m-4 sitting on the seat for a last ditch back-up. Nuff said.
Now about accuracy. I can stay on eight inch steel plates at 100 yds all day long with open sights, standing. These rifles are designed for combat accuracy not minute of matchbox.
Great comments. Hitting the target consistently while standing is becoming a lost art. The Marines firing their M-1's in WWII never used a Lead Sled, Sand Bags, or shooting tables with MOA adjustments to win the war.
It's also a little amusing that AR manufacturers are now making rifles with gas piston systems and advertise it as if it were a new invention. My shooting buddy always takes plenty of lube for his AR every time we shoot together. I just take ammo. He always seems to have at least one problem with his gun during a session. My Tactical is now two years old, has fired countless mags through it and has never had a misfire of any kind.
Besides, if you have a problem hitting what you are shooting at using 20 round magazines, just get a 30 round instead...you should at least get a few good hits!
seems like the 2 most common caliber conversions for the AR plaform behind .22LR are 9mm Para and X39. what's that tell ya?
that said I'll say I like the AR's, just don't owm one. I've got my 'woods gun' M30 set up good and my 'reach out' rifle '06 Ruger Mk77 set up too!
not to mention my Marlin Camp 9mm set up also!
hey I'll run what I bring to the fight!
@ antiAR well put!!! I admit that I bought my mini-14 because I couldn't afford an AR. But I couldn't be happier! I took it and qualified as a certified patrol rifleman with my department. Me and one of my Captain's were the only mini's there They put us to the far right because the AR crowd was scared of flying brass!!!! I'm happy with my Minute of pie-plate Mini. After a two day course while they were cleaning my Mini was going bang!!!
The mini-14 is absolutely not a battle weapon. It should not be classified as one. It is a harmless ranch rifle used best to fend off coyotes and other small animals.
Also, your Vepr and Saiga aren't what Russian soldiers were equipped with. The Saiga, specifically, was designed as a sporter rifle, and the Vepr is a highly modified version of the AK47.
I'm not sure I agree. The Saiga, as pointed out, is manufactured by Izhmash along side AK74s, etc. (see IZHMASH JSC official site) In fact, it is purported that when Saiga parts are running low, the line uses components from the military side of the factory, though I haven't had an opportunity to talk with one of the factory workers to definitively find out.
Siaga is built by IZHMASH in Russia. Who have been building the AK47 for over 40 years.
It is simply and nothing more than an AK with a sporting stock and a slightly modified magazine.
The buttstock has been swapped out for a monte carlo so the angle is different, and the magazines have a built in bullet guide.
There is more of a difference than the stock and magazine, however, but not much.
The linkage between the trigger and disconnector are different and the gas tube/handguard is different (retaining clips). The trigger is connected to the disconnector by a wishbone due to geometry differences in the sporting configuration within the receiver. It's supposedly straightforward to convert the Saiga back to the original configuration, however (haven't done a full conversion). There's plenty of how-to's floating around and it looks reasonable. One of the main points about the conversion is for 922(r) compliance and restoring the original geometry which the Saiga receiver supports natively.
One interesting note, Mikhail Kalashnikov is still employed by Izhmash.
Battle rifle? I don't know, maybe. It is decently accurate, fun to shoot, easy to break down and clean and, so far, reliable. It's relatively inexpensive to shoot, shares ammo with my AR and has modest recoil...for the kids/grandkids to shoot. It's a nice-looking little rifle and shares design attributes with a WW2 legend. The kicker is that I can pop in a 20-30 round magazine and this relatively docile-looking "ranch" rifle becomes a formidable weapon of self-defense. What's not to like?
'SHTF' gun can be something as mundane as a good quality .22LR rifle that has been tuned-up so to knock the nuts off a squack at 50 yds w/out knocking off his tallywhacker (sniper gun) to a cut-back 20 ga Mag H&R break open with a heavy pareing knife clamped to the muzzle for a bayonet (home defense gun). lots of options available for SHTF.
takeing the fight to the enemy is a horse of a different color altogether though. yes a Mini would do the job and as well as some but methinks I'd have another of my preferences.
bear in mind that my M30 is ready to bug-out if needed. a full 10 rd mag loaded and locked 6 more 10's and a couple 20's in the ammo satchel.
Let's look at it from a different angle: what in the world would make one conclude the Mini qualifies as a "battle rifle"? Being adopted by dirt poor 3rd rate "army" doesn't qualify. Has the Mini been used in anything that would qualify as a battle?
I don't disrespect the mini for what it is, but come on. A Win 94 has more "battle cred" than a Mini.
It's my understanding that the Mini is, in function and accuracy, comparable to the M1-Carbine. It certainly was a battle rifle.
By the time we won the Battle of Guadalcanal, with it's nearly nonstop massive human-wave Japanese attacks, the M1's and M1 Carbine's were smooth-bored! I doubt they were very accurate by the end . . .but they kept on firing.
I simply don't trust the AR/M16/M4 to have that ability/reliability in such a fight, and several incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan have confirmed that belief. A Mini may lose accuracy in rapid and/or sustained fire, but it doesn't lose functionality.
As for what armies select, I honestly don't give a da*n. Custer got wiped out in large part because the Sioux had lever-action repeaters, yet the Army in its infinite wisdom had issued Springfield 1873 trap-doors, which had a slower rate of fire and jammed often.
The Army never issued lever-action repeaters, even after Little Big Horn, despite their clear superiority in every way.
If Army procurement decisions determine what's a "battle rifle," then the superior repeaters of the Sioux are not battle rifles, and the jam-o-matic Springfields are. In that case, I don't want a "battle rifle."
Let's look at it from a different angle: what in the world would make one conclude the Mini qualifies as a "battle rifle"? Being adopted by dirt poor 3rd rate "army" doesn't qualify. Has the Mini been used in anything that would qualify as a battle?
I believe France used the Minis at one point, not that i consider their military particularly 'top rate' while i don't know about a full-fledged battle, the mini has been used by countless SWAT teams and police agencies to great success. Mini 14s use a (albiet highly debated) battle cartridge, and are superbly reliable. unless one is sniping at 500 yards with one, i don't see what would make an m4 more qualified as a battle weapon. forget that it is currently issued. We are really the only country to issue the M14, does that make it any less of a suitable weapon than the FAL?
I don't consider the M1 carbine a battle rifle. It's a substitute for a sidearm.
I'm not sure I'd call the police use as a great success, in the sense that the mini somehow did something that couldn't have been done better with a different weapon. But if a dept is cash-strapped they could do worse than a Mini. Like a highpoint or KelTec, for example. Frankly, I'm surprised any PD would issue a 5-6 MOA weapon to men who may need to use it in an environment where bad guys intermingle with innocent bystanders. SWAT? Really? I'm not saying they never used a Mini, but it seems like I always see them with an AR on TV.
So I'll disregard footage of SWAT with AR15 and instead believe what a guy on the internet says...
No doubt, SWAT currently uses pretty much only Ar/m16s. however, when SWAT teams were first formed, until the AR system became widely available to them, many teams used AC556 carbines.
Location: Democratic People's Republic of Fail-i-fornia
Posts: 311
Always keep in mind that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
And at $2000 a rifle you'd expect damn near flawless operation. No rifle is perfect, but some are more perfect than others. However it all comes down to the individual rifle. Many people swear by the Mini and many swear by the AR. I'm sure there are lemons in both just as there are GM lemons and Ford Lemons.
All you can do to choose your battle weapon is find one you like and are comfortable with. If it jams, find out why and if it can't be fixed get another or find another rifle you're comfortable with.
There is no such thing as the end all be all of anything and frankly discussions like this are rather pointless because there will never be a determining victor.
I've fired about 1k rounds thru my 195 since I've had it, and it MAYBE had 300 rounds thru it from the first owner. It has killed many an old propane tank, 55 gallon drum, beer can, milk jug, and of course countless targets. My cleaning is pretty basic, a few times down the bore with a snake, wipe off the bolt and the inside of the reciever, and lube. The only time I've ever had a malfunction it was due to the gas bushing being blocked by heavey fouling (used to shoot alot of wolf). That being said, I would in an instant trust it to defend my life or my family. The only other semi auto rifle I own is an sks, and compared to the sks the mini is a M1a national match in the accuracy department. AR fanboys are a funny bunch and I've known/know a few, they used snicker when I pull out the old ruger, but when all my rounds end up on the paper same as theirs, they kinda quit. One even asked to shoot the mini and said they were impressed by its light weight, and balance. Bottom line, for me anyway, I KNOW that mine can hit man sized targets at 200-300 meters, they may not all be in the 10ring, but they'll be on paper/center mass.
I stopped obsessing over 1moa accuracy along time ago, and started focusing on hitting the target, and I think I'm better off for it, you could be too.
Kind of a pointless discussion. The fact is if you are on the receiving end of any kind of weapon I doubt that you would be questioning whether or not it qualifies as a "Battle Weapon"...it will still make you dead in a short amount of time. A well placed hit from a .22LR will have the same results as a .556, 30-06, or 50 caliber. Civilian AR's are semi-autos, not the full autos of the military or police, so what makes them qualify as a "Battle Weapon" when they have never seen a battle? When the SHTF it will come down to who has the most ammo and is the best shot, not whose AR is the most tricked out with all the gadgets and do-dads from Midway USA.
They put us to the far right because the AR crowd was scared of flying brass!!!! I'm happy with my Minute of pie-plate Mini. After a two day course while they were cleaning my Mini was going bang!!!
me too!
Joe Garibaldi
Linear Mode
