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Old 05-01-2011, 08:09   #1
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u don't shoot groups on dodging targets

The sort of men who are dangerous to you know to use cover, darkness, smoke, dust, precipitation, high winds, movement and covering fire, so all this precision shooting in combat talk is just that, talk, and it's the bunk. kThe reality is that most hits in combat are random accidents, guys don't aim and in most cases, could not hit if they did aim, because of the conditions stated above. Over 90% of the rifle hit sin combat occur at less than 100m, guys, and large % of men can't bring themselves to fire at other men, at ranges where they can see their faces. All these statements are backed up (can't remember the author, sorry). Many such studies have been done, since WW2. They are the reason why the Army quit bothering to teach precision fire or position shooting.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:32   #2
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The author is Grossman, and the books are On Combat and On Killing. You should note that Grossman makes a point of the fact that MOST people are not natural shooters - only about 5-15% are. BUT you can train someone to become a shooter with the proper training technique. So, if you note his latter work, he shows that WWII and Korea had rates of fire of about 10-15%, but RVN had >90%! Those were attributed to "Two Shot - Quick Kill" training.

The Army quit bothering to teach precision shooting because they bought into the theory that combat occurs at <300m, and that reactive shooting at such ranges will get you the hits they are looking for. That was validated in the jungles of RVN - but in the sandbox it has suddenly become wrong.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:20   #3
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Positional shooting sets the foundation for MOUT (or CQB for the civies here). Without the ability to shoot your weapon accuratly from the prone, sitting, kneeling, standing how would you expect to hit someone while moving, while they are behind cover or moving themselves?

The designated marksmen role has been expanding the last decade or so and proving to be a very important part to the infantry squad, at least as important as SAW gunners like myself and supplement that position very well.

tap, when you get old enough, go enlist into a combat arms MOS then talk to me about combat.
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:17   #4
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
The sort of men who are dangerous to you know to use cover, darkness, smoke, dust, precipitation, high winds, movement and covering fire, so all this precision shooting in combat talk is just that, talk, and it's the bunk. kThe reality is that most hits in combat are random accidents, guys don't aim and in most cases, could not hit if they did aim, because of the conditions stated above. Over 90% of the rifle hit sin combat occur at less than 100m, guys, and large % of men can't bring themselves to fire at other men, at ranges where they can see their faces. All these statements are backed up (can't remember the author, sorry). Many such studies have been done, since WW2. They are the reason why the Army quit bothering to teach precision fire or position shooting.
No, as an armed civilian the people who are dangerous to me are: gang banger thugs, burglars, drug dealers, drug addicts, and the occasional general psychopath.

none of which are particularly well disciplined in field craft - nor are very they proficient with the use of firearms (Hollywood non withstanding.) as a moderately well trained and drilled armed Civilian - I am already better equipped both equipment and doctrine than any domestic criminal I'm likely to encounter.
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:54   #5
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"...the Army quit bothering to teach precision fire or position shooting."

Just because the Army quit bothering to teach it doesn't mean the Army method is the best method. The Marines still value the skills of the rifleman and so teach the proper use of the rifle. Join the Marine Corps, Tap to see if your point of view changes.

The discipline of position shooting and its promotion of the skillful use of the rifle is still a tremendous foundation for any rifleman who values accurate shot placement.

"Spray and pray" is a contemptible replacement but seems to be popular with the younger generation who enjoy owning their particular favorite semi-auto rifle but can't be bothered to actually get to know it.

Marksmanship will never go out of style.

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Old 05-08-2011, 19:13   #6
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I don't know what MOS doesn't teach marksmanship anymore. I was a cavalry scout and trained closely with infantry. The combat arms MOS's still need to be the all around war fighter. The difference in the training is that all range time is not strictly dedicated hit that 300m target. Marksmanship has to be your base. I don't know how many people experienced being at a full sprint in 60-80 pounds of kit then having to place accurate fire at your enemy. You don't have the time to get into that perfect prone/kneeling/standing posisition and pull that perfect trigger squeeze. In reality your heart is pounding so hard it's making you deaf and you body is pulling all the blood from your arms and legs etc.. If didn't train for the awkward ways you would have pull off a shot may it be a semi accurate one your behind the game. Marksmanship is still being taught but in a different capacity.
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Old 05-08-2011, 23:52   #7
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Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
"...the Army quit bothering to teach precision fire or position shooting."

Just because the Army quit bothering to teach it doesn't mean the Army method is the best method. The Marines still value the skills of the rifleman and so teach the proper use of the rifle. Join the Marine Corps, Tap to see if your point of view changes.

The discipline of position shooting and its promotion of the skillful use of the rifle is still a tremendous foundation for any rifleman who values accurate shot placement.

"Spray and pray" is a contemptible replacement but seems to be popular with the younger generation who enjoy owning their particular favorite semi-auto rifle but can't be bothered to actually get to know it.

Marksmanship will never go out of style.
Careful... I resemble that remark (younger generation part anyway -1970's vintage over here) Ammo ain't cheap - and is hard to get in quantity in my neck of the woods. I don't waste it
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:08   #8
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Cavscout, no one is saying not to also train for practical shooting. But if you have a solid foundation in basic marksmanship then everything else becomes easier and you will shoot better no matter the situation.

If you train your body to squeeze the trigger smoothly and keeping proper sight alignment on target to the point of muscle memory the shooting while moving to contact, MOUT, or while laying in ambush and shooting moving targets all becomes second nature.

BTW at 27 ive never bump fired a weapon, or fired an unaimed shot.That doesnt mean I havnt done some fast shooting, I just aim fast.
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Old 05-09-2011, 19:44   #9
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I was trained by a Marine Sharpshooter. My good ol Dad. I took his training into the Army, and was the best shot on post until I went up against some real snipers at Benning and Campbell. That's when my real training began. If you don't have some amount of discipline in the art of shooting, then stick to plinking your .223

And if most of the hits these days are "random accidents" then people are just plain wasting ammo. Not the best sort of people to have watching your back. I buy my own ammo these days, and don't like to waste it, so I tend to hit what I aim at.

Key word here is "AIM".
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Old 07-12-2011, 14:56   #10
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Methinks that you are getting different ideas confused about different shooting concepts. For some troops the idea of aimed fire as you call it would be what some call general combat shooting. For some troops there is a distinct need for precision shooting as done by snipers. With the advent of new tactical scopes like the SUSAT and the ACOG, those devices basically cover the general combat shooting needs of most troops. With all the new precision sniper scopes, new caliber rifles and so on precision shooting as done by snipers gets covered rather well too. And actually, to say that the Army no longer teaches aimed fire isn't quite right. What they've done with the addition of the low power tactical scopes is take aimed fire to a new direction. They still teach it but not in the old way it was taught to which you refer. Their new methods revolve around the scopes. So don't always take things that you read so literal. Think about what replaces the older methods first.
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Old 07-15-2011, 19:43   #11
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It has been a while since I have seen such obvious trolling allowed to continue on a forum. Are there no moderators here?

If aimed accurate fire no longer matters we are wasting a lot of money on sights and rifling in the barrels.

And we still require our soldiers to QUALIFY with their rifles when we do not expect them to hit anything?

It seems I remember the International Red Cross doing an investigation into the excessive number of head shots achieved by the Marines in the Fallujah campaign. They discovered the shots were being taken at 300+- yards.

Apparently someone is still aiming at dodging targets and they are hitting them enough to draw international attention.
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Old 07-15-2011, 21:20   #12
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I miss Tap...
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Old 07-17-2011, 10:40   #13
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Originally Posted by GDKPIKPWG View Post
I miss Tap...
Relax, take a breath, exhale.....Now take up the slack and press the trigger. If you still miss him rezero.
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Old 08-02-2012, 00:38   #14
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Thanks for useful information, i will read both books On Combat and On Killing later for what he says.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:04   #15
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Originally Posted by davidjohn View Post
Thanks for useful information, i will read both books On Combat and On Killing later for what he says.
also, if you think Tap had anything useful to say - don't forget MAD magazine
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:12   #16
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Originally Posted by Mr. Snuffalupagus View Post
No, as an armed civilian the people who are dangerous to me are: gang banger thugs, burglars, drug dealers, drug addicts, and the occasional general psychopath.

none of which are particularly well disciplined in field craft - nor are very they proficient with the use of firearms (Hollywood non withstanding.) as a moderately well trained and drilled armed Civilian - I am already better equipped both equipment and doctrine than any domestic criminal I'm likely to encounter.
USMCRONIN: Semper fi!

TAP: You sir, are a nutjob

He has a good point, but you also have a point in a SHTF bad scenario. You guys both have related opinions. I have served, but now I am a sheepdog BTW.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:16   #17
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