Ruger 10/22 Anything about the Ruger 10/22 family of rifles.

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Old 06-27-2010, 14:12   #1
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Accurizing # 3

This shows the pads and the posts that hold them.
The posts were made from a #5 grade bolt. Not the easiest to machine on a 40" lathe.
The metal was so soft, it was hard to hold in a big lathe chuck without crushing it.
When I re do it, I will use stainless steel all thread, it will make for a nicer looking post. the pads were machined out of aluminum. It was hard to make them move smoothly in the stock. You will see grease on them to make adjustment of them easier.
An allen head plug was loc-tited into the ends of the posts so that they could be adjusted through the bottom of the stock.
JB weld will be added to the top of the front pad, you can see I have it roughed up already. I think a good fit to the barrel is important.
The pad controlls the harmonics of the barrel and being adjustable, you can vary the pressure. The front pad has stopped the stringing I was getting when firing shots at a high rate of fire.

John K
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Accurizing # 3-dscn2177.jpg   Accurizing # 3-dscn2179.jpg  
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Old 06-27-2010, 14:21   #2
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Accurizing # 4

Here are pics of the posts. The sleeve that they fit in was tapped 3/8 x 16 from Derilin and glassed into the stock.
The upward pressure is easily adjusted with an allen head wrench from the holes in the bottom of the rifle.
I have only tested the pads twice with great results. I am kind of broke and cannot afford a lot of match ammo right now.
I think the mod shows promise with some tweeking.
It took more time than I thought it would, what amazed me was the groups I got with the Rem golden bulk ammo, the groups on that closed right up, they were really bad before and showed a major improvement.
I don't know if I already posted this, but my best 5 shot group at 50 yds was .474" with match ammo. There are not many carbines that will shoot that good, especially stock except for the barrel free float.
I would really like your comments, good or bad and any suggestions that you have.
This has helped groups and with more range time and time spent adjusting the pads, it will be interesting to see how good the groups may get.
I intend to modify the headspace on the bolt. It is .051" now and will be reduced to .043" and the FP will be pinned right above the pin to keep it from coming up when firing the weapon. This will also help groups
I may bed the action also.
My goal is a one hole group, but it will never get one. I don't know if I can do it, but I won't know unless I try.

John K
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Accurizing # 3-dscn2181.jpg   Accurizing # 3-dscn2184.jpg   Accurizing # 3-dscn2185.jpg   Accurizing # 3-dscn2182.jpg  

Last edited by dkac2; 08-14-2010 at 23:59.
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Old 06-28-2010, 20:39   #3
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I put a fair amount of work in this.
The front adjustable pad can make a difference.
I really thought someone would have a question, comment or something to say.
I didn't just do this for me, but for everyone with a 10-22 who would like better accuracy, especially from a Carbine.
You can see a pretty good improvement in the targets.
I really thought someone might be interested, I guess not, groups got better, no stringing with free floated barrel.
I'm not done yet, but if no one cares, I'll just keep it to myself.
When you see the guy with the Carbine outshooting your target rifle, it will be me.

John K

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Old 06-30-2010, 16:58   #4
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I would like to know what head spacing does for your groups? I keep thinking about having it done to my 10/22. Thanks for posting what you are doing step by step.

Tim
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Old 07-01-2010, 16:25   #5
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It can help the accuracy. You want it to be .043", never less.
If you get a cartridge with a thick base and the bolt face is less than .043", it could slam fire when the bolt is dropprd.
many times the headspace on the Ruger is just over .050"
Most ammo does not go over .040 to .041" thickness, many less than .040"
When you have excessive headspace, the firing pin has to push the bullet into the chamber first which takes energy from the FP, then fire the round.
The amount the cartridge needs to be pushed varies so your accuracy can vary because of different hits by the FP, some harder, some softer.
If you have it done, send it to a good shop. The face has to be 100% parellel with the face of the barrel or accuracy will be hurt.
It's not something to be done with a sanding wheel or files.
Pay the money and have it done right if you want to do it.
It's just one of those little things that adds up for the best acuracy.

John K

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Old 07-01-2010, 20:50   #6
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I followed your link over from rimfire central and appreciate all the information you're providing. I have to admit, though, that much has been beyond me. I am taking your advice and ordering the aluminum guard and trigger but it will take me awhile to absorb what you've posted here. I understand the reasons behind floating the barrel but why the pad?

Do I still need to float the barrel with a synthetic stock?

Thanks,
Frank
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Old 07-06-2010, 22:36   #7
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The pad helps control vibrations from the barrel which affects the barrel harmonics, which affects accuracy.
You can experiment with different thicknesses of pads put near the end of the barrel.
You can move them to try and find the sweet spot.
It can help with any kind of stock, you can try it without any pads at all and see how it works, then add a pad to see if it makes a difference. If you have a carbine, leave the forend ring off so the barrel does not hit it.
If you find something that works, open up the hole in the ring to clear the barrel.

John K

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Old 07-08-2010, 08:40   #8
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I can't believe I haven't been visiting this sight! I just popped in and found your thread here and it looks like a great way to ring out the accuracy inherent in the 10/22. I am working on a "stealth" carbine Superstock and will give this a shot on a beat up birch stock. It already turns heads at the range when I break it out and shoot sub 1/2" groups. "just another average 10/22" until I let someone shoot it!
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Old 07-10-2010, 21:35   #9
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I've got a freek barrel on my carbine, I did the mods you saw and and a trigger job, best group with match ammo .343". It shoots the cheap Rem gold jacket less than .75"
It's a shooter. I just had a really good muzzle re cut and put on a limb saver de resonator, can't ait to try it.
I also added a 4 x 12 scope, had a 3 x 9 power scope before.
You can get custom barrels that look like stock one's or get one's that have had a Bentz chamber cut in them.
I think the new custom barrel would be the way to go, some Ruger barrels are pretty rough inside, some are better. It's a crap shoot as to what you get. I think we both got pretty good barrels, some are not so lucky and are lucky to hold a 1 1/2" group at best under ideal conditions with match ammo.

John K

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Old 07-25-2010, 11:08   #10
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Originally Posted by arga View Post
I followed your link over from rimfire central and appreciate all the information you're providing. I have to admit, though, that much has been beyond me. I am taking your advice and ordering the aluminum guard and trigger but it will take me awhile to absorb what you've posted here. I understand the reasons behind floating the barrel but why the pad?

Do I still need to float the barrel with a synthetic stock?

Thanks,
Frank
Rugers work best wth a little up pressure on the barrel at the end of the stock. The factory stocks have a little nub there. My wood stock from Ruger had an irregular and uncentered nub. After sanding and replaceing the nub with accu-glass the rifle shoots straight and has no fliers or stringing. I like the look of the stock rifle barrel band and all. A bull barrel and custom stock would not improve goups as much as this did.
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Old 07-25-2010, 13:19   #11
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You know, with a little work as you described as well as some of the things I am working on, the Carbine can shoot with a lot of the heavy barreled 10-22's.

Your not going to shoot with one that somene has put a lot of money into, but I shoot under 1/2" on a regular basis and have shot in the .3's when conditions were perfect.

The idea or a Carbine outshooting a lot of the heavy bareled 10-22's is kind of fun.

I may have the chamber modification done on the stock barrel, it cost's about $100.00, but most people think the group improvement is worth it.
I've also thought about buying a new match quality barrel with the stock taper with the Bentz chamber, but that's about $200.00.
I may save that for another time.

Check out the post I'm going to do on Que's bolt mods. It's worth the $40.00.

Best Regards, John K
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Old 08-09-2010, 15:54   #12
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arga, Let me give you some "good" advice from a long time gunsmith. The Ruger 10-22 is not a Target Grade Winchester Model 52 and was never meant to be by Bill Ruger. It was meant to be a plinker and small game getter out to 50 to 75 yards. That it does well right out of the box "stock". You do not need to float barrels or put in barrel pads to get it to do what you bought it for. Don't get "sucked" in like others! What you really want to do is put a Power Custom hammer/sear kit in it to get the trigger down to a nice 2.5 to 3.5 lb pull, a power custom extractor and a bolt buffer. If you really want to get fancy, a Power Custom Automatic Bolt Release. You can do all this yourself. Top it off with a nice 1" Tasco 4 power scope and you'll have a .22 rifle that will last you a lifetime trouble free. Let's get real here. If you drool over the catalogs, you can spend a couple thousand dollars outfitting a 10-22 and have absolutely no better rifle and wondering how to recover your "investment". The barrel vibrations in a .22 rimfire are negligible for the average hunter/shooter. Anybody who tells you different simply doesn't know what they are talking about. They have been reading too many gun magazines! The 10-22 is not a 4000 foot per second hi-power rifle! If you want a "one hole" .22 rimfire then you want to get into the "bench rest" game. Here is the "history" on this nonsense. It all started with the Colt 1911. Everyone wanted it to do what John Browning "did not" design it to do. So the experimenting started and pretty soon with the "help" of the gun writers, all these aftermarket companies flooded the market with the latest gizmos and gadgets that would turn your 1911 into a world beater. Granted some of these aftermarket parts do enhance accuracy and reliability with other than "ball" ammo. Now of course, we have a 1911 "monster" out of control and everybody thinking they won't be able to shoot their 1911 unless they have at least $3500 into it!. Then came the AR-15 "monster" down the same road. Now we have the Ruger 10-22 "monster" apparently in high gear and sucking the life right out of your wallet! Take my advice and you'll be happy you did and if you ever decide to sell "your" rifle, will probably be able to recover your investment...............................Dick

Last edited by pinecone; 08-09-2010 at 16:15. Reason: Additional info
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Old 08-09-2010, 20:41   #13
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I appreciate the advice, Pinecone. I do tend to get carried away with projects like this. That said, some of the advice that dakc2 is giving is fairly inexpensive and I've already learned a few things about barrel harmonics I didn't know before. Just about everything is a learning experience for me right now.
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Old 08-13-2010, 20:53   #14
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0.0425 is the correct headspace for a 10/22, and yes it does help, more than people realize. Get ya bolt profiled, firing pin - pinned and headspaced. Que does the best value bolt job around with great work and service. OR buy a kidd bolt for 99bucks and sell your stock one, it works out around 20 bucks more the kidd one after ya sell your stock one. Que or kidd is the only two ways to go.

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Old 08-14-2010, 23:47   #15
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.0425 is too little, I've measured a lot of 22 lr rims and many are thicker, none have been .0425. You'll get away with it most of the time, but a little bit of crud around the inide corner of the bolt and you could have a slam fire.
That's why most people keep it at .043". This is really very little difference and I doubt you would see any accuracy improvement. Just my opinion.

I agree with pinecone, too many people throw all kinds of money at the 10-22 trying to make a match gun out of it.

My carbine, I did a trigger job, got rid of the plastic because I hate plastic, added a couple of shims, freefloated and made a couple of adjustable pads. It was meant to be a cheap project. Once I saw how well it shot, and being a retired GS who likes to tinker, I thought I'd see what I could do at almost no cost. I thought about a few other things but quickly dismissed the thoughts.
It did not cost a fortune and shoots plenty well for what it is. It shot a best 5 shot group of .370" (might have been a little smaller, I don't exactly remember, that's why I just claim .370") at 50 yds. I got a freek barrel. It really shoots.
If I want a target gun, I can get one for less than a tricked out 10-22 by looking around. No bull barrel, fancy stock or re worked stock barrel, no glitz at all. I did have the bolt done by Q, but that was after shooting the tight groups, for $40.00 returned it was worth him doing it. I not longer have a surface grinder and never did have an EDM machine.

I think a lot of the tricked out 10-22's comes down to mine is bigger than yours. If you want to play that game, it's you money. It's not much different with the AR 15 crowd.
I just bought a new Savage MKII. I'm going to re crown the barrel, bed the action, do a little work in the chamber and work on the trigger.
No need for aftermarket parts except for trigger shims, but I could make them myself.
It shot in the low.4's out of the box. No doubt it will not be a one hole gun, but will shoot better when done. Depends on how good the barrel is for one thing. If I'm in the .3" range, I'm plenty happy.
The Savage is a quality gun made from first class material. I do not plan on ever buying another new Ruger. I'll get a minty older one if I want one.
This is my opinion, but I've seen too many guns come from Ruger that should have gone back for repair before being box.
I bought a Mini Tac about the same time. It had two major things wrong and one minor one.
I talked with the CEO, head engineer and the guy that oversee's the operations on the floor and got stroked by all of them.
It's just my opinion, but when all three tell you all guns are fired about 6 to 10rounds to accuracy test and proof fired and mine would not eject a cartridge when fired, there is a QC problem if they even have have QC. I've seen pics and horror stories, more guns that would not fire from the box. I researched and will never buy another new Ruger. Sure some are fine, but not for me.
I've worked on hundreds of guns in my lifetime and know what a decent gun is. No new gun is perfect, but there is no excuse for what I have been seeing lately. I think they are putting most of thir time in their new AR, and those are a dime a dozen. Whoever redesigned the new Mini sure did a lousy job, they don't shoot much if any better than the old one's, just don't string shots quite as bad. All of this is just my opinion, do what you want.
And don't even get me started on the $2500 .45 semi auto's.

Best Regards, John K

Last edited by dkac2; 08-15-2010 at 00:09.
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Old 08-15-2010, 06:39   #16
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hmm

Would get away with it most of the time. Ive shot around 50,000 rounds using anything from bulk including rem bulk dirty stuff to mach ammo and never had a slamfire using 0.0425, and i can shoot upto 500 rounds in one outing. I guess i must be wrong, and Kidd, and Que, and the many 1000s who want the best out of our guns. The bolt should be cleaned after every range trip. We are talking about acuracy and not hunting or plinking. I think if you do have slamfires it because the firing pin has not been spaced correctly also. You should not alter bolt headspace without checking and altering the firing pin protrusion.

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Old 08-15-2010, 23:15   #17
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Agreed, but you will find few gunsmiths that will go below .043".
I know the one Q did for me was just a little over that.
The reason I posted is that people without experience will try for less than .043" and sometimes end up with much less and most gunsmiths are a little liability shy these days. Most I have seen advertised won't go under .043", those that do advertise less usually don't go quite that low.
I'm sure that you have had zero problems and knew I would be hearing from you.
Most gunsmiths like to err slightly on the side of safety. Not everyone is as qualified as you and I've seen many 10-22's that I sware have never been cleaned.
I know it works for you, I just like to avoid problems, I've seen more than a few cut on a band sander, crooked and less than minimum. It happens a lot more than you would think.
I really wanted .043, but got .045" from Q and I understand why. I'm not going to send it back to him, I'm not match shooting and know it will be beter than the .051" it was at.
Hope you understand, most are not at your level. You are not wrong for yourself and other experienced 10-22 shooters, but are for others who just shoot and do not take care of their rifles or try to do it themselves and mess it up. Good thing bolts are cheap and available, because I've replaced more than a few that were down right dangerous.
While I have measured with a micrometer depth guage very carefully about 5 bolts done by gunsmiths advertising .043", all but one was slightly over what they advertised. So I do think a lot of smiths are a little gunshy and with good reason. In todays climent, the people will hang you out to dry if they get the chance.
Take the guy that you surface grind his bolt to .0425", he thinks that more is better, so he gets out a knife sharpening stone and removes another .005" from the bolt.
He gets a slam fire, hits his brother. As a gunsmith, the guy is going to lie and you being the last professional with your hands in a gun are going to get hammered.
The bigger shops can afford liability insurance, but it costs so much today, I had to go without. That is why I was twice as careful and I'll bet I was far from the only smith in this position (I'm retired now). I documented every safety check that I did on every gun I worked on and it included trigger pull. FP protrusion and all the other particular checks for that type of firearm, and I really did them. The sheet then went into a file in hopes of giving me a little cover if I got a law suite. I would even take a picture of a modified bolt face on a 10-22 or any centerfire or any other rifle I modified the bolt face, print it out and ad it to the sheet.
You have to be that paranoid today. It's a darn shame, but everyone (Most) are looking for a quick buck and I didn't want to loose my home and trucks to some idiot.

Best regards, John K

Last edited by dkac2; 08-15-2010 at 23:40.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:12   #18
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lol

Totaly agree with the above. Its sad it thats way. Thats why even people Ruger will turn the gun back to stock and remove custom parts etc, on a warranty repair. I have a milling machine and laith etc at home otherwise i would never do it myself.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:48   #19
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I have access to a fully equiped gunsmithing shop which is really fantastic.
He does not have a surface grinder or a EDM machine which is why Q got my bolt. I still could have done it, but for $40. it was not worth doing myself.

I'm glad you understand my post. As a retired gunsmith. I've seen things done that would curl streight hair.
That's were it becomes tough. You give people info such as you did, and you are totally right. Problem is the guy who tries to do it without experience or the proper equipment.
For that reason, When it comes to things like headspace or trigger work, I may give some info, but suggest thhat unless they really know what they are doing that they have there work checked by a good gunsmith.
I've seen some pretty badly blown up firearms and some injuries, so I tend to be careful on some subjects.
Others I give out freely because the person is not going to get hurt if they mess it up.
It's a fine line sometimes.
Most people have common sence, others none.

My Best To You, John K
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Old 08-21-2010, 16:24   #20
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ok

Ok Im a little worried here. First the correct headspace to aim for is .0425. One thing im worried about is bringing this subject up. NEVER should this be said without also highlighting the importance of the firing pin protrusion which the correct measurment should be .035. Forgetting to mention this is a huge mistake. Possibly causing someone HARM and could cause the gun to AUTOFIRE, again possibly causing harm to themselves and people around them. By posting things about headspace etc, you should know that people are going to try it, and then forgetting to mention VITAL information such as the pin protrusion is a HUGE NO NO. Firing pins MUST be checked and adjusted if any headspacing is to be done REGARDLESS of the measurement used.
Not checking could, and in alot of cases cause slamfires. Please If anybody is going to read this pay attention to detail and check the firing pin protrusion.

You say you didnt do it yourself because the shop you have use of does not have a SURFACE GRINDER. As Posted above.

THESE are your own words that you yourself posted, on another thread under (New 22 Carbine Test)

"I know how to do all of the mods and have all the equipment needed.
A lathe, mill, surface grinder, you name it, it's at the shop".

See anything on there that shouldnt be, maybe a surface grinder.
There is a rabit loose somewhere.

I hope the MODS remove all of this thread as i see it as being a possible risk causing harm to people because of inaccurate and incorrect information.
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Old 08-22-2010, 16:38   #21
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Originally Posted by burkey1000 View Post
Ok Im a little worried here. First the correct headspace to aim for is .0425. One thing im worried about is bringing this subject up. NEVER should this be said without also highlighting the importance of the firing pin protrusion which the correct measurment should be .035. Forgetting to mention this is a huge mistake. Possibly causing someone HARM and could cause the gun to AUTOFIRE, again possibly causing harm to themselves and people around them. By posting things about headspace etc, you should know that people are going to try it, and then forgetting to mention VITAL information such as the pin protrusion is a HUGE NO NO. Firing pins MUST be checked and adjusted if any headspacing is to be done REGARDLESS of the measurement used.
Not checking could, and in alot of cases cause slamfires. Please If anybody is going to read this pay attention to detail and check the firing pin protrusion.

You say you didnt do it yourself because the shop you have use of does not have a SURFACE GRINDER. As Posted above.

THESE are your own words that you yourself posted, on another thread under (New 22 Carbine Test)

"I know how to do all of the mods and have all the equipment needed.
A lathe, mill, surface grinder, you name it, it's at the shop".

See anything on there that shouldnt be, maybe a surface grinder.
There is a rabit loose somewhere.

I hope the MODS remove all of this thread as i see it as being a possible risk causing harm to people because of inaccurate and incorrect information.
As I had my bolt done by someone else, I didn't mention FP protrusion.

Had it been a how to do it post, it would have been included.
I checked the FP protrusion on the bolt I got back from "Q" and it was perfect, I highly reccomend "Q" to do bolt work, he does them right and at a great price. You may want to check your bolt when you get it back just to insure that no mistakes were made.
That's why I checked mine and it was perfect. "Q" is the man to go to for bolt modifications.

Your post saying that .0425" HS on the bolt did not mention checking the headspace, so maybe you should be more careful.
We all need to be careful when doing any kind of work that involves headspace. It is of vital importance.

Best Regards, John k

Last edited by dkac2; 08-22-2010 at 16:43.
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Old 08-22-2010, 17:53   #22
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Oh not again

Ok Lets try this one more time. My post is very plain and simple.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE POST ABOVE.
"First the correct headspace to aim for is .0425"

I THEN WROTE EXACTLY THIS
" NEVER should this be said without also highlighting the importance of the firing pin protrusion which the correct measurment should be .035"

So how does you reply fit in what i wrote. John im not looking to put anyone down, do not twist my words around. Where the heck do you get that i mention headspace. IF YOU ARE REDUCING HEADSPACE WOULD YOU NOT MEASURE IT, WOULD YOU JUST GRIND IT AND HOPE FOR THE BEST. THATS WHY I GIVE THE 0.0425.

Im sorry John i dont come on here to play games with people but im afraid you realy are not making any sense at all.

Of course your firing pin was ok when you got it back from Que he checks and adjusts it as needed to the correct protrusion.

Im sure you will post something after this to get the last word and try and twist what i have just said AGAIN.

OH THEN AGAIN YOU COULD JUST DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD.
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:45   #23
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Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
arga, Let me give you some "good" advice from a long time gunsmith. The Ruger 10-22 is not a Target Grade Winchester Model 52 and was never meant to be by Bill Ruger. It was meant to be a plinker and small game getter out to 50 to 75 yards. That it does well right out of the box "stock". You do not need to float barrels or put in barrel pads to get it to do what you bought it for. Don't get "sucked" in like others! What you really want to do is put a Power Custom hammer/sear kit in it to get the trigger down to a nice 2.5 to 3.5 lb pull, a power custom extractor and a bolt buffer. If you really want to get fancy, a Power Custom Automatic Bolt Release. You can do all this yourself. Top it off with a nice 1" Tasco 4 power scope and you'll have a .22 rifle that will last you a lifetime trouble free. Let's get real here. If you drool over the catalogs, you can spend a couple thousand dollars outfitting a 10-22 and have absolutely no better rifle and wondering how to recover your "investment". The barrel vibrations in a .22 rimfire are negligible for the average hunter/shooter. Anybody who tells you different simply doesn't know what they are talking about. They have been reading too many gun magazines! The 10-22 is not a 4000 foot per second hi-power rifle! If you want a "one hole" .22 rimfire then you want to get into the "bench rest" game. Here is the "history" on this nonsense. It all started with the Colt 1911. Everyone wanted it to do what John Browning "did not" design it to do. So the experimenting started and pretty soon with the "help" of the gun writers, all these aftermarket companies flooded the market with the latest gizmos and gadgets that would turn your 1911 into a world beater. Granted some of these aftermarket parts do enhance accuracy and reliability with other than "ball" ammo. Now of course, we have a 1911 "monster" out of control and everybody thinking they won't be able to shoot their 1911 unless they have at least $3500 into it!. Then came the AR-15 "monster" down the same road. Now we have the Ruger 10-22 "monster" apparently in high gear and sucking the life right out of your wallet! Take my advice and you'll be happy you did and if you ever decide to sell "your" rifle, will probably be able to recover your investment...............................Dick
I put about $40 into my carbine shooter project. Stock bedding kit and various sandpapers.Thats it. It turned a tentstake from the factory that couldn't be sighted into an moa shooter. No need to complain about sloppy factorys with sham QC putting out just a cheap .22. Just knuckle down and bed the action as you would any rifle in your collection. Sweat and polish your trigger group and bolt til it resembles the look of a gun worth owning. This little effort reveals a straight shooter that is fine enough to take the game it was designed for and not be so nice or heavy to be left behind and useless. It also becomes more valuble as a heirloom, especially if the work is done with your heirs.

How much did you spend on your sponsers products? Sounds like several hundred.
OneHitWonder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 15:11   #24
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Originally Posted by burkey1000 View Post
Ok Lets try this one more time. My post is very plain and simple.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN THE POST ABOVE.
"First the correct headspace to aim for is .0425"

I THEN WROTE EXACTLY THIS
" NEVER should this be said without also highlighting the importance of the firing pin protrusion which the correct measurment should be .035"

So how does you reply fit in what i wrote. John im not looking to put anyone down, do not twist my words around. Where the heck do you get that i mention headspace. IF YOU ARE REDUCING HEADSPACE WOULD YOU NOT MEASURE IT, WOULD YOU JUST GRIND IT AND HOPE FOR THE BEST. THATS WHY I GIVE THE 0.0425.

Im sorry John i dont come on here to play games with people but im afraid you realy are not making any sense at all.

Of course your firing pin was ok when you got it back from Que he checks and adjusts it as needed to the correct protrusion.

Im sure you will post something after this to get the last word and try and twist what i have just said AGAIN.

OH THEN AGAIN YOU COULD JUST DELETE THE WHOLE THREAD.
I did go back and re read your post. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Best Regards, John K
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