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Old 03-13-2010, 22:37   #1
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ATF claims airsoft can be made to fire live ammo full auto

This video is about an ATF raid on an airsoft dealer. The ATF agent says, "With minimal work, this (he's holding a toy AR) can be converted into a machine gun." And watch the "expert" try to insert the magazine backwards at 1:17.

A debate is raging on another forum (populated by internet commando types) who insist the agent is telling the truth.

What say ye?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rEuT...layer_embedded
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Old 03-14-2010, 00:00   #2
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After some sleuthing I learned that airsoft got into the fray.

http://www.airsoftoutletnw.com/index...-Standard.html

In proper CBP fashion Suliveras has also failed to provide any sort of evidence to prove his point that these Airsoft replicas could be converted to shoot a real round. According to this article on the CBP website Suliveras and his boys found that:

"[replacing the] internal components with original machinegun components could be accomplished within a short period of time, thus rendering the rifles capable of firing live ammunition."

This statement that these replicas could shoot live ammo with a few internal changes alone is absolutely ludicrous! I doubt these CBP agents, let alone ATF agents, bothered to notice that these Airsoft replicas lack feed ramps to load real ammunition; so it would be physically impossible if someone wanted to use the WE TTI M4 as a whole unit to shoot live ammo. I'm not a machinist, but I can assume that it takes a little longer than "a short period of time" to mill a precise feed ramp for an aluminum barrel that doubtingly could withstand the 62,366 psi that a 5.56mm NATO round can put off. As a side note, the average velocity of a 5.56mm NATO round is 940 meters/sec, the average velocity of one of these Airsoft replicas is 137 meters/sec. To me that doesn't sound like the Airsoft M4 could handle firing any sort of real ammunition.


Now we at Airsoft Outlet Northwest, being the rational individuals we are, went out and had a gunsmith check the true compatibility of these replicas and found the following information:

The WE TTI M4's lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15's operation
The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4

The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work

The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn't operable with the WE TTI lower.

So essentially these Airsoft replicas cannot even operate an AR15 trigger pack without heavy modification with a precise tooling system operated by someone who knows the specific measurements to drill and tap the WE TTI lower receiver.

To me this doesn't sound like it's feasible within "a short period of time".
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:35   #3
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Hey-it's not like these governmental types have enough to do.......what with all of the terrorists being all caught by now
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:29   #4
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careful kid, you'll shoot yer' eye out with that thing!!!
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:13   #5
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If ATF/CBP is saying airsoft can be made to fire real ammunition, someone's crashed too many times without their helmet. The innards bear no resemblance whatsoever to real firearms and the magazines are made to feed little 6mm spheres, not cartridges. Sounds like someone at ATF/CBP was fantasizing, did something really lame-brained, and the agency is now doing damage control.
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Old 03-14-2010, 17:06   #6
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Hell, I can turn a sewing machine into a full auto firearm, it dont prove that it's a gun that sews buttons!
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Old 03-14-2010, 17:53   #7
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Somebody on another forum posted these pics. I still say they're just pictures, not proof. What do you think?





BTW, uppers are interchangeable:
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Old 03-14-2010, 19:24   #8
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Can we lock this thread? These pics are of a Colt M-4 and a Licensed overseas production M-4. this is total BS!
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Old 03-14-2010, 19:25   #9
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Just off the top of my head, I'd say someone at BAFTE has been smoking the evidence.
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Old 03-14-2010, 22:07   #10
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I live a couple of blocks from Brad, who owns the shop that they confiscated the airsoft guns from. There is no way that those guns could handle the pressures or the repeated firing even if someone was able to make the things somehow function. You just got to shake your head sometimes, too many late night reruns of the A Team.
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Old 03-15-2010, 18:56   #11
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The Inokatsu M4 is an air soft gun, not a "Licensed overseas production M-4". Unfortunately, when they decided to make their gun, they used aluminum, and made it 1:1 scale to a real M4. All you would have to do, is get an M-16 parts kit, and the Inokatsu M4 lower, and you have a machinegun.

The main problem is that they made their airsoft guns 1:1 scale. All other manufacturers of airsoft guns make them a different scale if they are to be as realistic as the Inokatsu is.
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Old 03-15-2010, 23:29   #12
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I would reiterate: The internal construction and structure of an airsoft gun, with battery-powered action, normally a motor-driven spring-piston mechanism, prohibits conversion, easy or difficult, into an actual working machine gun. The receivers are not drilled in the proper locations nor the right diameters nor are they correct internal dimensions for actual AR parts to be installed, the barrel is thin and small, designed only to withstand a few hundred pounds of air pressure at the most, and totally lacks any locking arrangement to contain a real cartridge's gas pressure. Airsoft magazines are also slightly different dimensions than the real deal. They are two different animals and would not be allowed into the country if conversion were as easy as you allege. Airsoft guns are all slightly different from each other in various locations, and many are pretty close to full size compared to the weapons they are modeled after. Before posting I'd suggest you should know what you are talking about.
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Old 03-16-2010, 00:10   #13
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He's the only one who could do it... But Mac doesn't believe in using guns, so he has no use for an airsoft/.223 conversion.
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:45   #14
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Originally Posted by markw76 View Post
I would reiterate: The internal construction and structure of an airsoft gun, with battery-powered action, normally a motor-driven spring-piston mechanism, prohibits conversion, easy or difficult, into an actual working machine gun. The receivers are not drilled in the proper locations nor the right diameters nor are they correct internal dimensions for actual AR parts to be installed, the barrel is thin and small, designed only to withstand a few hundred pounds of air pressure at the most, and totally lacks any locking arrangement to contain a real cartridge's gas pressure. Airsoft magazines are also slightly different dimensions than the real deal. They are two different animals and would not be allowed into the country if conversion were as easy as you allege. Airsoft guns are all slightly different from each other in various locations, and many are pretty close to full size compared to the weapons they are modeled after. Before posting I'd suggest you should know what you are talking about.
The guns they are talking about are not battery powered, spring driven guns. They are referring to the gas powered guns. They ARE drilled in the correct locations and in the proper diameters for actual AR parts to be installed. You dont use the airsoft barrel, but an AR upper receiver with a proper barrel. The mag well is the proper size for an AR magazine, and locks up in the exact same way. They were allowed into the country, but are now being confiscated for being unregistered machineguns hence the reasons for the ATF raids. We are talking about one particular type of M16 airsoft gun.

This is similar to the deal with the Makarov BB guns. Maybe you should do your own research.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:45   #15
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I saw Moe, Larry and Curly turn a meat grinder into a Gatling gun one time. Does that count?
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Old 03-16-2010, 14:12   #16
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Linked or linkless sausages?
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Old 03-16-2010, 20:51   #17
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Originally Posted by Camera Man
I saw Moe, Larry and Curly turn a meat grinder into a Gatling gun one time. Does that count?
Originally Posted by Skrenos View Post
Linked or linkless sausages?
Beltfed Bratwurst@400 pounds per minute!

Considered as Delayed Explosive Ammo, over 500 pounds per minute could result in barrel overheating, which cooked sausage has undesireable ballistic qualities, with a tumbling effect, but if the edible outer casing remains intact, after the target ingests it, the processed projectile could cause internal gas expansion, leading to the delayed explosive effect...

No gun related injuries or death, only 'wasted' (and biodegradeable) ammo.

Last edited by QuixDraw; 03-16-2010 at 20:54.
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Old 03-16-2010, 21:02   #18
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Originally Posted by Skrenos View Post
The guns they are talking about are not battery powered, spring driven guns. They are referring to the gas powered guns. They ARE drilled in the correct locations and in the proper diameters for actual AR parts to be installed. You dont use the airsoft barrel, but an AR upper receiver with a proper barrel. The mag well is the proper size for an AR magazine, and locks up in the exact same way. They were allowed into the country, but are now being confiscated for being unregistered machineguns hence the reasons for the ATF raids. We are talking about one particular type of M16 airsoft gun..
Crazy Fun Stuff! I'm glad the atf found someone else to play with...
Perhaps we can join with the airsoft people & get rid of jack-booted thugs everywhere!
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Old 03-16-2010, 21:30   #19
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Death by hardened arteries.
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Old 03-16-2010, 22:31   #20
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Looked to me like the owner already compared the sizes and stated that there were minor differences in widths not allowing actual AR parts to be compatible.
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Old 03-16-2010, 22:46   #21
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That's true. If airsoft lowers were ever made so they'd accept M16 parts ATF would have been all over them and they'd never gotten into the country. Besides that, it's not high enough grade metal to hold up long.

If it were possible to put M16 fire control parts into an airsoft lower and pin on a AR upper and make a machine gun out of it, the Anarchist Cookbook type would have been all over it and there'd have been posts all over the internet about it.
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:08   #22
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I'm sure that's where the "minimal work" comes into play. So, widen the internal space with a mill, or even a dremel to get them to fit.

The AR lower takes almost no stress of firing of the gun. There have been AR lowers made out of plastic, and if you've read homegunsmith.com, some guys have made them out of bolted sheet metal on steel blocks, and one guy made one out of stamped U-shaped pieces welded together. if you took a complete AR upper and disabled the gas system (for safety), and whacked the firing pin, it would fire safely in your hands even without a lower receiver.

The 'anarchist cookbook types' arent interested in this because it's not cost effective. Why buy an Inokatsu/Western Arms/etc M4 for $600-700, when all you're getting is the lower receiver, THEN have to buy an M16 parts kit? If I wanted to break the law, I'd just buy an AR15, or piece together a cheap one for $600, then convert it to FA, instead of spending near $1300 to get an airsoft one to fire.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:33   #23
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Realistically why would ANYONE buy that EXPENSIVE airsoft gun to do what they are claiming you can do?

Personally, I believe if someone was going to make a fully automatic M4, they'll buy the cheapest lower they can find, and drill the hole. Then assemble the M-16 trigger group and sear into the gun. (Or they'll just make the drop in auto sear).
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Old 03-17-2010, 14:10   #24
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Originally Posted by Skrenos View Post
The 'anarchist cookbook types' arent interested in this because it's not cost effective. Why buy an Inokatsu/Western Arms/etc M4 for $600-700, when all you're getting is the lower receiver, THEN have to buy an M16 parts kit? If I wanted to break the law, I'd just buy an AR15, or piece together a cheap one for $600, then convert it to FA, instead of spending near $1300 to get an airsoft one to fire.
They might be interested since it would keep them off the books as having bought an AR lower. Airsoft is obviously not a reportable item to anyone since it is not a firearm, which it likely would be was it able to take M16/AR15 fire control parts or an AR upper without considerable modification.

Considering the lengths of skulduggery the ATF has gone to to entice a firearm to discharge more than one round per trigger pull, does anyone really think this would have gone on this long if that were possible?
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Old 03-17-2010, 15:32   #25
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Originally Posted by markw76 View Post
They might be interested since it would keep them off the books as having bought an AR lower. Airsoft is obviously not a reportable item to anyone since it is not a firearm, which it likely would be was it able to take M16/AR15 fire control parts or an AR upper without considerable modification.

Considering the lengths of skulduggery the ATF has gone to to entice a firearm to discharge more than one round per trigger pull, does anyone really think this would have gone on this long if that were possible?
IN TEXAS, I can go out and buy AR-15 lowers FTF with individuals and not have any paperwork. Texas does NOT register weapons. Like I said whats the point of doing all that crap to a airsoft gun when you can do it to another AR-15 lower. I do not recommend people doing this and if someone does, I hope they get caught.
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