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Old 05-14-2009, 02:37   #51
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Originally Posted by 4thSBCT View Post
AR - Jam - o - matic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JmIQXkoog8
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:59   #52
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Fantasy or not the OP asked about a shtf scenerio. In other words the worst possible situation he might find himself in. Anyone who plans for a worst case scenerio with an AR is just plan foolish.

Just because your AR has been 100% reliable while shooting on a static range doesn't mean didly squat. For those who preach moa with their reliable ARs need to understand that m16 are at best 3moa weapons and THEY malfunction.

Hk 416 and other oprod designs help out a lot.

The potential to shoot moa is important to me. My mini has sqeezed a few moa groups but is by no means a 1 moa rifle, I would say a solid 2moa. From what I've seen and heard I think the new minis have that capabilty with no tinkering and surplus ammo. Do ARs shoot moa with surplus ammo?

Like I said moa capability is nice. It means I can hit what I'm aiming at at longer ranges or more precise shots up close. It is not the end all requirement though.

A rifle doesn't make someone a rifleman
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:54   #53
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SHTF=Everything crumbles...

You need to be self sufficient, so your warranty is poo-poo. Parts availability is poo-poo. Accessories is poo-poo.

I own multiple weapons, all of which are here because their reputation says they don't quit in a fight and don't tend to break much over the long haul. Range time is confirming this for me.

SHTF, you might not even be able to keep your home, so all of the tools down in your workshop are poo-poo. You, and the weapon you take along, must be a "never give up" combo.

Also, don't forget a few cans of Gun Scrubber too. You won't be able to stop by the local gun store for a new cleaning kit as everyone "heads for the hills"...

My primary is a Benelli Nova 12 ga. My Mini will soon earn the right to stand with it. My XD-45 goes along as back up.

Function over form.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:16   #54
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The last three posters are right on the money!
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:29   #55
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The Mini-14 action seems to be more forgiving on dusty conditions and dirt in the lockup area. Most citizens won't have to worry about this so much.

I am a proponent of the Mini-14 as well as the AR and either would serve you well. The Mini is the underdog though, and doesn't get the respect it deserves, IMO, because of prior accuracy issues. I would have no problems carrying a newer Mini in a disaster situation, knowing the Garand type action is forgiving of a low maintenance schedule. The guns are tough and the new ones are even better. The Mini DOES hold its own against the AR.

Either or but no matter what you get, get common breakage parts to stow away in the event of a bad day. Buy an extra extractor, extractor spring (if applicable), firing pin, and high milegage items like that. That way, if parts aren't available, you already have them. That's what I do for the most part.

With all that said, I own (2) AR-15 guns and a new Mini-14. Any of the three are subject to callup if a bad day comes.
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:57   #56
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Originally Posted by usmcronin View Post
Fantasy or not the OP asked about a shtf scenerio. In other words the worst possible situation he might find himself in. Anyone who plans for a worst case scenerio with an AR is just plan foolish.

Just because your AR has been 100% reliable while shooting on a static range doesn't mean didly squat. For those who preach moa with their reliable ARs need to understand that m16 are at best 3moa weapons and THEY malfunction.

Hk 416 and other oprod designs help out a lot.

The potential to shoot moa is important to me. My mini has sqeezed a few moa groups but is by no means a 1 moa rifle, I would say a solid 2moa. From what I've seen and heard I think the new minis have that capabilty with no tinkering and surplus ammo. Do ARs shoot moa with surplus ammo?

Like I said moa capability is nice. It means I can hit what I'm aiming at at longer ranges or more precise shots up close. It is not the end all requirement though.

A rifle doesn't make someone a rifleman
You are correct about the OP and I gave my opinion...buy a Mini. But having 30 years experience in shooting the AR platform, in military, competition, and training (both as an instructor and student), I have no hesitation about it being a fine gun for a SHTF situation, especially in an urban environment and if that situation is a Katrina type scenario. The idea that one is going to engage in multiple and multiple rounds down range, dumping dozens magazines behind while holding back and defeating the hoards of oppressors is based on movies and not reality. And realizing the the gun will see far more range time than battle time in civilian ownership should be the prime decision, again if one is just punching holes and blasting garbage, the Mini works great. IF one is shooting past 100 yards for precision, the AR is my bet. The silly argument between AR V Mini (based on civilian usage here in the US) is conjecture. We are not in Afghanistan, we are not talking jungle warfare. We are talking urban environments and disaster situations. If it makes one feel better to have one or the other fine. Just make sure that one practices quality training and profiency. Shakespeare gives a great quote, I often think of it during the silly AR V Mini debates (check any gun forum archive), is found in Macbeth, 5. 5
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Old 05-14-2009, 13:03   #57
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Originally Posted by gossman View Post
You are correct about the OP and I gave my opinion...buy a Mini. But having 30 years experience in shooting the AR platform, in military, competition, and training (both as an instructor and student), I have no hesitation about it being a fine gun for a SHTF situation, especially in an urban environment and if that situation is a Katrina type scenario. The idea that one is going to engage in multiple and multiple rounds down range, dumping dozens magazines behind while holding back and defeating the hoards of oppressors is based on movies and not reality. And realizing the the gun will see far more range time than battle time in civilian ownership should be the prime decision, again if one is just punching holes and blasting garbage, the Mini works great. IF one is shooting past 100 yards for precision, the AR is my bet. The silly argument between AR V Mini (based on civilian usage here in the US) is conjecture. We are not in Afghanistan, we are not talking jungle warfare. We are talking urban environments and disaster situations. If it makes one feel better to have one or the other fine. Just make sure that one practices quality training and profiency. Shakespeare gives a great quote, I often think of it during the silly AR V Mini debates (check any gun forum archive), is found in Macbeth, 5. 5
You sound like you were never in combat. Your statements sure make it sound that way. If SHTF, roving gangs of thugs will be the biggest problem, so multiple target will be the norm rather than an exception.
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Old 05-14-2009, 14:37   #58
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Originally Posted by Bear 45/70 View Post
You sound like you were never in combat. Your statements sure make it sound that way. If SHTF, roving gangs of thugs will be the biggest problem, so multiple target will be the norm rather than an exception.
Sorry, just basing my opinion on statistics and study of situations like the Katrina fiasco. Never claimed to be a ninja nor firearms expert. Just a liberal naive Oregonian (according to you )who thought that reasonable discourse about reliabilities that I have experienced would be relevant. Again, discussions go down the tube because manners are subverted by cretins who are unable to practice courtesy. I am sure that those that are war weary vets like yourself understand the horrific firefights that are looming on the American horizon. And I am sure that the gun the OP buys will see far more action in the battlefields of suburbia than it ever will in just plinking. Just like all the AR's and Mini's have in the past. Wolverines!
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Old 05-14-2009, 14:43   #59
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Originally Posted by gossman View Post
Wolverines!
Great Flick!
Although I would have preferred a 460 Weatherby for the Hinds.
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Old 05-14-2009, 14:47   #60
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Originally Posted by gossman View Post
Sorry, just basing my opinion on statistics and study of situations like the Katrina fiasco. Never claimed to be a ninja nor firearms expert. Just a liberal naive Oregonian (according to you )who thought that reasonable discourse about reliabilities that I have experienced would be relevant. Again, discussions go down the tube because manners are subverted by cretins who are unable to practice courtesy. I am sure that those that are war weary vets like yourself understand the horrific firefights that are looming on the American horizon. And I am sure that the gun the OP buys will see far more action in the battlefields of suburbia than it ever will in just plinking. Just like all the AR's and Mini's have in the past. Wolverines!
So you liberal, naive Oregonian, what are you doing this Saturday the 16th. We are having a little get together, shoot and BBQ in Hoodsport, Washington. Private range and just a few guys and at least one other of you liberal, naive Oregonians. would you be available or even interested? Oh and "Wolverines!" never used even one M16/AR, all AKs.
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Old 05-14-2009, 14:56   #61
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Originally Posted by planeoldguy View Post
Great Flick!
Although I would have preferred a 460 Weatherby for the Hinds.
A lowly old Marlin 1895 in 45/70 with some 540 LFN bullets would be my choice.
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Old 05-14-2009, 14:59   #62
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Originally Posted by Bear 45/70 View Post
So you liberal, naive Oregonian, what are you doing this Saturday the 16th. We are having a little get together, shoot and BBQ in Hoodsport, Washington. Private range and just a few guys and at least one other of you liberal, naive Oregonians. would you be available or even interested? Oh and "Wolverines!" never used even one M16/AR, all AKs.
Sadly, after being gone for the past two weeks I have much to do around the home this weekend. The next is tied up with Memorial Weekend celebrations, and the next I have a "Personal Protection in the Home" class for the entire weekend, got to show other liberals how to be safe and effective. And you are correct, Red Dawn didn't use AR's, they used AK's, which I had previously suggested as perhaps being even a better choice. Would like to make it sometime if it is a honest invite (not just to hold your targets). There are few members here in the PDX area I have gotten together with for food, shooting, and pleasant conversation, we even meet for lunch on a weekly basis lot of the time.
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Old 05-14-2009, 15:03   #63
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Originally Posted by Bear 45/70 View Post
A lowly old Marlin 1895 in 45/70 with some 540 LFN bullets would be my choice.
So, how does those pumpkins launch? Not to hijack but the old Remington stock 405 loads just don't do it for me and I have yet to try any of the Leverevolutions out of my guide gun.
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Old 05-14-2009, 15:10   #64
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Originally Posted by gossman View Post
Sadly, after being gone for the past two weeks I have much to do around the home this weekend. The next is tied up with Memorial Weekend celebrations, and the next I have a "Personal Protection in the Home" class for the entire weekend, got to show other liberals how to be safe and effective. And you are correct, Red Dawn didn't use AR's, they used AK's, which I had previously suggested as perhaps being even a better choice. Would like to make it sometime if it is a honest invite (not just to hold your targets). There are few members here in the PDX area I have gotten together with for food, shooting, and pleasant conversation, we even meet for lunch on a weekly basis lot of the time.
Honest invite (I would never joke about something as important as shooting get togethers). We do shoots every 2 to 4 weeks and I will keep you in mind and give you a bunch more advance notice next time.

I have to agree that the AK or copy there of would be a better choice than either the Mini or the AR. But he is more worried about his Dad's feelings, than getting the best gun for the job.
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Old 05-14-2009, 15:17   #65
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Originally Posted by Bear 45/70 View Post
Honest invite (I would never joke about something as important as shooting get togethers). We do shoots every 2 to 4 weeks and I will keep you in mind and give you a bunch more advance notice next time.

I have to agree that the AK or copy there of would be a better choice than either the Mini or the AR. But he is more worried about his Dad's feelings, than getting the best gun for the job.
The Mini has great lines, reliability, and a hoot to shoot. Dad wouldn't be unhappy with a Mini. There are few members here that wouldn't mind coming up for a time of food and shooting.
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Old 05-14-2009, 16:13   #66
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If SHTF, roving gangs of thugs will be the biggest problem, so multiple target will be the norm rather than an exception.
Yes to the first part, but no-and-yes to the second.

Mob mentality should make it so that when faced with gunfire, the mob will move away from it. A single well-placed shot into a pre-placed cinder block or other crack-able/demonstrative target should avert such a threat.

If the armed thugs are wearing badges (like the few desecrators of their oaths during Katrina), then their training will make them engage, with reinforcements, rather than flee.
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Old 05-14-2009, 16:26   #67
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With regard to AK's for SHTF, I think it would only beat the Mini if the SHTF were a foreign invasion by soldiers carrying AK's. That's why the Wolverines (!!!) used them. The first rule of a guerilla force lacking outside supply lines is to adopt the weapons of the enemy, so that captured ammo and replacements can be better used.

That said, if it's a SHTF where you need to get outta dodge on foot; because of weapon and ammo weight issues, I'd carry the Yugo AK and my wife would carry the Mini. However, if it were just me, I'd take the Mini (again for weight issues, as well as scrounged ammo availability).

On the OP, I wouldn't choose the AR because if things are that bad, you need to simplify, and the AR's cleaning/maintenance requirements make it more complex. If you're "bugging in" a well-fortified and manned location, the AR would be fine, because there'll be extra time/manpower for maintenance. But if you're in small numbers, the Mini still gets my vote.

Not saying the AR wouldn't function, but if maintenance is not an option, the Mini WILL last longer than the AR.
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Old 05-14-2009, 18:08   #68
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Originally Posted by Joe Garibaldi View Post
With regard to AK's for SHTF, I think it would only beat the Mini if the SHTF were a foreign invasion by soldiers carrying AK's. That's why the Wolverines (!!!) used them. The first rule of a guerilla force lacking outside supply lines is to adopt the weapons of the enemy, so that captured ammo and replacements can be better used.

That said, if it's a SHTF where you need to get outta dodge on foot; because of weapon and ammo weight issues, I'd carry the Yugo AK and my wife would carry the Mini. However, if it were just me, I'd take the Mini (again for weight issues, as well as scrounged ammo availability).

On the OP, I wouldn't choose the AR because if things are that bad, you need to simplify, and the AR's cleaning/maintenance requirements make it more complex. If you're "bugging in" a well-fortified and manned location, the AR would be fine, because there'll be extra time/manpower for maintenance. But if you're in small numbers, the Mini still gets my vote.

Not saying the AR wouldn't function, but if maintenance is not an option, the Mini WILL last longer than the AR.
The whole idea of having a SHTF weapon is to stock pile enough ammo for it so you don't have to rely on getting some from somebody else. I have a number of specialty weapons for long range defense against bad guys or bad badge toters if it comes to that. But I am prepared for whatever, when the SHTF, if it does. In my myopic opinion emperor obama is hastening this country to wards a SHTF situation.
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Old 05-14-2009, 19:48   #69
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to the original question...and just adding my 2 cents...

i'd go with a mini personally. The AR is nice, it's a decent platform when maintained. I know plenty of people with AR platforms that have never had any functionality problems, but will strip it down for a thorough cleaning/inspection of parts once a month. mini's can handle alot more abuse with just regular cleanings.


but then again...my 2 cents, and while i've shot both many a time, i own neither (yet).
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Old 05-14-2009, 19:52   #70
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Originally Posted by gossman View Post
The fantasy of a giant firefight is based on tv and the movies, not real life. The majority of the "Keyboard Commandos" would not survive long. But that is my opinion and I am no expert. The AR is fine just as the Mini is. Most likely the closest thing it will see will be cutouts and cans. Just as there is no evidence of a successful reload in a defensive civilian encounter, I doubt very much that there will the much use for the pallet of ammo in a SHTF or Bugout when the Canadians or Zombies pour over the boarder. This is what my Magic Eightball tells me.
With that line of thinking Skydivers like myself might as well not bring a reserve parachute because a malfunction "most likely won't happen" Or lets not take a certain precaution because someone says its "La la land" or "fantasy". Take a good look at our human history, take a look at how much fighting with guns we have done since guns have been invented. You're acting like we never had a revolutionary, civil war, Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Korean Conflict, Vietnam, and all the middle eastern wars in the past few hundred years!! You have this false sense of security just because we are on U.S soil. Look at all the Super Powers in the past, they all fell eventually. I always go by better to be safe than sorry. If it doesn't happen then great, but if it does... Just my opinion.
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Old 05-14-2009, 21:09   #71
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Originally Posted by Joe Garibaldi View Post
With regard to AK's for SHTF, I think it would only beat the Mini if the SHTF were a foreign invasion by soldiers carrying AK's. That's why the Wolverines (!!!) used them. The first rule of a guerilla force lacking outside supply lines is to adopt the weapons of the enemy, so that captured ammo and replacements can be better used.

That said, if it's a SHTF where you need to get outta dodge on foot; because of weapon and ammo weight issues, I'd carry the Yugo AK and my wife would carry the Mini. However, if it were just me, I'd take the Mini (again for weight issues, as well as scrounged ammo availability).

On the OP, I wouldn't choose the AR because if things are that bad, you need to simplify, and the AR's cleaning/maintenance requirements make it more complex. If you're "bugging in" a well-fortified and manned location, the AR would be fine, because there'll be extra time/manpower for maintenance. But if you're in small numbers, the Mini still gets my vote.

Not saying the AR wouldn't function, but if maintenance is not an option, the Mini WILL last longer than the AR.

With this in mind....

http://www.fema.gov/media/fact_sheets/nle09.shtm

....ammo for either shouldn't be a problem....
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Old 05-14-2009, 22:18   #72
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Originally Posted by trforester View Post
With this in mind....

http://www.fema.gov/media/fact_sheets/nle09.shtm

....ammo for either shouldn't be a problem....
That sounds like a martial law exercise...
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Old 05-14-2009, 22:37   #73
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Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
With that line of thinking Skydivers like myself might as well not bring a reserve parachute because a malfunction "most likely won't happen" Or lets not take a certain precaution because someone says its "La la land" or "fantasy". Take a good look at our human history, take a look at how much fighting with guns we have done since guns have been invented. You're acting like we never had a revolutionary, civil war, Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Korean Conflict, Vietnam, and all the middle eastern wars in the past few hundred years!! You have this false sense of security just because we are on U.S soil. Look at all the Super Powers in the past, they all fell eventually. I always go by better to be safe than sorry. If it doesn't happen then great, but if it does... Just my opinion.
Never said that. All things decay, 2nd law of Thermodynamics. Where you got that idea I do not understand. All talk about any SHTF is conjecture. If one has a gun, whether he is holding a Mini, M1, AR, Lever gun, or bolt rifle, that will be what he will be using. What will constitute the SHTF, who really knows. I leave that to you knowledgeable guys. And don't forget to pack the reserve.
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Old 05-14-2009, 22:50   #74
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Bought the reserve today, A P95 9mm.
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Old 05-14-2009, 23:03   #75
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Originally Posted by gossman View Post
Never said that. All things decay, 2nd law of Thermodynamics. Where you got that idea I do not understand. All talk about any SHTF is conjecture. If one has a gun, whether he is holding a Mini, M1, AR, Lever gun, or bolt rifle, that will be what he will be using. What will constitute the SHTF, who really knows. I leave that to you knowledgeable guys. And don't forget to pack the reserve.
Sorry maybe it was all the "trailer Park" "Frying Spam" "zombies" "fantasy fire fights" Talk in your previous statements that made me think you thought that anyone that tries to be prepared for the worst possible scenario God forbid a fire fight from either a foreign or domestic force that they would have to be a crazy loopy nut that lives in a trailer park eating spam getting reading for zombies. You my friend were out of line and made some ignorant statements. I'm sorry but you did. All the mini/ar stuff aside. You are just plain blindly ignorant. You lost all credit when you start spouting off ignorant stuff like that. Don't care if you teach Home defense classes or you are this or you are that or you spent however many years in the military (my Dad Retired with 25 years in the Army). I know one thing, in my opinion you are P*ss poor morally.
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Give me LIBERTY or give me DEATH!

Last edited by Brandon; 05-14-2009 at 23:05. Reason: typo
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