Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 family of rifles

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Old 04-11-2009, 11:00   #1
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Accuracy- Mini-14 vs AR-15

Since I have 'em both, I decided to do a comparative accuracy test in a slightly "real world" scenario. April 9, 2009.

The Guns:

Mini-14 580 series made in 2007. Straight barrel, not the heavier tapered barrel on current production. Plastic stock.

AR-15 Colt 6920 "Law Enforcement Carbine" 16" barrel made in 2008. Collapsible factory stock, harder to use on the bench.

Both guns have identical Leupold Vari-X III 1.5 x 5 Heavy Duplex scopes, set 5 x for this test.
Both guns have 200-800 rds total, were cleaned and copper removed from barrels before test, then given 5 fouling shots.
Both guns have stock triggers, almost no creep but a bit heavy.

The Ammo:
PMC 55 gr fmj, 2008 production all from the same case.

The Test:
Firing from a not-quite-steady bench rest at 100 yds, wind was fairly steady, crosswind component about 5 mph.
Fire four 5 shot groups in a row, about 15 seconds between shots, not allowing the gun to cool.
Then fire 20 rds in less than a minute, no grouping.
Fire one final 5 shot group with the barrel hot.

Note: A combination of better bench rest, better ammo, better triggers, better scopes, and a better shooter; would probably reduce the groups by 1"-1.5"

Group size and displacement from center of the bull, in order of firing:

Mini-14:
3.5" group; 1.8" high and 0.5" left
2.0" group; 2.7" high and 0.7" left
3.7" group; 0.8" high and 0.5" left
3.5" group; 1.0" high and 2.0" left
3.0" group; 1.5" low and 0.5" left Hot barrel
So, the Ruger MAY start to shoot low as the barrel heats up.
Further testing required.

Colt AR-15 shorty:
3.5" group; 2.3" high and 0.3" right
3.7" group; 3.0" high and 0.7" right
3.5" group; 2.5" high and 1.5" right
3.3" group; 2.7" high and 0.8" right
4.0" group; 2.3" high and 0.5" right Hot barrel
So, the Colt MAY start to open its groups as the barrel heats up.
Further testing required.

One test does not tell the whole story, some day I'll repeat it with a better rest and better ammo. Under the right conditions, both guns are probably capable of shooting 2" groups or very close. Despite what you read in the guns mags or what someone did once on a good day, 2" groups are respectable for most rifles.

My full size AR-15A2 will shoot 2" groups or better all day long with good ammo, but that's a different style of rifle with different ammo and a better scope & trigger.

Do the newer tapered barrel 580's shoot any better, or was that just a production shortcut to use the same profile as the Mini-30?

Last edited by Gearhead Jim; 04-11-2009 at 12:17.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:46   #2
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I would think your AR15 is better then that considering the scope.
What's the twist of the barrel? The rifling might be a little to tight for a 55 grain bullet.
Try your test with 62 grain bullets and see what happens.
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Old 04-11-2009, 13:32   #3
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sub 1" moa with hornady 75 grain match ammo and 580 series mini 14
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Old 04-11-2009, 13:57   #4
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Gearhead,

That was a great, non-scientific side by side test. It's consistent with my personal experience with the 580 Mini's and that of some others I've read. My personal experience is as follows: 4 years US Army (82nd Airborne, 2 ID) 13 years law enforcement. I currently carry an issued Colt M4 with a Leupold CQT optic, plus each patrol car has a Colt commando with an 11.5 barrel. Additionally, I have two of my own AR15's (Bushmaster 16" and Armalite 20") I have three 580 series Mini 14's (one NRA addition I have yet to fire).

I enjoy the comparison that we make between the two rifles. My take on them is this: The newest, 580 series Mini14's are as accurate as a standard, out of the box , no frills AR15. Having said that, if I were headed to Baghdad, Fallujah, Ramadi or Kabul, I would take the AR15/M16/M4. The reason? The mini needs a few improvements which could easily be made before it is ready for COMBAT. WAR. In other words, EXTENDED firefights in extreme conditions under long periods of time (months).

Firstly, it needs M1 Garand/M14/AR15 type ADJUSTABLE rear sights, for windage and elevation. Secondly, it needs a heavier barrel, to withstand whip and heat better. The new 580 series barrels are heavier and better, but not quite enough to carry into war. Thirdly, it needs to have an integral rail system, preferably 4 sided, for the different and obvious attachments. You can make all these improvements to the Mini via aftermarket improvements or gunsmiths, but Ruger should do this on their own, in order to make it a viable COMBAT rifle.

Having said all this, I think the Mini-14 does make a very good police/patrol rifle, as even the longest police firefights in the US (North Hollywood comes to mind) don't usually last more than about 30 minutes. Easily enough for a Mini to handle. If I were on the receiving end of a Mini-14, I would be very worried indeed. I love the Mini, and if it's all you can get (California residents), you're still doing good. With some tweaks, the Mini could go to war...but not yet.

Last edited by porkchop; 04-11-2009 at 14:01.
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Old 04-11-2009, 14:37   #5
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well said
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Old 04-11-2009, 22:08   #6
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It's also excels at knocking bowling pins and empty beer cans off of a fence rail at 100 yards.

A funner rifle to shoot I have yet to meet.

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Old 04-12-2009, 03:28   #7
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..., it needs to have an integral rail system, preferably 4 sided, for the different and obvious attachments.
Why???
It's so much better to carry a rifle that does not have four cheese grinders attatched to it. Even with only the Amega-ranges scout rail mounted on my Mini, I experienced it was really easy to get small cuts everywhere the skin was exposed.
As for what the mini was intended for, I think it does the job great! -without too much of these sharp edges. -No need to wear gloves at all times.

I also think Gearhead Jim's side by side comparison was great! Not too scientific, but a good test to show how the two rifles stands up together. Great job!


... in a slightly "real world" scenario. April 9, 2009.
This day (April 9th) I raised my glass standing in saloute to the brave men who stood up for our country 69 years ago. April 9th 1940 German troops invaded Norway.

Last edited by Hessern; 04-12-2009 at 03:30.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:15   #8
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Originally Posted by Gearhead Jim View Post
Despite what you read in the guns mags or what someone did once on a good day, 2" groups are respectable for most rifles.
Excellent comparison, thanks for posting. Nice to see the mini holding it's own despite all we read about how the AR's are SO much more accurate.

As for the comment about 2' groups, maybe for carbines and semi-autos. If any of my bolt actions shot two inch groups I'd be mighty disappointed. Even my cheapo Stevens Model 200's in .223 and .243 consistently do better than that. Of course they're basically the tried and true good ol' Savage 110, so I expect the good accuracy they provide
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:46   #9
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[QUOTE=[B]Hessern[/B];531493]"Why???
It's so much better to carry a rifle that does not have four cheese grinders attatched to it. Even with only the Amega-ranges scout rail mounted on my Mini, I experienced it was really easy to get small cuts everywhere the skin was exposed."
]


No, the Mini doesn't *HAVE* to have a rail system. It's a great little rifle. But if you were to take it into C O M B A T, as I was saying , you would need one. I'm sorry your Amega Ranges equipped Mini is giving you owies and boo-boo's. Maybe you should stick with another rifle. The point of this post was a comparison between the Mini 14 and the AR15. That's why I mentioned it.

Last edited by porkchop; 04-12-2009 at 07:53. Reason: spelling errors
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:12   #10
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I'm just a beginner, so take this for what ever it's worth.

If my mini shot any better, I wouldn't know it.....it shoots better than I do!

Thanks for the report, Jim. I enjoy that type of info.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:24   #11
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[QUOTE=porkchop;531512]
Originally Posted by [B
Hessern[/B];531493]"Why???
It's so much better to carry a rifle that does not have four cheese grinders attatched to it. Even with only the Amega-ranges scout rail mounted on my Mini, I experienced it was really easy to get small cuts everywhere the skin was exposed."
]


No, the Mini doesn't *HAVE* to have a rail system. It's a great little rifle. But if you were to take it into C O M B A T, as I was saying , you would need one. I'm sorry your Amega Ranges equipped Mini is giving you owies and boo-boo's. Maybe you should stick with another rifle. The point of this post was a comparison between the Mini 14 and the AR15. That's why I mentioned it.
You mean like the new Tactical Minis with the ATI stocks? I've got 4 rails on mine. Would that make it a "BATTLE" rifle?

Jim
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:32   #12
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Sorry Porkchop, I was maybe a bit too quick when replying there, and didn't fully get it that you compared the two as combat rifles. My mistake... For a combat rifle the Mini would certainly benefit from some 'adjustments'. I for sure would keep the Amega rail on mine . -But on the other hand; why would I need it? If I ever was to see combat, I'd be carrying my issued HK416 anyway (which of course has quad picatinny rails).

But for all civilian purposes, I think the Ruger scope mounts really do the trick (mine is a Ranch Rifle).
Regarding an M1 styre rear sight, I totally agree!

well, back to topic: It's really good to see that the Mini can keep up with the AR when it comes to practical accuracy.
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Old 04-12-2009, 13:14   #13
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Originally Posted by Hessern View Post
Sorry Porkchop, I was maybe a bit too quick when replying there, and didn't fully get it that you compared the two as combat rifles. My mistake... For a combat rifle the Mini would certainly benefit from some 'adjustments'. I for sure would keep the Amega rail on mine . -But on the other hand; why would I need it? If I ever was to see combat, I'd be carrying my issued HK416 anyway (which of course has quad picatinny rails).

But for all civilian purposes, I think the Ruger scope mounts really do the trick (mine is a Ranch Rifle).
Regarding an M1 styre rear sight, I totally agree!

well, back to topic: It's really good to see that the Mini can keep up with the AR when it comes to practical accuracy.


I would agree with everything you said; I said pretty much the same thing - I would carry an M16 variant into combat. BUT THE MAIN TOPIC OF THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT A COMPARISON OF THE TWO. THE M16 IS A COMBAT RIFLE. YOU CAN'T COMPARE THE TWO RIFLES WITHOUT ACKNOWLEDGING THOSE DIFFERENCES. I think, Hessern, you and I are on the same sheet of music when it comes to the two rifles. I just assumed you had read the whole thread.
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Old 04-12-2009, 20:29   #14
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I do not have a Mini-14, but I do have a Mini-30 and a Colt AR-15 HBAR II/16inch barrel. My mini is old and has been through a lot of changes($$$) over the paste few decades. It has been my experience that there is no way a Ruger Mini in any caliber can compete with a good quality AR-15 in the accuracy dept.

Gearhead, I like your test. If you placed all of your mini groups on top of each other, how big would your total 25 shot group be? By my rough estimation it would be about 7 inches? Same for the AR, how big was the total 25 shot group?

Here is 100 yard 5 shot group from my Colt AR at 100 yards. AR is stock except for a free float handguard topped with a Bushnell 2.5-16x42 scope.


Here is my Colt at 50 yards. The top group is 10 rounds and the bottom is 20.


There isn't a Mini on the planet that can shoot like this.
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Old 04-13-2009, 00:12   #15
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steve

Your top group looks like mine with an Oly 20" SUM and factory ammo (Hornadty Varmint Express 55 gr.).
It will do that time after time off the bi-pod.

"There isn't a Mini on the planet that can shoot like this."

I haven't seen one, either. I like my Minis, but they have accuracy limitations, and no amount of low-cost tinkering and tuning is going to get that kind of results.

As far as those test results, if I had an AR that shot 3" groups, I'd investigate what the problem was. My opinion is you would reap more benefits in accuracy by investing in the AR than Mini.

"If I were on the receiving end of a Mini-14, I would be very worried indeed. "

I've got to agree with that. As a defensive weapon, most Mini's are going to work very well.
When you're wanting to shoot ground squirrels or small groups at 250 yards, they are very frustrating.
For that application, the AR platform is a lower-cost solution. Invest in a good free-floated barrel, a good trigger and good optics, the rest really doesn't have any influence.
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:44   #16
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Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
...
Gearhead, I like your test. If you placed all of your mini groups on top of each other, how big would your total 25 shot group be? By my rough estimation it would be about 7 inches? Same for the AR, how big was the total 25 shot group?
...
Unfortunately, I threw away the targets after recording the numbers. Just by memory, I'm thinking both guns would have produced an overall group of about 7"-9" but that's just a guess.

As mentioned in the original post, there were lots of little things working to degrade the accuracy of both guns, under the right conditions I would expect both of them to shoot about 2" or slightly larger. That's about what i would expect from the AR shorty, much better than I expected from the Mini-14.

I'm really wondering if the newer tapered barrel on the 580 is any improvement over my early 580.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:37   #17
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Steve4102,

Comparing an old Mini 30 and AR15 is not really fair comparison. Apples and oranges in a way. Having said that, the old, 181 seres mini's were not that accurate and even if they were, once they heated up, all your accuracy was gone. The new 580 series are much better, and owning a 580 is almost like owning a different rifle. It looks the same, but shoots much better. My first 580 I bought with the intention of sending off to Accuracy Systems. The dealer told me to hold off and shoot it before I made that decsion - I might save a lot of money. I took his advice and was pleasantly surprised. If Ruger had made these improvements 15 years ago like they should have, we might be dealing with a world class rifle now.
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Old 04-13-2009, 14:46   #18
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Originally Posted by porkchop View Post
Steve4102,

Comparing an old Mini 30 and AR15 is not really fair comparison. Apples and oranges in a way. Having said that, the old, 181 seres mini's were not that accurate and even if they were, once they heated up, all your accuracy was gone. .
Ah, Nope! My stock Mini-30 missed becoming a member of the MOA club by a few thousands of an inch. My Mini is now an ASI conversion and it will Not compete with my "stock" AR.
As for the mini heating up and the accuracy "gone", just more ****-poor design & manufacturing by Bill Cheap Ass Ruger.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:43   #19
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Originally Posted by porkchop View Post
Gearhead,

That was a great, non-scientific side by side test. It's consistent with my personal experience with the 580 Mini's and that of some others I've read. My personal experience is as follows: 4 years US Army (82nd Airborne, 2 ID) 13 years law enforcement. I currently carry an issued Colt M4 with a Leupold CQT optic, plus each patrol car has a Colt commando with an 11.5 barrel. Additionally, I have two of my own AR15's (Bushmaster 16" and Armalite 20") I have three 580 series Mini 14's (one NRA addition I have yet to fire).

I enjoy the comparison that we make between the two rifles. My take on them is this: The newest, 580 series Mini14's are as accurate as a standard, out of the box , no frills AR15. Having said that, if I were headed to Baghdad, Fallujah, Ramadi or Kabul, I would take the AR15/M16/M4. The reason? The mini needs a few improvements which could easily be made before it is ready for COMBAT. WAR. In other words, EXTENDED firefights in extreme conditions under long periods of time (months).

Firstly, it needs M1 Garand/M14/AR15 type ADJUSTABLE rear sights, for windage and elevation. Secondly, it needs a heavier barrel, to withstand whip and heat better. The new 580 series barrels are heavier and better, but not quite enough to carry into war. Thirdly, it needs to have an integral rail system, preferably 4 sided, for the different and obvious attachments. You can make all these improvements to the Mini via aftermarket improvements or gunsmiths, but Ruger should do this on their own, in order to make it a viable COMBAT rifle.

Having said all this, I think the Mini-14 does make a very good police/patrol rifle, as even the longest police firefights in the US (North Hollywood comes to mind) don't usually last more than about 30 minutes. Easily enough for a Mini to handle. If I were on the receiving end of a Mini-14, I would be very worried indeed. I love the Mini, and if it's all you can get (California residents), you're still doing good. With some tweaks, the Mini could go to war...but not yet.
I agree on the sights. As for hanging stuff on it, Ruger now sells them from the factory with the ATI stock, which has rails. Not sure if this is the optimal solution, though. The SCAR stock is quite sturdy and would probably hold up well under bad conditions, but it's major $$$$, moreso than the furniture that goes on an AR-15/M-16/M-4.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:38   #20
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I compare my mini to ARs all the time and it makes me love my mini even more. My, out of the box, NRA printed these sub moa groupings at 100yds.
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Old 04-14-2009, 15:08   #21
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Originally Posted by 4thSBCT View Post
I compare my mini to ARs all the time and it makes me love my mini even more. My, out of the box, NRA printed these sub moa groupings at 100yds.

Why the difference in POI?

If your Mini can really shoot "sub MOA" groups, then maybe it's time you print up an MOA target and become a member.
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Old 04-14-2009, 16:44   #22
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Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Why the difference in POI?

If your Mini can really shoot "sub MOA" groups, then maybe it's time you print up an MOA target and become a member.

I was dailing in my iron sights. I hope to join the club as soon as I can get out and shoot.
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Old 04-14-2009, 19:05   #23
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Mini-14 reliability trumps AR-15 accuracy IMHO!!!
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Old 04-14-2009, 19:17   #24
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ya know...all this accuracy chit chat is cool and all...if I want to drive tacks at 100 yards or more I'll swallow hard and get an AR...but see all I'm concerned about is putting round after round in center body mass with minimal effort and maximum reliability....and with the $$$ I saved buying a MINI 14 I can get a case of.223 and then some.
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Old 04-14-2009, 19:35   #25
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Originally Posted by 4thSBCT View Post
I was dailing in my iron sights.
These groups were with "iron sights" at 100 yards? Now that's funny
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