Ruger 10/22 Anything about the Ruger 10/22 family of rifles.

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Old 09-05-2011, 00:40   #1
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Accuracy question for a stock bbl 10/22

Hi everyone and thanks for any input.

My current obsession is a 10/22 project built around the idea of the most accurate 'Stinger capable' rifle possible for general use - range and varmint.

Current configuration - stock stainless barrel with a M16 style drive-on flash hider (wanted the extra weight up front as well as protection for the crown), VQ target trigger, hammer, shims, bolt release, takedown screw, TruGlo iron sights, factory scope mount, Simmons 4x32 scope, Hogue nylon stock, swivel head bipod, QA sling on QD swivels.

Overtravel has been set to eliminate most overtravel while allowing just enough for reliable function. The VQ hammer has dropped trigger pull to just over 2-1/2 lbs.

Planned upgrades - a Simmons Whitetail Classic will be here Tuesday. I will probably need to pick up a new Blackhawk cheek rest for the rifle, since it is going to be a high mount. Am considering a Leupold Rifleman mount along with QR rings to allow me to quickly remove the scope if damaged and fall back on the irons.

Current accuracy - pretty poor with Fed Automatch and Bulk pack. The Bulk pack seems to throw flyers often enough to open 20 yd groups to 1" center to center, while the Automatch exhibits vertical stringing around a 1/2" wide group. CCI minimags are better with all groups (except for called flyers) about 1/2" at 20 yds, and Stingers are producing 3/8" to 1/2" groups at the same distance. All groups fired from full prone position using the bipod, with most groups of 10 shots. I definitely feel that my cheek weld is inadequate with this configuration so I am not sure to what extent parallax is problematic.

So, is this configuration shooting to its potential, or am I the weak link and it should do better, or is there something I am missing? I would really like to produce tighter groups than this - would bedding the stock be a good next step, or would I be better off to bite the bullet and go to something like a Shilen bbl? No backup irons then, so maybe I should just live with this level of accuracy until I start on a purpose built rifle for benchrest around a VQ receiver?

Thoughts anyone?
All the best,
Grumpy
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Old 09-05-2011, 05:51   #2
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Have the factory barrel reworked and it should shoot much better. Another option would be completely new barrel. I believe GM makes a bbl with rifling for the faster Stingers. I'd also dump the high mount/cheek rest idea were it me. Find a lower posisition is more natural. Must have something to that, how many other high weld posisitions you see? Same with the QR set-up///how often you hear of these being utilized due to need?
As for the VQ receiver...it's a fine option but if you're to go that route, don't skimp on the rest of the components. Such a level of receiver, certainly loses it's allure and purpose if low-budget parts are used with it. I'd use a minimum of a Jard trigger in such a build. Add in a GOOD bolt and GOOD barrel all properly bedded. Optics should be equally GOOD - Burris of Nikon as a start. It's a bit more than this current build which in most regards is a budget-build. There's also the KIdd receiver as well as a few others that are just as, if not a bit nicer than the VQ one and not paying extar for the name.
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Old 09-05-2011, 13:54   #3
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The sloppy chamber on the 10/22 will never allow you to get really good accuracy. You can have the factory barrel set back as stated above. There are several people over on Rimfire Central that do the work and it is cheaper than a new barrel.

RimfireCentral.com - Rimfire Community!

Have you pillar bedded the action into the stock? That is a must even if they say the stick is pillar bedded already. It must be custom fit to your action. Lay in the side edges of the action and the front of the receiver. I have the first two inches of barrel bedded also.

Often you need to square the bolt face to the barrel also.

I have my stock barrel down to 1/4"@25 yards using minimags. The real test is that is still holds 1/2" @ 50! Minimags will do that but stingers will not in my rifle.

I have done a serious search for the perfect ammo and have found that the top grade Elley and Midus will do better than the mini-mags but cost $20-$30 per box. The slight accuracy edge is not worth the price and it is nice to know I can drop into Walmart and pick it up, and can keep a full brick at all times without going bankrupt.

Bulk stuff, or any cheap .22 ammo for that matter, is cheap due to lack of consistancy and QC. I am not going to depend on flier prone ammo for any use. If I want to go bang, make noise and not hit something I will buy firecrackers. They are cheaper and I will not go hungry.

As O'Conner once said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting".

My own goal was to get as much accuracy as I could without spending a fortune. There are people that put 3K-5K in their 10/22 rifles when they could do better for less.
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Old 09-05-2011, 18:08   #4
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Thanks KYnabob;

Sounds like I am shooting at or near the limits of ammo in this bbl then. The stock has not been bedded yet, so that is likely the last low $$ upgrade for this build (after the scope business gets sorted out). Guess I will save my remaining stock of bulk ammo for pistol practice and snap shooting practice with the 10 22. This build is definitely in line with your goals - max accuracy on a tight budget, since I built it as a training rifle. Next I need to try it out with Remington subsonic, since I have had good results with it in the past. Don't know where to buy Eley in this neck of the woods though.

Thanks BlkHawk73;

This build was originally a training rifle for use with my Mini 14 in a similar configuration (harris bipod, nikon 3-9x40 w/BC caps and ARD, blackhawk cheek rest and accustrut) since .22lr is way cheaper than 5.56x45. I am definitely catching the benchrest bug though and will heed your advice to put top notch parts in my next 10 22 build. Not sure when I will start though - too many bills and not nearly enough $$ to do everything at once....

Thanks again and all the best,
Grumpy
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:05   #5
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Using Stingers shows the problem of the factory chambered barrel.

The Stinger is just a bit longer than a standard velocity round. The case is being held tighter at the neck.

Cutting a very small amount of length off the barrel at the chamber face, rechambering for a tighter fit (Bentz), crowning the barrel will make for a very accurate rifle.

The Stinger will have difficulty in chambering when you do the mod. IMO, the standard velocity rounds will turn out to be your accurate round. Mine likes CCI Mini Mag.

Then you need to pillar bed the action, pin the rear of the action, adjustable sear, and.........................
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Old 09-06-2011, 13:30   #6
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I have found that minimags are the best shooters in most of my rifles, and if they are not best they are so close it is not worth keeping seperate brands to accomodate the individual rifles.

The absolute best round in my 10/22 was SK Pistol Match but you have to order it from Midway at $8 per 50rds. Minimags are half that from walmart.

GOM, you do not have to buy a bedding kit to do the 10/22. Use JB Weld or Devcon glue and coat the metal with vasiline as a release agent. It will work fine. I have even done HP rifles with JB Weld.

If you do get into bench shooting that rimfire central site is also good for picking up used parts. Many will get in financial trouble and part out a gun to raise some funds. You can pick up most items at half retail if you watch and wait for the deals.

When you say you are building a "trainer rifle" are you building to specs for one of the organized activities; Rimfire Sporter CMP, Appleseed, Metallic sihlo hunter...?
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Old 09-06-2011, 16:41   #7
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While pillar bedding or standard bedding for that matter can improve the performance downrange, it's not a must-do. Have more than a couple builds here that'll shoot verrrry well, one will do quarters at 100yds, nickels on occasion (wind, me). Guess what, it;s not bedded. 3 other builds will make thier range debut soon hopefully and those have yet to be bedded. Depending on their performance, they may nit be. It's not a must-do.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:49   #8
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If you use ammo like SK or Wolf Target Match (same stuff) and then compare to Mini Mags you see a big difference in how they perform.
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Old 09-07-2011, 17:00   #9
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OK, so you have a gun that shots quarters at 100 yards? (One of the super Rugers they only send to Maine)

You say it is not bedded?

What might it do if you bedded it? You will never know what it could have done until you do it.

And again, some guns shoot best with some ammo. Others do not. You have to test and see.

Then you have to decide if you can keep a supply of that specific ammo. Or perhaps the price is not worth the difference between 1/2" @ 50 and 5/8"@ 50. That was what I found. 1/8" at 50 yards was not worth $7-$27 per box and having to order from half way across the nation if and when they have them in stock.

Minimags do 5/8"@50 and I can get them when I buy groceries. I zeroed my scope for minmags two years ago and have not had to touch the dials since then. Off and on ammo requires me to rezero every time I run out or switch brands. It just ain't worth it.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:13   #10
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Red Cent,

I want to keep Stinger compatibility to use this as a light varmint rifle if I get back into hunting. I will probably build another to use as a purist bench rest rifle.

Kynabob,

You are absolutely right about the mini-mags. Until I started trying to accurize this 10/22, I hadn't been able to tell the difference between them and the Remington sub-sonics. While the sub-sonics are still way better than the Federal bulk ammo, the Mini-Mag definitely proved to be more accurate yesterday. Best group with the Rems was about 5/8" at 20 yds, while the CCI pulled in an honest 3/8" group at the same distance and the worst group was about 5/8" - due to my lousy marksmanship (called flyer).

I didn't have any Minimag HP on hand yesterday - any difference between them and the Minimag lead round nose I used for accuracy?

As far as "training" is concerned, I am interested in getting into formal competition but I need to get some skill back first. I spent 7 years out of the shooting hobby due to school and family, but now that I have a decent job and a little extra $$ I have been trying to make up for lost time. The 10/22 seems like an ideal training rifle in that its affordable and easy to work on. As of last night, I have the PC adjustable sear installed and the trigger is incomparably better to what it came with from the factory! Definitely looking into bedding the action next, but more aggressive action (truing up the bolt face, setting back the bbl and rechambering, etc) are beyond any tooling I have on hand now.

I did end up putting a Simmons Pro-Hunter 3-9x40 on with the lowest rings I could find. The White-Tail Classic is being saved for another project. The low rings are allowing a better cheek weld, but I still would like a little pad - and a scope with SF or AO for close range.

Thanks again,
Grumpy
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Old 09-08-2011, 14:22   #11
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Originally Posted by KYnabob View Post
OK, so you have a gun that shots quarters at 100 yards? (One of the super Rugers they only send to Maine)

You say it is not bedded?

What might it do if you bedded it? You will never know what it could have done until you do it.

And again, some guns shoot best with some ammo. Others do not. You have to test and see.

Then you have to decide if you can keep a supply of that specific ammo. Or perhaps the price is not worth the difference between 1/2" @ 50 and 5/8"@ 50. That was what I found. 1/8" at 50 yards was not worth $7-$27 per box and having to order from half way across the nation if and when they have them in stock.

Minimags do 5/8"@50 and I can get them when I buy groceries. I zeroed my scope for minmags two years ago and have not had to touch the dials since then. Off and on ammo requires me to rezero every time I run out or switch brands. It just ain't worth it.
As they're more casual plinkers than something I go and try and make 1 teeny tiny hole with 10 shots, bedding to gain such a slight improvement isn't worth it me on these. There's an pending build that will be done with more serious intentions so that one will get the bedding. I'll put more $ into better parts for that so bedding it will get the maximum out of that $$$$.
As you said, it comes down to deciding if the bedding is worth the potential extra accuracy. Sometimes it is, others times it isn't. In my opinion, if it were, it would also be worth it to better the rest of the gun as well and not simply settle on mid-level parts.
The best one here currently shoots the Wolf Target stuff best so I'd prefer to leave it as is. Each one gets a trail with diff ammo and then gets only that which it shh0ots best. If it's the bulk Federal, fine. if it's the Federal Gold Ultra Match, that's fine too - just doesn't get shot as much at $16.00/50.
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Old 09-09-2011, 14:00   #12
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Originally Posted by grumpy_old_man View Post
Red Cent,

I want to keep Stinger compatibility to use this as a light varmint rifle if I get back into hunting. I will probably build another to use as a purist bench rest rifle.


I didn't have any Minimag HP on hand yesterday - any difference between them and the Minimag lead round nose I used for accuracy?
You will probably find that the Minimags will do anything the Stingers will and you will not need to reset the zero when you make a change in ammo. There will almost always be a shift in POI when you change from one brand/type to the other. The varmits do not know if they are light or heavy and the Stingers do not extend the range of the .22 at all.

I have not noted a difference between MM hollow points and solids. It is the consistancy of the ammo that gives the accuracy more than the bullet design in .22lr. They seem to have complete consistancy in powder charge, bullet weight and crimp, therefore the slugs keep going into the same spot. You do not get the same consistancy until you pay double their price for the top brands.

It sounds like you have taken your 10/22 about as far as possible without machine work. It also sounds like you are getting good results for your efforts. If you are getting 1/2" @ 20-25 you can stay fed in an emergency and if you miss you will know it is you and not the sorry gun/cheap ammo.

If you want to have some fun competing with little preasure then check into the Rimfire Sporter CMP competitions.

The Appleseed Project is also a fine step to take. If you have been out of the loop for a few the Appleseed with get you in contact with other shooters too. It also counts as a shooting event for CMP purchases and the events are often held by CMP clubs. That will put you in contact with CMP folks if you decide to get more involved or purchase a CMP rifle. A $500 M1 is a good deal!
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Old 09-09-2011, 18:53   #13
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Again, the Stinger is being held better because it is longer than the standard case.

Truing the bolt face is not really necessary unless you thread the receiver. If any 10-22 with a normal v-block is true, it is an accident. Barrel droop, however small will exist. I went as far as to install a pillar bedded barrel adjustment bolt about four inches in front of the action screw. I can adjust + or - barrel movement.
The best thing is to have the headspace set tighter. The headspace at the factory is approximately .450 or more. The desired measurement is .425. This traps the case against the chamber face and holds it consistently. This is easily accomplished if you have a very good depth gauge. Simply grinding/filing/sanding off the bolt face will accomplish this important mod.
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Old 09-17-2011, 17:07   #14
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Hi Kynabob;

>>>...It sounds like you have taken your 10/22 about as far as possible without machine work. It also sounds like you are getting good results for your efforts...<<<

Thanks much. It sounds like the only things left are some fine tweaking with the bedding and maybe the headspace alteration that Red Cent mentioned, unless I am feeling bold enough to recut my crown or redo the chamber!

>>>...If you are getting 1/2" @ 20-25 you can stay fed in an emergency and if you miss you will know it is you and not the sorry gun/cheap ammo...<<<

Funny you should mention that, but it is exactly the role in my emergency planning that this rifle will fulfill after it's training role is largely finished. I am debating some sort of 'subdued' duracoat, but am undecided as to which direction to take this - something like a field gray on the bbl and action only which would blend with the black stock and scope or a full camo job. Any thoughts?

Red Cent;

>>>...The best thing is to have the headspace set tighter. The headspace at the factory is approximately .450 or more. The desired measurement is .425. This traps the case against the chamber face and holds it consistently. This is easily accomplished if you have a very good depth gauge. Simply grinding/filing/sanding off the bolt face will accomplish this important mod...<<<

Very interesting! I do have a good depth gauge, and my rifle's headspace mikes out at .045". Am I right to read your post as meaning that I can do this by hand (i.e. no end mill or other serious machine tools available). If so, what grit of paper would you use? Perhaps a 400-600 grit? Would it be do-able to have a stationary block and move the bolt face over it to remove the necessary .002" or so?

Thanks for any info and all the best,
Grumpy
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:23   #15
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I have an "inexpensive" belt and disc sander. I rigged a wooden jig that presented the face of the bolt to the disc in a good and square fashion. I used a 600 grit disc and did a very little at a time. I have a very decent digital depth gauge and mine worked out that I got .426 and a little pressure on the dial got .425. Close enogh for government work .
Feeds, fires, and ejects very well.



List of mods:
Home made "custom" stock
E. R. Shaw barrel
Adjustable sear
Stone hammer
Adjustable V-block
Pillar bedded action screw
Pinned action/receiver
Bed barrel from action screw and 4"s forward.
Trigger torsion bar (remove trigger return spring and cap)
OT stop
Extended mag release
Additonal pillar bedded barrel adjustable tension screw
Bolt hold open/release
Radius bolt at rear.
Bolt buffer

I performed most of the labor and the result is a really cheap build that performs admirably. A good group is around 3/4" @50 yards. I believe a more competent shooter could get better results.
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Old 09-21-2011, 15:06   #16
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Originally Posted by KYnabob View Post
It is the consistancy of the ammo that gives the accuracy more than the bullet design in .22lr. They seem to have complete consistancy in powder charge, bullet weight and crimp, therefore the slugs keep going into the same spot.
The target is a recent ten-shot group fired from my stock 10-22 with fresh Mini-mags...it used to shoot 3/4 groups several years ago. I think new 22 ammo that Walmart sells is not as consistent as some of the older Mini mag ammo I own...

My rifle does this all the time with this stuff. You can even tell when you shoot it by the sound...crack, crack, pop, crack, pop...etc.

M
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Old 09-22-2011, 23:09   #17
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Hi m1key;

Weird that CCI minimag is performing inconsistently for you - it's just about the best stuff after Stingers that I can find over here! Could it be that your wally world has some older (improperly stored?) ammo? The ones here go through ammo like it's going out of style (I'm to blame for part of that - just cleaned 'em out of .308 today).

Anyway, good luck on it and sorry to read that CCI isn't working out for you.

All the best,
Grumpy
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Old 09-23-2011, 13:30   #18
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I agree, Go to a LGS and get some fresh CCI. I have never had a bad batch, even from Wally World, but it could happen.

On the headspace issue;

If you do not have or trust your ability with power tools you can use a flat piece of glass and a good quality woodworking square. Use stick on sanding disk paper on the glass. Hold the bolt against the square and the face against the sandpaper on the glass and remove metal until your headspace works into place. This will also square the bolt face.

While you have the extractor out you can give it a little tweek with a triangle file and improve the grab angle.

You will also want to polish all the bearing surfaces on the bolt and the firing pin and it's channel.

Do not forget to lube everything up when you reassemble.

Most of the time barrel droop is not going to be an issue with the stock barrel unless you have removed and replaced the barrel so much it is loose in the receiver. That generally sets in when the heavy tubes come into play.

Things are starting to get more complecated as we discuss this and it is going way past the newbie stage and what most should be trying on the living room coffee table.

Not that anything discussed has been wrong. In fact I am amazed at the accuracy of the advice.

Should we start breaking each improvement operation into threads we can sticky as reference?
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:48   #19
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Thanks much KYnabob;

1. I really hesitate to take power tools, even with a jig, to any firearm but have a lot of experience using files and paper to hand fit parts on guns and even limited experience hand fabricating small parts (oddball shaped springs, parts for black powder revolvers, and firing pins). I will need to be careful, but it should be do-able.

2. Yesterday's range session is showing that tighter groups are possible with the bedding changes (took out the pressure pad on the front of the stock and built up a pressure pad made of steel bedding compound running from about 2" to 4" forward of the pad that holds the takedown screw) and change in scope to a Tasco Varminter (6-24x42M). Significant numbers of 3/8" groups with a couple a hair smaller.

3. However, the 'first round flyer' effect is becoming pronounced. I have seen it before, but now that the body of the group is tightening up, that first round that opens it up is much more noticeable. Any way to fix this? I read some place that it is an artifact of the firing pin's not hitting the same for the first as for subsequent rounds. FWIW I have been vigorously operating the bolt for that first round and still can't get rid of it. Yesterday I used 'throwaway' first rounds of bulk ammo (i.e. load a junk round, close bolt, load 10 shot mag of stingers or CCI minimag). Not good for survival hunting unless I keep the piece charged.

All the best,
Grumpy
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Old 09-24-2011, 16:37   #20
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Have you pinned the firing pin? A factory firing pin is not stable and will not strike the same place consistently.

A cheap and effective way is to force something in the channel directly above the firing pin and close to the face of the bolt. I used a slightly oversized cold rolled pin. A few taps will squeeze it into the channel and a couple of cautious taps will "trap" the firing pin. Of course, you don't want the pin to touch the firing pin. This will allow a consistent strike. Rimfire ammo is very picky on this. For consistent ignition, its a must.

Some use lead shot.

The 'smiths drill a hole in thee bolt.

Ruger 10/22 Firing Pin Modification
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Old 09-24-2011, 16:45   #21
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Another mod will secure the rear of the action/receiver. With one action screw, most do not think this is secure. In my picture, just above the trigger guard you will see a "washer" in the side of the stock. That is a decorative washer with a screw in the center. The other side looks the same. Each screw is threaded into a "post binder" pin that extends through the stock, through the rear trigger group pin hole and out the other side of the stock. Snugged down, you have effectively locked the barreled action into the stock front and rear like a real rifle should. Very inexpensive and simple to do.
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Old 09-24-2011, 17:22   #22
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Been looking for the kit. I believe I got mine from Rimfire Technologies. Has the "advanced" kit with pillar bedding for the front action screw with the bolt and screws for the pinning of the rear of the receiver.

If you can find the correct size, Lowes carries a "post binder" pin and screws. I picke some up and will put them on another 10-22 I have.
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Old 09-24-2011, 17:45   #23
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Here is a neat mod to really smooth out the trigger and take a few ounces off the pull. First, remove the trigger return spring and cap from behind trigger. Store away. Cut a 2" safety pin in this manner.



This is a torsion bar that is made out of some spring metal. Some use bobby pins, some use piano wire, but I find the safety pin works great and is practically ready made.



The torsion bar is installed before you put the hammer group back in the receiver. Install hammer group as usual and simply flex the pin down with the hammer pin. The torsion bar is installed so that it is against the right side of the receiver wall.
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Old 09-24-2011, 22:32   #24
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Originally Posted by grumpy_old_man View Post
Thanks much KYnabob;



3. However, the 'first round flyer' effect is becoming pronounced. I have seen it before, but now that the body of the group is tightening up, that first round that opens it up is much more noticeable. Any way to fix this? I read some place that it is an artifact of the firing pin's not hitting the same for the first as for subsequent rounds. FWIW I have been vigorously operating the bolt for that first round and still can't get rid of it. Yesterday I used 'throwaway' first rounds of bulk ammo (i.e. load a junk round, close bolt, load 10 shot mag of stingers or CCI minimag). Not good for survival hunting unless I keep the piece charged.

All the best,
Grumpy
First round flier is a constant problem with any simiauto rifle. It is mostly due to the cycling of the first round not being as forceful as the rest of the mag and the resulting abuse of the bullet is inconsistant and the first round goes one place and the rest go to another.

Some say it is the firing pin but it is not. The hammer is falling with the same force from the same spot and the firing pin is being moved consistantly with each hit. It is the impact of the bullet on the feed ramp that makes the difference. You simply can not cycle the bolt by hand with the same force as occurs when firing.

You know your gun is about right when you start noticing this effect. The consistancy of the slugs from one cycle of the action to another is becoming apparent, right down to the fact that the bolt is not bouncing off the buffer pin for the first shot. Just that little flat spot on the bullet nose caused by banging against the feed ramp is becoming and accuracy factor. That is how important consistant ammo is when you get to tuning like this.

Time to camfer the chamber mouth slightly and polish up everything leading up to the chamber. Just like doing a feed ramp job on a 1911. Problem is that the 10/22 has very little to polish.

You will probably always notice the first round going in as a flier. When shooting for group I usually dump the first round. When shooting a match where dumping a round is not allowed (many do allow it if you ask first due to it being such a common problem) you simply work inside your parimeters. The goal is to get the groups down to where the first round flier opens the group as little as possible. I use my 10/22 to shoot metallic silo and find that I can still hit the chickens @ 25 with my first shot, most of the time. I got my rifle down to the point that the first round flier is only about 1/8" off POA @ 25.

It is really irritating to get you rifle shooting a small ragged hole about 3/8" @ 25 yards and see that one bump off in the corner. Everyone is screaming "Wow what a group!" and all you can see is that first round flier that kept it from going inside 1/4".

At least you are not one of those guys that say "I had a 1/2" two shot group after I eliminated the 8 fliers!" I commend you on that. Some folks just do not believe that all the shots count.

Are you having trouble with your pulse bouncing the crosshairs with that 20x scope? When I went to the 20x I had to switch to the lead sled instead of sandbags due to my pulse bouncing the crosshairs off the aiming point.
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:05   #25
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I think I will do a bedding job on mine or at least try to pin the receiver to the stock. I have just installed my new target hammer ( lightened the trigger up nicely but still a little bit grabby ) and noticed there is about 2-3mm movement between the receiver and the stock.

I can't remember the movement being there before I took it apart so don't think it was something I did ( or at least hope not ) but not the best for accuracy I would think. The more I look at my new 10/22 the more I notice just how crappy the finish and workmanship is on it.

It makes my 580 mini 14 and 581 mini 30 look like a work of art in comparison and I bought the new .22 because I liked my new minis so much. I'm starting to regret my hasty choice of a 10/22 Ruger.
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