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80K views 157 replies 77 participants last post by  Back Again (Drache Teufel) 
#1 ·
I have read discussions like this for years. Now that I am a member I'm starting this one to try and objectively resolve this matter. Please no bashing lets just deal with the facts. I like both weapons, and have extensively shot then both. I personally favor the Mini 14.

Let's try and stick to these factors when considering these two rifles.
(Also lets try and stick with the most current AR's & Mini's .223 5.56)


1) Cost
2) Functionality
3) Practicality
4) Performance
5) Reliability
6) Accessories
7) Factory vs. Modded


Here is my Ruger Mini 14 (196 series):

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=50777
 
#52 ·
I am one of the lucky ones that survived the "jam-o-matic" farce in 'nam. You cannot run fast enough to give me another one. Luckily I traded mine for 2 Grease Guns that were perfect and fired a .45 round, did not jam, did not need forced assist, did not require a 10lb. cleaning kit and could be dropped in the mud and still cycle. The AR 15 is a monument to inept, incompontent planning made by somebody's third off cousin.
 
#53 ·
Glad to hear you did, TxCoyote.

It's instructive how some of the technology developed during WWII to be produced on the cheap turned out to be so effective and reliable. In addition to the Grease Gun, the PPSh41 and Sten come to mind.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these are the most talked about pros and cons with the ar15 and the mini.

Feel free to add to this list, as I am not very experienced in this information and would appreciate any help as it will help me and possibly others use it to make purchase decisions.

AR15 Pros:

Accuracy
Availability of magazines, accessories, etc, etc
low recoil
durable
reliable magazines
cost effective magazines
lightweight
relatively easy to take down

AR15 Cons:

Needs to be very clean to operate properly
Get's dirty and jams rather quickly with even the cleanest of ammo
prone to jamming in dirty environments/dirty ammo
requires more maintenance in dirty environments than other rifles
Magazine feed lip damage from storing ammo for too long in say an SHTF stash.



Mini 14 Pros

Extremely simple and therefore reliable
almost never jams due to it's very simplistic yet trustworthy design
is fairly accurate, even more so with modifications
Compact
Durable
works well in virtually any weather condition
can sustain extended usage without cleaning or lubrication
Lightweight compared to other rifles in it's class, or compared to it's big brother the M14
Easy to field strip and reassemble
low recoil


Mini 14 Cons

Not as accurate as some would like
Recoil is worse compared to the AR15
in comparison to the AR15 accessory market, the mini-14 loses by a very big margin
jamming problem with aftermarket magazines (magazine jam not action)
expensive factory magazines (only reliable ones as well)
not as lightweight as some would like


Not as much of a problem with the mini but with Ruger is ignoring the gun community's recommendations/opinions compared to other companies like Kel-Tec which directly ties in with short comings in the mini.
 
#55 ·
You covered the pros and cons very well, my biggest complaint about Ruger is their lack of responding to the public that supports them. Ruger could corner the market if their response to the public was more forthcoming. Personally, I would immediately buy a mini in 308 caliber, with a heavy barrel, precision gas block, quality peep sights and real wood stock.
 
#56 ·
I understand this is a Mini 14 based web site.
But to keep reading how unreliable an AR15 is ridiculous. This isn't 1963.
I've used an AR15 in Law Enforcement for a while too.
Go through a carbine class. Many rifles fail, 99% of the time it's lower end AR's. You know what else fails? Mini 14's. Don't believe that? Ask Pat Rogers.

The forward assist was added to the M16 to assist chambering rounds due to carbon, gunk build up after several hundred rounds were fired.
The horror stories of unreliability came from the early years due to the government changing powders in the round. Too fast and would burn the barrels out causing tumbling rounds and too dirty. That was the governments call, not Stoners. That has been corrected.

Any half decent rifle should hit a torso sized target at 200 yards. My AR15 will hit an eye at 200 yards.

Cleaning? How could it be simpler? Push a take down pin, pull the charging handle and BCG. Run a cleaning rod from the chamber end instead of the muzzle end on a Mini 14. Use a chamber brush. Not exactly high tech. I occasionally use a q-tip. Pull a cotter pin to remove the firing pin and bolt. Clean with a brush and solvent. Re assemble.

If needed, you can easily replace the firing pin, extractor, or complete bolt. No need to send it back to the manufacturer for hand fitting like a mini 14.

All the take down was designed to be done using the tip of a bullet.

Biggest down side is an AR bolt does need lube. Now if needed, you can spray it in through the ejection port while the weapon is together in a pinch.

The AR is not nearly as picky when it comes to mags. The Mini 14 had better have a perfect mag from about 1 of three companies to function correctly. And hope that nothing get bent out of spec or it won't feed.

Put 1000 rounds down a quality AR and a Mini 14 in one session. Statistics show the AR will run, the Mini 14 will not stand up.

Sights. I don't even need to address that. Optics mounts, lights, rails, any kind of combat accessory?

Combine all that with Rugers price. I don't see how they sell any.
The sad part is, Ruger could have improved it. Brought it up to date. The changes they have made are minimal.
And just because Ruger named it "Mini 14" doesn't make it such. That's just marketing.

The mini is what is was designed to be. A ranch/truck rifle.
The AR has been around for over 40 years. It's not perfect but I've yet to see a rifle that was. But to continue to call it unreliable, especially comparing it to a mini 14, is just bad information.
 
#58 · (Edited)
I understand this is a Mini 14 based web site.
But to keep reading how unreliable an AR15 is ridiculous. This isn't 1963.
I've used an AR15 in Law Enforcement for a while too.
Go through a carbine class. Many rifles fail, 99% of the time it's lower end AR's. You know what else fails? Mini 14's. Don't believe that? Ask Pat Rogers.
if the Stoner bolt design was as reliable as you say, there would be no reason for M14's being taken out of storage and shipped to the boys in the middle east. These are not just snipers who need to hit targets farther than the 5.56 will reach, these are jamming issues as well.

The forward assist was added to the M16 to assist chambering rounds due to carbon, gunk build up after several hundred rounds were fired.
The horror stories of unreliability came from the early years due to the government changing powders in the round. Too fast and would burn the barrels out causing tumbling rounds and too dirty. That was the governments call, not Stoners. That has been corrected.
Personally, I find the forward assist a rather useless feature. if the bolt won't go into battery because of an obstruction the obvious thing NOT to do is to force it to do so possibly making it harder to reverse once the fire fight is over.

I don't see how it has been corrected, the M4, M4A1, and CQBR as well as any other m16/m4/ar15 variants still have a forward assist.

Any half decent rifle should hit a torso sized target at 200 yards. My AR15 will hit an eye at 200 yards.

Cleaning? How could it be simpler? Push a take down pin, pull the charging handle and BCG. Run a cleaning rod from the chamber end instead of the muzzle end on a Mini 14. Use a chamber brush. Not exactly high tech. I occasionally use a q-tip. Pull a cotter pin to remove the firing pin and bolt. Clean with a brush and solvent. Re assemble.
Wait..I thought you were defending the AR15, not the mini...

If needed, you can easily replace the firing pin, extractor, or complete bolt. No need to send it back to the manufacturer for hand fitting like a mini 14.

I don't know about you but I've NEVER heard of a mini-14 firing pin, extractor or bolt failing under even heavy usage. So having easily changeable parts on a rifle that is by any measure definitely less reliable than the mini-14 is a handy feature to have. Nor do you have to have it sent back to replace such parts. If you look at the take down process, the bolt and firing pin are easily removed by hand.

All the take down was designed to be done using the tip of a bullet.
All the take down of the mini-14 was designed to be done using your hands.

See for yourself at 1:15

(the instructor in the video uses a punch, you can easily do the same with your finger just by pulling on the trigger guard)

Biggest down side is an AR bolt does need lube. Now if needed, you can spray it in through the ejection port while the weapon is together in a pinch.
Still a downside to the mini-14 which some people say can run dry for much longer periods than the mini-14. May not be good for it but it still functions perfectly.

The AR is not nearly as picky when it comes to mags. The Mini 14 had better have a perfect mag from about 1 of three companies to function correctly. And hope that nothing get bent out of spec or it won't feed.
This problem lies with the design of the after market magazines and not with the feeding mechanism in the mini-14

Put 1000 rounds down a quality AR and a Mini 14 in one session. Statistics show the AR will run, the Mini 14 will not stand up.
I'd love a copy of these statistics. Care to share?

Sights. I don't even need to address that. Optics mounts, lights, rails, any kind of combat accessory?
a point I addressed in my post, point goes to the AR15, or rather the picatinny rail mostly which is avaliable for the mini.

Combine all that with Rugers price. I don't see how they sell any.
The sad part is, Ruger could have improved it. Brought it up to date. The changes they have made are minimal.
And just because Ruger named it "Mini 14" doesn't make it such. That's just marketing.
I can see perfectly how they sell any. You'll find a basic mini for 600 or less while a low end AR15 (those ones prone to jamming, remember?) will run you 800+. Going into a gun store with 800 bucks, you could either walk out with an ar15 and that's it or a mini with maybe some accessories, some ammo, and maybe a few targets.

Despite me bashing Ruger for not listening to the gun community at large they have listened to somethings that are said. For one the recommendation of a thicker barrel, improved accuracy with the target models and etc.

Actually it does since the mini-14 is a shrunken down version of that famous reliable M14 and M1A bolt design.

M1A Bolt



Mini-14 Bolt



The mini is what is was designed to be. A ranch/truck rifle.
The AR has been around for over 40 years. It's not perfect but I've yet to see a rifle that was. But to continue to call it unreliable, especially comparing it to a mini 14, is just bad information.
Oh don't let the name ranch rifle deceive you and after all, both are in the same caliber which is why they are so often compared. Ruger may call it a varmint gun and a ranch gun but people use it far more for home defense than anything else.

The mini-14 has been around for 43 years counting it's conception in 1967. The bolt design dates back 78 years to 1932. Any way you stretch it the stoner bolt design is still the new kid on the block compared to the mini-14. But that isn't proof alone. The proof is in the numbers. The reason this forum is a mini-14 based forum is not because it's cheaper. What's 600 compared to 800 dollars when speaking about a quality rifle? And by the way no one here has said the ar15 is anything like a luger that jams as soon as a microscopic piece of dust works it's way into the action. We're saying comparatively the mini-14 is built tougher, simpler and works through the mud, rain, dust and dirt for as long as you need it.
 
#59 · (Edited)
The "forward assist issue was resolved by using decent ammunition. Any ammunition after several hundred rounds is going to leave a lot of residue. Even the Mini 14. Remember, the AR15 was designed for battle, not plinking. This also being why the easy ability to change the bolts, firing pins, ect... It's a battle rifle, meaning it sees a lot of rounds, and a lot of abuse. Not shooting an occasional Coyote.

Never heard of ANY bolt failures with a Mini 14? That's interesting. News to me. I was told the bolt had to go back to the factory because the bolt and firing pin is hand fitted. I guess if you are a gun smith you could pull this off. Not necessary in an AR15.

And if I recall, the statement was made that "Get's dirty and jams rather quickly with even the cleanest of ammo" Complely false. If it does, there is another issue.

I don't know where you shop, but I can get you a real nice AR for less than $800. And you can readily build your own.

I'm not a fan of the DI system but it does work. Piston builds are coming out. The trade off is extra weight. I'll pull up some information later from Pat Rogers regarding failures of the Mini 14 in his carbine classes.

And the magazine is a vital part of the feeding mechanism unless you are shooting single shots. A nub in the mag well that fits or doesn't fit a hole in the mag. And for quick loading, there's no room for error.

Again, just because it's a rolling block design doesn't put in it the same class as a Gerrand.
 
#61 ·
The "forward assist issue was resolved by using decent ammunition. Any ammunition after several hundred rounds is going to leave a lot of residue. Even the Mini 14. Remember, the AR15 was designed for battle, not plinking. This also being why the easy ability to change the bolts, firing pins, ect... It's a battle rifle, meaning it sees a lot of rounds, and a lot of abuse. Not shooting an occasional Coyote.
That still doesn't justify the need to jam the bolt into battery if it would do so normally. If there is an obstruction then forcing the bolt forward isn't exactly the smartest thing to do.

Never heard of ANY bolt failures with a Mini 14? That's interesting. News to me. I was told the bolt had to go back to the factory because the bolt and firing pin is hand fitted. I guess if you are a gun smith you could pull this off. Not necessary in an AR15.
I have heard of bolt failures with the mini, it was always either a fault of the ammo or severe abuse by either a previous owner or the current owner.

And if I recall, the statement was made that "Get's dirty and jams rather quickly with even the cleanest of ammo" Complely false. If it does, there is another issue.
Then what would this other issue be? How about some proof since you're attacking my argument.

I don't know where you shop, but I can get you a real nice AR for less than $800. And you can readily build your own.
Are you even reading my posts?

Ruger Mini-14 All Weather Ranch Rifle, 5805, black/stainless, 5.56 - $697 at the most, a regular wood stock blued ranch rifle even less.

The AR15 LOSES on the price front since even the most basic models are 200 more than a ranch rifle.

And the magazine is a vital part of the feeding mechanism unless you are shooting single shots. A nub in the mag well that fits or doesn't fit a hole in the mag. And for quick loading, there's no room for error.
The magazine is a separate part unless it's a permanently fixed magazine. If we want to nit pick on that then I'll add another failure to the AR15 and choose the worst possible POS magazines to add another ding against it's name.

Again, just because it's a rolling block design doesn't put in it the same class as a Gerrand.
I'm sure there are quite a few people besides me that would beg to differ.
 
#60 ·
"I'll pull up some information later from Pat Rogers regarding failures of the Mini 14 in his carbine classes"
Unfortunatley because I am a member of the same L.E.O. forum that he is, I cannot post his quotes from that web site.
So, if anyone would like to see his and other experts in tactics and weapons, Google is your friend.

Buy the Mini 14. I had one. I might have another at a decent price. But trying to portray the AR 15 as unreliable to bolster the Mini 14 is rediculous. The only thing they have in common is they will both fiire .223.
Then again, the AR15 will also fire 5.56.
One is a battle rifle, one is a plinker. Can the Mini be used for self defense? Sure. Most any gun can.
 
#63 ·
You need to throw out the price argument. So what if the AR is $200 more? That's peanuts over the lifetime of a rifle. The cost of a rifle is a biasing element in and of itself. The Mini owner believes he was smarter because he got an equal rifle for less money. The AR owner believes he was smarter because he spent more to get a better platform.

Mini owners claim these threads are useless since the rifles are so different. Really? Tell Ruger that. The latest Ruger Mini Tactical come with a 20-round mag, flash suppressor and is all black.

I am a new Mini owner. I like the way it handles, but it was not designed with a hi-cap magazine in mind. They work fine, but seem to be in an odd position for me as a lefty. My feeling is that the Mini would be more dependable in bad conditions. But until I get more trigger time, I'm withholding judgement on which is better.
 
#76 · (Edited)
You need to throw out the price argument. So what if the AR is $200 more? That's peanuts over the lifetime of a rifle.
+1

More like peanut shells, when you consider that you may be relying on this rifle to save your life.

If we're talking about combat or self-defense---situations where your life and the lives of those you love are on the line---what difference does a couple hundred dollars make? Would you really rather have a rifle that is less dependable, more prone to malfunctioning--- because it COST LESS?

In a combat weapon, I'm going to spend whatever it takes to get the most reliable weapon available.

Thus the real argument of 'Mini vs. AR' should be one of reliability: Is the Mini indeed more reliable than the AR under combat conditions? If it is, then it's the better choice, no matter which can be gotten for a lower price.

On the other hand, if the AR is just as reliable as the Mini, then and only then do these other factors---cost, accuracy, ergonomics, parts availability, etc---come into play.
 
#64 ·
I have already thrown my two cents into this blender, but here is an interesting bit from Sierra Arms Corp, from their Mini 14 Gallery. BTW they work on ARs as well.
"The recurring trend you'll see here is that the barrels of our Mini conversions are all very short- legal minimum in fact. I will never make the promise that your mini can shoot MOA accuracy. It cannot. I submit that the mini 14's problem with accuracy is NOT the barrel size or length. The issue affecting accuracy is that it is a RUGER MINI 14! Take it for what it is, and build on that. The mini is a battle rifle. It is an offensive weapon best suited for extreme duty- more so than even the AR platform (dare I say). By reducing the rifle's weight and size we make it handle faster. By reducing the barrel's length- we reduce the duration of the pressure stroke through the op system. This in turn, reduces the motion of the rifle by slowing down the "recoil" force you may feel. Lastly, enhancing the user interface with a light, crisp trigger and enhanced sighting system. Myself and others have carried SAC's mini conversions to victory at several 3 gun and USPSA rifle matches. It has been suggested by one very satisfied client that we change the name of our rifle to "Awesome-14."
 
#67 · (Edited)
^^^ Yes, I'd forgotten about this. Obviously another misconception in design. No wonder it was discontinued - not enough heft etc. for the .308

It probably would have flown if it was made in some high performance intermediate caliber (between a .223 & .308) like exists today. That and a proper barrel!

With the right caliber, it could be (or rather, could have been) a very handy rifle for long range surpression fire and semi auto sniper work in a squad full of .223 carbines. Sort of like what the M1a is used for today, only lighter.
 
#70 ·
Wuteva

Like a lot of people I've had both. For a civilian protection gun a mini is just fine. No you can't get all the bells and whistles and make it look super awesome but ...

It's reliable even when dirty. The AR not so much.

There is no bore line / sight line differential. For snap shots in close range you aim and shoot a mini with a AR you have to raise your sights 1 1/2 " to be on.

The gun shoulders more quickly than an AR.

For an average guy the Mini will do everything more simply than an AR will such as sending a round home i.e. hitting a tini forward assist button or simply smacking a charging handle forward.

Or better yet just buy a MIA and know your sending some true energy down range.:lol:
 
#71 ·
Like a lot of people I've had both. For a civilian protection gun a mini is just fine. No you can't get all the bells and whistles and make it look super awesome but ...
I beg to differ.



It's reliable even when dirty. The AR not so much.

There is no bore line / sight line differential. For snap shots in close range you aim and shoot a mini with a AR you have to raise your sights 1 1/2 " to be on.

The gun shoulders more quickly than an AR.

For an average guy the Mini will do everything more simply than an AR will such as sending a round home i.e. hitting a tini forward assist button or simply smacking a charging handle forward.

Or better yet just buy a MIA and know your sending some true energy down range.:lol:
The rest I agree with.

Truly both rifles have a large number of fans. But I think the mini still wins not only because it's been around for about the same time, but because it's far more reliable. I think the sale of mini's would drop if they were somehow worse as a home defense weapon compared to something like an AR.
 
#73 · (Edited)
I have both Mini 14's and AR15's, I like both equally for different reasons. Mags are a nonissue anymore for Mini's as qualty mags are readily available and somewhat reasonably priced now. Barrel thickness is the real difference between the Mini 14 and the AR15 in my opinion. From left to right: Smith & Wesson MP15, Rock River Arms heavy barrel upper and field stripped NRA Mini 14.
 
#77 ·
Having used an AR15 in the military and in law enforcement, and owning several of BOTH rifles, I will say with confidence that the MINI 14 is a great patrol and self defense rifle, but it IS NOT ready for prime time combat. 1). The barrel, even the newer "heavier" ones (580-581 series) are too thin and when they heat up, your shot group spreads out. 2.) the sight are mickey mouse. PERIOD. The rifle needs M1 Garand/M14/M16 style adjustable sights. 3). More rails for optics, accessories, etc. Ruger only offers aftermarket rails for their rifles. Ruger just isn't interested in competing in the military market with the MINI 14, or they would have made those upgrades at least.

I think the key with the MINI 14 is using it/appreciating it for what it is and using it in those perimeters. It's a great, reliable pretty accurate rifle and will fit the bill for most uses for the american civilian, even law enforcement shooter. It just isn't ready for the streets of Baghdad or the mountains of Afghanistan. Oh and a new MINI 14 is damn near the price of a no frills AR15, making the choice for shooters outside of California and other blue anti-gun states a no brainer.
 
#80 ·
I prefer the mini for safety reasons. Much of my shooting has involved my kids in the past and now my grandkids.
I tend to favor anything (pickup trucks, guns, etc) according to how I will use it the most.

With the mini I can see from a distance whether the safety is on or off, I can also see whether the bolt is open or closed, and with one glance I can see whether the gun is cocked or not.

IMO there is no better or worse anything because everything has its place and for my use the mini fits better than the AR.

If in life it was true that there is one better than all the rest; then all men would wish to marry the same woman.
I see the mini-AR argument as much the same as my wife is better than yours.
 
#81 ·
Well put, Gig. For the record, though, I must assert that my wife is better than yours . . . and anyone else's, for that matter. :D

BadPig, you make good points about the Mini not being a MBR. Of course, it wasn't designed to be; while the Stoner design was, yet lacks essential the essential durability of such a description. That's why I think the Mini vs. AR debate remains eternal.

On price, the Mini's cornering/grandfathering of the California market has kept its price artificially high for the rest of us. Ruger, Sr.'s legacy, I guess, for better or worse.
 
#86 ·
Well put, Gig. For the record, though, I must assert that my wife is better than yours . . . and anyone else's, for that matter. :D

BadPig, you make good points about the Mini not being a MBR. Of course, it wasn't designed to be; while the Stoner design was, yet lacks essential the essential durability of such a description. That's why I think the Mini vs. AR debate remains eternal.
Thanks Joe,,,and I got a big laugh from your "my wife" comment.
A few things about this debate---
The rifles are different and have different uses...
-If I am going into the woods with my grandchildren, I will take the mini..
-If I am going into battle, I will take the AR.
I expect to be doing far more of the former than the latter, but I will always be doing it with my wife.
 
#82 ·
This thread topic should be banned. There are so many of them, they get so old, and they just go around in circles. Really, how many times can we have this discussion, and think its going to produce something. Almost as bad are the threads about 223 vs 5.56x45. These should all be stickied.:wacko:
 
#89 ·
Then let's really wind it up then. The design the mini was taken from was a short term weapon that was not widely used in a long term conflict. I think it's service life as the main weapon was about 7 years. It's procurement was cut short in 1963 after a number of negative events. It went into service after Korea and was replaced early on in Vietnam. It really seems to be coming into it's own in the current fight tho.
 
#88 ·
AR v Mini

I don't have near the experience with the Mini compared to the AR/M16 platform (6 yrs Marine Infantry). If for no other reason than I "grew up" with the AR platform so I'm more comfortable with it. My experience with the Mini is limited to a couple thousand rounds.

I never had the reliability issues with my AR's or M16. I've shot a lot of rounds through both military and civilian versions.

I like the mini platform but not near as much as the AR.

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