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Old 05-03-2011, 09:21   #1
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223 has 250 ft lbs left at 1000 yds,

If you use the 90 gr Vld bullet and all the tricks that the 308 guys use to make it seem like the 308 is a "1000 yd capable" load. It's not, really, you need the 300 mag or something like that, but the 223 can match the 308, by using a 26" barrel and starting the 90 gr bullet at 2800 fps. This bullet has such a very high ballistic coefficient that it still has 1200 fps left at 1000 yds. Google for Berger Bullets and check it out.
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Old 05-06-2011, 18:30   #2
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Man! is that all it takes? Damn, sign me up. I have a 24" AR, guess stabilization factor hasnt made it into your calculations yet.

As far as the 308, it has taken many bad guys in the 900 yd range with the m24 and m40, even in the past handful of years.
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Old 05-07-2011, 19:28   #3
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ok Here is some data for you. Im using the data from berger. I only have the 80gr VLD data.

OAL: 1.105"
Velocity: 2800
Rate of twist of most ARs: 1 in 8
Stability factor of .79
If SF is less than 1.0 bullet is not stablized. 1.0<SF<1.3 Marginally stable 1.3<sf<1.5 fully stable, SF>1.5 bullet maximally stable.

Even at 1 in 7 SF is only 1.04 compared to a 308 with a 155 VLD, 1-10 twist SF of 1.51
I played with the VLDs in 257 at 3400f/s and they would barely stabize at that velocity. Go shoot 1000yds, I have done it and it is impressivly far. 600yds is suprisingly far. then tell us how your 52" long AR shoots.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:01   #4
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I'm an old high-power competitor who enjoys his beloved .30s.

Tell me, because I'm out of fashion, do these .223s loaded with 90 grain bullets fit and feed in the normal AR?

Specialized loadings and 26-inch barrels to obtain 1200 fps with 90 grain .223 bullets at 1000 yards. Yippie.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:31   #5
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need 1 in 6.5" rifling twist. The AR OWNS the 600 yd line and has done so for over 12 years now, ever since Berger came out with his 80 gr vld 223 bullet. No, even the 80 gr bullets dont feed from the mag, but nobody who WINS anything with 308 autos feeds the ammo from the mag, either, you know. :-) The trip up the feed ramp is too likely to slightly damage the bullet, or its alignment in the cartridge case. All 1000 yd shooting is just bs, so why have a 308 specialized for such, either, hmm? The 223 Ar's have been kicking 308 butt for 30+ years, now, at any practical range/match.
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Old 05-09-2011, 14:18   #6
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Why are you so hot to trot over the .223, a nice middling varmint round?

Do you personally ever actually shoot?
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Old 05-09-2011, 18:55   #7
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I beg to differ on your opinion of the .308 round. Like your theory with the longer barrel on the .223, the barrel makes the difference with .308 as well. Twist, length and barrel thickness will all factor into the long shot. And of course, the powder load and weight of projectile as well.

I hit plenty of targets at 1K with an M24 chambered in .308 (7.62x51 if you prefer) when I was in the army. I've had 8" groups at that range, which is sub MOA. So it is in fact "doable".

Not saying the .300 WM or .338 Lapua Mag aren't superior rounds, just that the .308 doesn't always get the recognition it deserves.

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Old 05-09-2011, 19:13   #8
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
need 1 in 6.5" rifling twist. The AR OWNS the 600 yd line and has done so for over 12 years now, ever since Berger came out with his 80 gr vld 223 bullet. No, even the 80 gr bullets dont feed from the mag, but nobody who WINS anything with 308 autos feeds the ammo from the mag, either, you know. :-) The trip up the feed ramp is too likely to slightly damage the bullet, or its alignment in the cartridge case. All 1000 yd shooting is just bs, so why have a 308 specialized for such, either, hmm? The 223 Ar's have been kicking 308 butt for 30+ years, now, at any practical range/match.
might want to tell that to one of the VC that Carlos Hathcock shot at 1500 yards with a 30.06 in Nam or those poor Taliban Shmucks that Furlong and Harrison whacked in Afganistan with .50 and .338 at a hair under 3000 yards

oh wait you can't because they are DEAD.

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Old 05-09-2011, 19:26   #9
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Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
Why are you so hot to trot over the .223, a nice middling varmint round?

Do you personally ever actually shoot?
This +1.

The USAMU tried to use the 90 grain at 1000 yards, they trained all the time with it,used it in competition but they now use the AR10 because they could not win with the 223 at 1000 yards.

Cold, raw, fact
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Old 08-09-2011, 13:34   #10
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Here is your answer to the shooting 1,000 yards argument

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Old 08-09-2011, 21:06   #11
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this u-tube clip has some merit
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:00   #12
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Originally Posted by magnomark View Post
this u-tube clip has some merit
Thank you, I lol'ed the first time I watched it.

The "I "have" to shoot 1,000 yards" mentality is just plain stupid, especially when your talking about the 223/5.56mm.

Most people could not shoot 1,000 yards if they had to - and I am probably one of them. How can someone even see a target at 1,000 yards, much less hit it.

I am perfectly happy shooting in the 100 - 125 yard range, because that is where 99% of my shots are at.

This deer was taken at around 80 yards from a kneeling position. I rounded the top of a hill, the deer had its head down eating, I knelt and fired a round hitting the deer in the neck.

That is a weatherby vanguard in 270. I think the round was a remington core-lokt 140 grain.



Unless you live in a desert, or mountain region, good luck with the 1,000 yards shots.

As for taking shots at game animals with a 223 at 1,000 yards - that is laughable.

First, always use the right tool for the job. And the 223 is not the right tool for long range hunting - unless your shooting ground hogs, or other small animals.

If you want to retrieve the animal, and utilize the meat, the 223 is not the right tool for the job.
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Old 08-10-2011, 15:04   #13
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
As for taking shots at game animals with a 223 at 1,000 yards - that is laughable.
Not to mention it's just plain unethical to do that.


For me, I aim for the 1000 yd mark, I admit. But that's a personal test for me. I like to challenge myself, and I've done so in almost every aspect of my life. But I also use a realistic round to try and achieve that, not a .223.
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Old 08-11-2011, 00:55   #14
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I'll take the other side of this....a little.
"Unless you live in a desert, or mountain region, good luck with the 1,000 yards shots."

You left out the Mississippi Delta region. The huge leveled rice fields here can reach 1000 yards or more.

"If you want to retrieve the animal, and utilize the meat, the 223 is not the right tool for the job."

I've done this with a .223 several times out to 285 yards on a range finder, but you have to let a lot of deer walk until that just right shot presents itself. In my simple mind the .223/5.56 is a 300 yard round.

As far as the 1000 yards goes, good luck to the people that really try it. I can go to 600 here and while I have plenty of people sighting in here, so far no takers on my 400 yard target...And I'm having trouble with getting decent groups there with a 7 mag. Going to start with the 22.250 next, now there's a .22 screamer.
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Old 08-12-2011, 05:14   #15
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Originally Posted by p35bhp55 View Post
I've done this with a .223 several times out to 285 yards on a range finder, but you have to let a lot of deer walk until that just right shot presents itself. In my simple mind the .223/5.56 is a 300 yard round.
My personal opinion, the 223/5.56mm is not a deer caliber. I know a lot of people use the 223/5.56mm for deer - I have a pic of a deer brought to the deer camp by a 10 year old girl and her 223.

I see no reason to use the 223 when there are better calibers out there - 25-06, 270, 280/7mm express, 308, 30-06,,,, only to name a few.

But with the example of the 10 year old girl, she needed something with very low recoil, so the 223 or a 243 was probably the best choice for her needs.

When I sling a chunk of lead at a deer, I want that deer to be taken down as humanely as possible. I do not trust the 223/5.56mm to be as effective as say the 270 or 308.

Last hunting season my nephew took a whitetail doe with a 308 and remington core-lokt 150 grain. The blood trail looked like someone turned on a water hose full of blood. The deer moved 20 feet and fell dead.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:32   #16
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Trying to kill a deer at 1000 yards with a .223 would be like me trying to kill a deer with my crossbow a 200 yards.
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:09   #17
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Originally Posted by bquick View Post
Trying to kill a deer at 1000 yards with a .223 would be like me trying to kill a deer with my crossbow a 200 yards.
I wonder if I could even see a deer thru my 3x9 at 1000. Maybe if he was in the open.
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:18   #18
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It is stupid to even think that you could take a shot at a Deer at 1,000 yards with a .223 and I don't care what length or rate of twist the Bbl. is. As far as a .308 not being a 1,000 yard weapon I know personaly of several people that got too meet their Buda many years before they thought they would with a 3 1/2 lb. squeez of a Winchester Trigger. Let us also remember that a .308 is also a 30-06 slug or visa versa.
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:23   #19
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Sling? I just use the strap from those overalls I was wearing!
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Old 11-11-2011, 16:28   #20
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
need 1 in 6.5" rifling twist. The AR OWNS the 600 yd line and has done so for over 12 years now, ever since Berger came out with his 80 gr vld 223 bullet. No, even the 80 gr bullets dont feed from the mag, but nobody who WINS anything with 308 autos feeds the ammo from the mag, either, you know. :-) The trip up the feed ramp is too likely to slightly damage the bullet, or its alignment in the cartridge case. All 1000 yd shooting is just bs, so why have a 308 specialized for such, either, hmm? The 223 Ar's have been kicking 308 butt for 30+ years, now, at any practical range/match.
Tell them boys that are snipers in the sandbox that. They will run you off from your range.
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Old 11-11-2011, 16:49   #21
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Just for giggles will add some fun facts that I have done where I live.
We have quite a few long narrow lakes in the foothill that have ridge top access looking into the canyons where the water is.

Over the years fired 100's if not 1000's of shots down at the water in an attempt to hit floating debris like driftwood & Bark pieces.
Most times at MINIMUM we are 200 yards and some well into 1000 yard + distances.
* Whats so damn cool about this is "If" you hit the water at all you can see and spot your shots !!

Make no mistake about it over 500 yards and beyond your not half as good a shot as you think you are !!

Most of my really long shot stuff was shooting a Ruger 77V in 6mm Remington with hand loads. This is one bad ass round that rivals any hot .22 for reach out and touch something at range use.

Fun stuff and really really difficult to reach that far with any degree of consistency unless you CAN SEE what your shooting at and a way to spot your shots and adjust accordingly.
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Old 02-07-2012, 19:00   #22
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I know that the 5.56 round is good to 600 meters. but i'v never trained any ferther than 220 meters. I have read that most fire fights happen at this range or closer
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Old 02-07-2012, 20:26   #23
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Why do people keep resurrecting gunkid's threads?
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Old 02-07-2012, 20:58   #24
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Old 02-08-2012, 00:51   #25
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