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Old 05-03-2011, 19:30   #1
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.308 Semi question

Ok, I've seen countless threads about this. But my question is a little different. I've always liked the FAL, but I've already got a G3 clone. Both .308, but which is a more reliable and more accurate rifle? Ergos, fun and ease of loading are factors as well. Recoil doesn't bother me, I'm padded, but I don't want the metal fatigued by the horrendous slamming like in my G3.
My primary use is at the range, I don't hunt. I have no issues with my clone, but it's a cobby piece of metal; gross looking welds, etc.
Actually I have several rifles that I am parting with because I just don't want to bring 15 rifles to the range 4x per year because I want them all to be used. I would like a nice rifle that I can take just 1 of and have a great time and work it in and learn it, instead of kind of learning 15 different rifles quirks.
Please help!
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Old 05-03-2011, 21:54   #2
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I've owned both and the FAL has better ergonomics for me as a lefty plus if you reload it doesn't damage the cases as much. Having said all that The .308 I kept is an M1A as it beats the FAL for trigger, ergonomics and accuracy.
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Old 05-03-2011, 23:47   #3
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+1 on the M1A I cant miss with my M1A the FAL is another story I cant hit consistently with them, the best way I can explain it think 308 win cal AK-47
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:03   #4
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Originally Posted by fnpaulie View Post
Ok, I've seen countless threads about this. But my question is a little different. I've always liked the FAL, but I've already got a G3 clone. Both .308, but which is a more reliable and more accurate rifle?
What your asking is like asking which is the better truck - ford, dodge, chevy or toyota. Depending on "who" you ask, your going to get a different answer.

Personally, I think it boils down to how much money you want to spend. When I was looking at buying a 308 rifle, the M1A was out of my price range.

The PRT-91 probably has the lowest cost of ownership, as the magazines are dirt cheap. Awhile back a buddy of mine found a bunch of PTR-91 mags for $1 each.

The FN/FAL magazines cost about $20 each.

Overall, I prefer the M1A or the FN/FAL over the PTR-91. But if someone handed me any of those 3 rifles, and said "here ya go", I would not be disappointed.

Video about my DS Arms SA58 - YouTube - Survival Rifle - DS Arms SA58 FAL Overview
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:35   #5
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Price is a factor. The M1A is basically out because of this. But maybe not...
What I had as an idea for price is under $1300. I've seen all of these for less than that price but am I getting a lesser rifle for cost?
I spent about $450 a few years back for my Hesse Rx PTR91/G3 clone (I never know which to call it) and am a little sorry I spent a little less than a better clone. I'm not spending the $3k plus for a real HK, nor am I spending that on a full fledged FAL. The clones are all mostly good for the money, but I'm clearing out to make room for more appropriate items that I won't need or want to replace in 5 years.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:49   #6
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The welds on my rifle are ugly, not bad but ugly. It performs well after I replaced the stamped trigger group with milled German pieces. And replaced the bolt carrier with a German one, as well as some other small things just to get it to shoot and not jam. Lots of problems up front but now have a solid performing rifle that is consistently off the mark. I use Kentucky Windage, but would like to not have to.

As for the AK reference, I certainly get that. I love my AK for what it is and understand what it is. I don't expect it to be a 200yd sub MOA item, but what it does is make me smile every time I use it. But it was $300 and I get that.

This is what I've got now:
K98 - nice, comfortable and clean and performs as it was designed to do,
FN49 - Beautiful and as above rifle,
WASR - as stated in above paragraph, cheap and effective,
Yugo 59/66 - ok as is, working on it - wish it had no grenade launcher but price was right,
K31 - very nice, accurate and somewhat unique,

possibly getting rid of:
G3- different from what I see at the range, powerful rifle that lets you know you're holding a real weapon - the people to my right know too - but not great, inaccurate,
Mini 14 SS Ranch - Clean, cheap ammo, easy maintenance but sadly inaccurate,
MAS 49/56 - cool factor is high, but issues with finding ammo and a dark bore,

I put these last ones not to try to sell them but to give an example of what I have and why I'm not happy with them.
What I'd like to have is something that isn't what I've got already and I don't have to worry about for reasons posted above.
Did I get all of that right? Trying to type as fast as I think isn't easy, and making it make sense is even tougher.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:51   #7
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Originally Posted by fnpaulie View Post
s under $1300. I've seen all of these for less than that price but am I getting a lesser rifle for cost?
You should be able to get a good DS Arms SA58 or a PTR-91 for that price
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:17   #8
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the HK's trigger pull SUCKS and there's no way to fix it, because it's blowback operated. so the bolt is very heavy and the recoil springs are quite strong. Williams Trigger Specialties offers a set trigger for the HK, for like $200 the last I checked, which makes your FIRST shot (only) a nice pull, but once the bolt cycles, the trigger pull is the some old heavy, creepy crap, until you "set" the trigger again. This is done by applying the safety, pulling the trigger and then disengaging the saftey. It's not fast and I don't consider it to be safe, either. I'd look for a good, used Remington M748, $400 or so, and just settle for a few 10 rd mags. If the shtf, you'll want a 223 AR-15 anyway, for the lightweight of the ammo and the rifle, and the ready availability of ammo and the .22lr conversion unit.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:40   #9
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"...you'll want a 223 AR-15 anyway..."


Nope, some of us don't.

The .223/AR 15 isn't the universal answer. Some of us see value in the .30 caliber.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:49   #10
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What is the difference between the STG58 and the Imbel?
I think I'm leaning away from the M1A.

1 of the things that I didn't like about an AR variant that I shot in .308 is that it had very little recoil. It felt like a toy a little. The G3 most definitely does NOT feel that way, I like that.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:53   #11
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Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
"...you'll want a 223 AR-15 anyway..."


Nope, some of us don't.

The .223/AR 15 isn't the universal answer. Some of us see value in the .30 caliber.
I actually am looking to sell my Mini 14 also because it's a .223. Yes, cheap ammo, but not my favorite round. Sure the argument has been made that ballistically ... yada yada yada...
Nope, give me the larger calibers all day long. It's good to have variety, but I don't like it. If I'm going to shoot .22, I'll get a Ruger 10/22.
My favorite is the 8mm, but ammo isn't cheap. My first choice is actually the M76 over all of these, but to find a good one is rare.
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Old 05-04-2011, 14:56   #12
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Another option is to look for a Norinco M14 clone and then have the bolt replaced with a USGI one. The Norinco has a forged reciever but their bolts are soft and will lose headspace. There's one for sale at Snappy's gunstore in Kalispell right now for $900.00. They often can be found at larger gunshows at lower costs than a M1A.
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Old 05-04-2011, 23:24   #13
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I have been in your shoes before. Owned several different rifles, and ended up selling off the ones that I didnt like and/or served no purpose. ( Example: I have no use for an AR15, Mini14, or any other rifle chambered in 5.5bmm, so I sold them all off to fund others.)

I would recommend that you get a hold of a FAL, M1A, and any other rifle your interested in. Find out which type feels right for you. Better yet.... see about finding a few that you can put a few rds through.

If it turns out to be an M1A, then that is the rifle I would go with if I were you.

If this is to be a rifle to replace a whole slew of others, then I would not settle for something just because it cost less.

11B
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:29   #14
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Ive been through alot of rifles because they were economical ways into a purpose rifle and in the long run I ended up buying the expensive ones anyway. simply because those bargain guns left a lot to be desired. save your money and buy the good one!!
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:14   #15
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To the last 2 posts, that is where I am exactly! I am looking for a rifle that will be a good one for years to come and might cost a bit more now, but will pay for itself in les frustration and headache in the future.
The M1A is a bit too high for me, but I like the FAL look. Can anyone indicate the difference between the Imbel and the STG58 if any at all? Also, are there any idiosyncrasies with the FAL? Gas adjustment?
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Old 05-07-2011, 19:34   #16
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I suppose you are not speaking of the PSG-1 trigger pack, that is in fact very good, and workable in the hk91. I believe the msg 90 is also an improvement and swapable. The fact that is blowback operated is not related, and technically it is rollerlocked and recoil operated.

Originally Posted by tap View Post
the HK's trigger pull SUCKS and there's no way to fix it, because it's blowback operated. so the bolt is very heavy and the recoil springs are quite strong. Williams Trigger Specialties offers a set trigger for the HK, for like $200 the last I checked, which makes your FIRST shot (only) a nice pull, but once the bolt cycles, the trigger pull is the some old heavy, creepy crap, until you "set" the trigger again. This is done by applying the safety, pulling the trigger and then disengaging the saftey. It's not fast and I don't consider it to be safe, either. I'd look for a good, used Remington M748, $400 or so, and just settle for a few 10 rd mags. If the shtf, you'll want a 223 AR-15 anyway, for the lightweight of the ammo and the rifle, and the ready availability of ammo and the .22lr conversion unit.
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Old 05-08-2011, 03:55   #17
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I've decided on an FAL. As some might have seen in my other thread, I am also looking at the Yugoslavian M76 just because it's an awesome rifle.
But back to this FAL. DSA has some very nice ones to offer. I'm looking at the Imbel FAL with 21" barrel. Just out of curiosity, why would the longer barrel cost less on the STG58 model from DSA?
Any thoughts on barrel length pro vs. con?
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:44   #18
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u will "see value" in 308, all right, after you run out of it and 223 ammo is still everywhere! :-) Also, you can't carry more than about 100 rds of it, along with steel mags, a 9 lb rifle, a 1.5 lb steel scope and mount, a 1 lb bipod and sling setup, and the 30-40 lbs of OTHER survival gear needed for shtf. Each 20 rd steel mag, full of 150 gr 308 ball ammo, weighs 1.5 lbs, guys. there just aint that much use for the extra power of the 308. it just aint that hard to get within 200 yds of deer or pronghorn and take them with chest hit and 223 Nosler partition softpoints. Ditto elk and moose and 75 yd head shots. A moose is 800 lbs of meat, man, enough for a family for a year, if also fishing, using traps for small stuff, and giving your people the 50% plant diet necessary for health. Ditto 2 elk. If you can't get within 75 of a couple of critters per year, you are one lame "hunter", boyo.

Also, there are far more cattle and horses than elk or moose, and far more hogs and sheep than deer, and you can take them with a bolo and a spear, with snares, with a field made bow or a surgical tubing "bow", or with a quiet 22 rifle. So the "need" for the 308 is only in your head.
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Old 05-09-2011, 14:50   #19
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Tap;

You make a lot of assumptions about other posters. Why would you assume I or anyone else has to run out of .308? In the event of a societal breakdown I don't "need" to go anywhere. I'm already there. I don't choose to scope my .308 at all and feel that bi-pods are only so much contemptible baggage. If 20 rounds of .308 in a magazine is too heavy for your tastes, so what. You don't have to tote it.

Have you personally done all this stuff that you say the .223 can do? How many deer and antelope have you personally taken? Elk and moose?

It isn't all about survival all the time. The .223 is no more special than any of a host of other light cartridges that may either be pressed into service to take large animals or be used for personal self defense. I have an ancient Winchester Model 1892 rifle chambered for the .32-20. It too could take all manner of big game or serve for self-defense with the right shot placement. So the .223 isn't really that big a deal.

I've seen deer successfully taken with the .223 though I haven't done it personally. I have shot deer with a .220 Swift, a cartridge which has it all over your middle-of-the-road .223 if .22 center fires is your thing.

The thread is about .308 though so why are you on here waxing "eloquent" about the .223? Why are you so down on .308 that you feel the need to bash it in particular?

I've determined that I "need" a .308 so I have one. You apparently really feel you "need" a .223. Everyone on the forum isn't rushing to please you and your notions.

Not too many moose running around here in west central Texas for me to get my 800 lbs. of meat.
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Old 05-09-2011, 18:53   #20
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Relax bmc - Tap just ran out of redbull and he's cranky, cause his mom heard some suspicious fapping sounds coming from his basement room and she took away all his AR 15 fanboi magazines because he keeps staining his sheets
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Old 05-09-2011, 22:50   #21
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I used a bolo tie on a cow once, it looked sharp. I just wished it had a better hat.
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Old 05-09-2011, 22:54   #22
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Originally Posted by derksquad View Post
I used a bolo tie on a cow once, it looked sharp. I just wished it had a better hat.
here you go

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Old 05-10-2011, 21:27   #23
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Originally Posted by Mr. Snuffalupagus View Post
here you go

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Old 05-11-2011, 07:24   #24
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You might be able to come up with a Garand in .308, I know it doesn't hold as much ammo, and may be a little longer, but it will get the job done.
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Old 05-11-2011, 14:08   #25
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Running through the woods with bandoleers was never an issue for me and I hope that remains the case. If I'm in a situation where I'm forced to do so I'll not be concerned with a few pounds difference.
But BMC is dead on. I could really care less about .223 in this respect. Maybe it's lighter, maybe more prevalent, maybe even cheaper. Don't care what government agency is scrubbing off the internet about the ballistics of .223 and how it cavitates through ballistic gelatin. (I saw that on this forum somewhere)
I'm looking for a mighty fine .308 and just trying to narrow it down to which one.
Now, for the more important issue at hand... That is one sharp looking bull.
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