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Old 05-06-2011, 14:41   #1
tap
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why care if he flops around a bit, 223 hit,900m?-

He's no threat to you after taking a 223 hit to the chest at such a distance. he was almost certainly no threat to you before you shot him, you see, so the additional debilitation of the 223 guarantees that he can't hit you back at such a distance, nor can he run 1/2 mile and maybe get good shots at you, after taking such a hit. The running would bleed him out long before he got that close. So the argument that the 223 "lacks enough power" for long range sniping is mostlly bs.
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Old 05-06-2011, 14:59   #2
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Except for when a thick desert robes with some sheet metal body armor stops the round entirely.

Remember, those reports are not coming from the "AK guys" on perfectunion... They are coming from soldiers in Afghanistan.

Edit too add:
Has there ever been a recorded kill shot at 900m with 5.56? That is the record kill shot distance for 7.62x51. It would be a pretty seriously impressive shot from a 5.56.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:01   #3
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such shots are "wannabee" things, not necessary at all. So which will do what is irrelevant. your "sheet metal" argument is bs, such might well stop the 308, too, given the "right" combo of range and materials, you know. so it's a bs argument. HOw would you like to wear, say, a vest made out of 1/8" thick sheet metal, and let me take some shots at you at 1000 yds, using the 90 gr Berger Vld bullet? :-) you are so SURE that it won't penetrate, right? why not put your money where your mouth is, then? I'm sure thaat MANY guys wear such metal armor, in the heat and stress of Stan, right? What a LAME reason to favor that old clunker of a 308. :-) Why not get REAL and use commercial browning auto in 300 Win mage or something that has a CHANCE of realistic performance beyond 223 distances? cause the 308 is a LAME choice for such work and we all know it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 14:24   #4
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Pure ignorance.

I've seen people keep going about being hit with the 62 gr SS109 at close range, and take several rounds before going down for good.

Long range shots like that are not going to happen especially with a carbine, considering the max adjustment on the rear sight is 600m, and on the A2 rifle is 800m, sure the round will travel that far but chances for a successful hit are pretty limited.

The round loses so much of it's energy over distance that if you hit a man size target, which looks around the size of a coke can at 800 m through the iron sights the possibility of it being a lethal wound is minimal.

Even using optics and getting a clear sight picture does not overcome the limitations of the ammunition or the weapons system.

Reach out and touch someone rounds are the 7.62x51 (308) and .50 BMG which is why sniper weapons are chambered in these rounds not 5.56mm

My observations of close and long range shots on humans with the 5.56 are first hand, it is not a bad round at close range inside 300 yds but sucks outside of that.

6.8 SPC was developed for a reason, a light intermediate cartridge with the same velocity at 300 yds as the 5.56 has leaving the muzzle. Resulting in more lethality at longer ranges.
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Old 05-10-2011, 16:00   #5
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I've never played with a 6.8 but the idea of such a cartridge has a lot of merit.
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Old 05-10-2011, 18:28   #6
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
such shots are "wannabee" things, not necessary at all. So which will do what is irrelevant. your "sheet metal" argument is bs, such might well stop the 308, too, given the "right" combo of range and materials, you know. so it's a bs argument. HOw would you like to wear, say, a vest made out of 1/8" thick sheet metal, and let me take some shots at you at 1000 yds, using the 90 gr Berger Vld bullet? :-) you are so SURE that it won't penetrate, right? why not put your money where your mouth is, then? I'm sure thaat MANY guys wear such metal armor, in the heat and stress of Stan, right? What a LAME reason to favor that old clunker of a 308. :-) Why not get REAL and use commercial browning auto in 300 Win mage or something that has a CHANCE of realistic performance beyond 223 distances? cause the 308 is a LAME choice for such work and we all know it.
I guess the reports from US marines and US army troops about homemade armor and desert robes defeating the 5.56 are all lies, even though I've heard some first hand and read others in official reports while I was enlisted doing military intelligence. :-) I also guess that everything I know about the penetration of .308 vs 5.56 is also lies since you seem to suggest that they are comparable. :-) And why wont I let someone shoot at me with it if I think it is an anemic round at far ranges? I guess because I don't feel the need to prove anything to an mall ninja who's brand myopia has led him to think that what he owns is the end all in firearms. :-)

I have nothing against AR's, the ones I carried in my military service kind of sucked in terms of reliability... but I've also used awesome ones since then as a civilian, and I know that as an intel troop I was probably given the old beaters while the nice ones probably went to combat troops. I also have no problems with .223, it's a fine long range plinker, and can do the job of a short/mid range defense round if need be. But, I do think there are many better suited calibers for the job that we should be issuing our boys instead. It's kind of strange. One of the greatest features of the AR is the ability to change calibers with relative ease... but instead they keep hot-rodding a wildcat .22 that was originally designed for prairie dogs. :-)

As far as "such shots are 'wannabee' things, not necessary at all. So which will do what is irrelevant." ... Dude, look at your original post. You were the one who suggested the 900m range. :-)

And if you think .308 is a "lame" choice for long range... Then you must be on a new kind of kool-aid to think that .223 is acceptable. :-)
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:06   #7
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those ranges are amusing to me for civilians or self defense type scenarios, in all seriousness, outside of 300 yards if someone is shooting at you, RUN. Simple, why have a gunfight when you have a chance that you can evade the situation?? oddball scenarios aside of course or if your on the "offensive"
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Old 06-03-2011, 18:56   #8
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I own a LWRCI PSD chambered in 6.8 with a FA8k Surefire suppressor, bought it mostly because of it being an SBR , you can get it chambered in 5.56 or the 6.8, I chose the 6.8 because I had never had one...let's say that for me any further weapons systems that I purchase will be the 6.8 or 308. JMO
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Old 06-15-2011, 22:42   #9
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Intersting. Can you even identify a target as being a threat or not at that distance?
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Old 06-15-2011, 23:24   #10
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Heh .. another funny post. At 900 meters the 5.56 NATO cartridge (77gr) has 205 FT/lBS of energy. That's the power of a .380 JHP. Do you know why most air marshals carry the .380? Well, because it won't (in most cases) penetrate the skin of an airplane even within point blank range. Therefore, if I'm wearing sheet metal and a heavy robe, I highly doubt it will penetrate my protection at that range.

Not to mention factoring in wind drift, drop, etc. This is not only an impossible shot for almost any human to do out of a carbine length M4 (or even a 24 inch rifle) but it's also very impractical and unlikely. ANY time they'd need to make a shot out to that kind of distance, first of all, they're going to call in a more practical weapon for the job. Your standard M4 carrying soldier isn't going to be called upon to fire at someone at that distance (it's unlikely that they'd even be able to determine if they're a threat) and also .. that's a job for a real marksman with a big ass gun.

The longest shot a .308 has ever made is around that distance, btw. Not to mention that was a fluke .. under extreme duress, which was not even intended to be a hit. Only a warning shot to scare away the sniper from his hide. The fact is if they need a kill at that range, it's a job for the .50 BMG.
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Old 06-17-2011, 20:43   #11
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Wow. Every forum on the planet has an argument about 556 vs yadayada. I'm a nobody who served for 4 years infantry. My father in law served 2 tours in VN.one with M14's,one with M16's.He prefered the 14 but said the 16 will kill just as good at close ranges where he had to use it.
Bottom line."The best weapon on the planet is the one you have when you need it"!
An ex soldier with a 10/22 will clean house on a squad or 2 of civilians with Ar's anytime,so pick a perty rifle and get some training and don't stress about the caliber.Chances are your only ever going to poke holes in paper anyway.
Have a good un.
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Old 06-20-2011, 17:07   #12
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
such shots are "wannabee" things, not necessary at all. So which will do what is irrelevant. your "sheet metal" argument is bs, such might well stop the 308, too, given the "right" combo of range and materials, you know. so it's a bs argument. HOw would you like to wear, say, a vest made out of 1/8" thick sheet metal, and let me take some shots at you at 1000 yds, using the 90 gr Berger Vld bullet? :-) you are so SURE that it won't penetrate, right? why not put your money where your mouth is, then? I'm sure thaat MANY guys wear such metal armor, in the heat and stress of Stan, right? What a LAME reason to favor that old clunker of a 308. :-) Why not get REAL and use commercial browning auto in 300 Win mage or something that has a CHANCE of realistic performance beyond 223 distances? cause the 308 is a LAME choice for such work and we all know it.
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Have you ever fired a rifle at 600 or more yards, I have, I doubt that you could hit a man at 100, I have shot cmp courses at 500 and 600 with an opensigted rifle and made decent hits. I doubt you could do it from a bench rest with a scope sighted rifle.Mostly you are full of BS.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:31   #13
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May I have your attention please: TAP has left the building.

His frenzy of Idiotic and pointless threads ended on 05-12-2011.

You can let them die a peaceful death by simply ignoring them.
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Old 06-22-2011, 17:25   #14
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Talking here's what I think !

Guess I'm too late , but I will miss Tap !
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Old 06-25-2011, 08:43   #15
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Originally Posted by Carpshooter View Post
Guess I'm too late , but I will miss Tap !
Maybe your sights were off. Rezero and try again.
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Old 12-24-2011, 18:07   #16
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by the way ss109 in soft flesh won't open up.Will bee hole threw why so many shots.Hollow point Cannelured bullets at close range have the most effect on soft tissue.The 77 grain in a 1 and 7 twist short barrel say 14 inches will have enough kinetic energy to kill a man at 1000 yards.The mass vs velocity is the key hence the 50bmg.The ar was developed for ease of use and field level maintenance.Lighter 223 ammo gave more fire power at close range to intermediate range plus it was cheaper.Also the mindset has been close range battles house to house in crowded civilian area's.It could be that long distance shootouts were not expected hence the now revival of 308 type weapons and the 6.8 to facilitate barrier penetration.By the way shooting a handgun bullet will penetrate the skin of an aircraft with no dramatic pressurization loss as they are not air tight and have constant small leaks which are allowed in a decay check.Air marshals carry 40's for maximum affect.I'm sure some might carry lesser or more depending on the situation.There are many reasons why the military went to the ar platform and the 223 and all weapons have some faults i feel the ar type system still out performs in most cases in combat.
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Old 12-25-2011, 08:24   #17
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I miss Tap!
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:38   #18
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Maximum effective range of M4 carbine is considered to be 500 meters for a point target, which comes up to approximately 545 yards. The maximum effective range of the M16 is listed as 550 meters for a point target, or about 600 yards. Sure, with the right ammo and the right person using it, a 900 meter kill is possible but, highly doubtful, that is what they make M24's and such as that for.
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Old 01-05-2012, 18:16   #19
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You do realize that this thread was started by someone who was and probably still is insane right?
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:44   #20
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Oh yea. Just had to toss a few stats out there in case anyone was really giving thought to some of this. Not saying it can't be done but it will take a lot better shooter than most of us and probably a pretty specialized rifle to boot.
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Old 04-06-2012, 23:56   #21
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I'm siding with whoever said 300 yards and in for the 5.56x45mm!

If youre trying to engage someone beyond that and they have a bigger and better caliber for the job than you....sionara!

Run and live to fight another day.

After WW2 the Germans did a study on the average engagement distance for troops...guess what....it was 300 meters or less. More than suitable for the 5.56x45mm. And if they are wearing crude body armor you break out the m855 AP rounds and say good bye to the bad guy. For me, i find the round to more than suitable for what it was designed for. I'd take if over a .308 in a SHTF situation just because i can carry more bullets due to the less weight.

As for the 900m shot.....i doubt any civilians, especially me lol, would be able to hit a man sized target even with a full mag of 30 rounds.

Last edited by Pet-Rock; 04-07-2012 at 00:11.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:00   #22
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Can we all please let Gunkid's threads die?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:36   #23
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Originally Posted by larryp View Post
Can we all please let Gunkid's threads die?

no way - they are little nuggets of hilarity in an otherwise serious forum.

every time a Gunkid/tap thread gets resurrected, I get another chuckle out of it.


Tap come back! we miss you!
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Old 04-10-2012, 21:49   #24
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Originally Posted by Airacuda View Post
Wow. Every forum on the planet has an argument about 556 vs yadayada. I'm a nobody who served for 4 years infantry. My father in law served 2 tours in VN.one with M14's,one with M16's.He prefered the 14 but said the 16 will kill just as good at close ranges where he had to use it.
Bottom line."The best weapon on the planet is the one you have when you need it"!
An ex soldier with a 10/22 will clean house on a squad or 2 of civilians with Ar's anytime,so pick a perty rifle and get some training and don't stress about the caliber.Chances are your only ever going to poke holes in paper anyway.
Have a good un.
How did the most profound statement end up unnoticed in this thread...

Pick a rifle you like, and get might familiar with it. Chances are you will never end up in a shtf anyway. So true, When was the last time you heard of a civilian engaging large amounts of hostile forces, requiring shots out to 900yds, through swamp and desert, for multiple days, shooting thousands of rounds at a time, all the while, moaning over the fact that the gun he has only shoots 1 MOA at 100yds and really needs that extra 300 ft lbs that .xxx caliber would give.

Truth is, the most common SHTF is at a distance of approx. 10 feet, using handguns. And nobody uses sights or cares about accuracy. The winner has the fastest draw and highest rate of fire. Given those circumstances, it won't matter if you have a cheytac .408 or a .22 derringer, you shoot and think about things later. We all like to take pride in the fact that our firearms of capable of such and such, but when someone is shooting at you or waving a kitchen knife in your face all you could care for is that the gun goes bang when you pull that trigger.
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Old 05-26-2012, 18:21   #25
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Plus if your us hollow point the exit hole the size of a softball will mean he is dead with 1/2 a lung, and 1/3 of his spine all over the ground...
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