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Old 08-10-2011, 13:49   #1
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evolution or adam and eve?

interesting article:

Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve : NPR

thoughts?
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Old 08-10-2011, 14:45   #2
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Originally Posted by bitstream5 View Post
Garbage. Who didnt know NPR would find some evangelical's with no faith. If evolution is true why havent other animals evolved? Since the beginning of humans keeping records show me animals that have evolved into something else.
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Old 08-10-2011, 18:19   #3
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Originally Posted by qwman68 View Post
Garbage. Who didnt know NPR would find some evangelical's with no faith. If evolution is true why havent other animals evolved? Since the beginning of humans keeping records show me animals that have evolved into something else.
i think the time scale is an important consideration here. humans are just a blip in the history of our planet at this point. however, experiments with bacteria and other short life cycle organisms may be used to demonstrate evolution. i.e. antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria have evolved through the process of natural selection.

larger life forms with longer life spans evolve much more slowly and human record-keeping (with an eye for evolutionary change) is fairly limited at this point. however, closely related but isolated population of certain life forms clearly demonstrate evolution and natural selection. additionally, analysis of millions of years of fossil records may be used to demonstrate evolutionary trends in all sorts of species.

you should read Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species". that is a good starting point any way.

unlike some, i don't think evolution and natural selection is inconsistent with faith based religions. i just think folks take literalism too seriously, especially in light of the fact that allegory is clearly a primary mode of religious teaching.
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Old 08-10-2011, 18:42   #4
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If we cannot believe that portion of the bible, why even read it at all? For none of us is sufficient to determine what is bible truth, and what is bible fiction...it has to be a matter of faith. Personally, I'm going to be honest, no hypocrite, and either believe it all, or believe none of it at all.

And it is the bible that plainly states, while giving Jesus' family tree, and after a long list of many generations, that Cainan, "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38. Oh wait! There's Adam after all.

It's that evolution thing, isn't it? Well, instead of guessing, why not see what the Word has to say about it?

For instance, whenever God determined to create, whether it be the heaven and the earth, the fishes, fowls, cattle, animals, we are told that, "God said....Let there be". "And God said, Let there be light", "And God said, Let there be a firmament", "Let the waters under the firmament be gathered together", "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass", "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament", "And God said, Let the waters bring forth", "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creatures". All of these in Genesis chapter one.

Lots of God saying, "Let there be..." and the result was the creation and foundation of the earth and life as we know it. But finally, when it came time to create man, God didn't say, "Let there be".

For at this point, with the creation of man, God changed His voice, and changed His words, "And God said, LET US MAKE MAN". Gen 1:26.

God spoke all of creation into existence, with the singular exception of man. In that instance, instead of speaking man into existence, as with the animals, birds, all of life, God, with His own hands, made man. God actually formed man, breathed His breath (man's spirit, but something of God nonetheless) into man, and man became something nothing else on earth could be, and that is, a living soul.

So, one of the most important tenets of evolution is that all of life on this planet faced similar pressures for survival, thus the phrase, "The survival of the fittest". They all faced weather, hot, cold, predators, sickness. And in the fight for survival, survival of the fittest, man was most fit.

But if man were created or spoken into existence as had been the animals, how is it that the gap, the abyss, between man and animals is so huge? For both man, and animals, faced the identical environmental pressures for survival, from the teeny, tiniest amoeba and upward.

Why not just let me ask you this question? If beavers, who are dam builders just as man is, are given another ten million years of evolution, will they develop hydroelectric dams, providing electricity for their little beaver houses, along with air conditioners so they can relax in their little beaver recliners, eating cottonwood ice cream and watching the Beaver channel on television?

The very thought is absurd, isn't it? Well, then how about any other animal you might care to name? Will they develop symphonies? Well they develop emotions and cry at the majestic music they've created? Will they thrill to scary movies, experiencing shivers going up and down their spines? Will they turn the life force we call sex into an industry? Will they create artificial materials for building their homes? Will they write poetry? Will they invent musical instruments, computers, articial modes of transportation, doctors, colleges, teeth whitening strips, ad infinitum? And finally, will they dispute the very existence of the very God that spoke them into existence?

Even with 100 million more years of evolution?

The gaping abyss between man and all other forms of life on this planet is so huge, so bottomless, that it totally negates the possibility that mankind is the product of evolution...but was instead created by God Himself.

But, the fool has said in his heart there is no God....And if there is no God, then quite naturally, there was no Adam and Eve.
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Old 08-25-2011, 18:58   #5
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Science has found DNA . And that being said, all it has done is prove that animals and man are not kin, we have a common creator. All science has ever done is verify a creator. Darwine has a opinion thats all
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:04   #6
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...

Foundational confessions of faith from the Protestant Reformation assume a historical Adam, and official Roman Catholicism defined this teaching at the 1546 Council of Trent, in the 1950 encyclical Humani Generis of Pope Pius XII (who cautiously allowed leeway for humanity's bodily evolution), and in the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church. The broader public is intrigued, more so than by many other biblical topics; a 2005 Gallup Poll found that 40 percent of Americans think the various competing concepts of human origins matter "a great deal."

So, is the Adam and Eve question destined to become a groundbreaking science-and-Scripture dispute, a 21st-century equivalent of the once disturbing proof that the Earth orbits the sun? The potential is certainly there: the emerging science could be seen to challenge not only what Genesis records about the creation of humanity but the species's unique status as bearing the "image of God," Christian doctrine on original sin and the Fall, the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke, and, perhaps most significantly, Paul's teaching that links the historical Adam with redemption through Christ (Rom. 5:12-19; 1 Cor. 15:20-23, 42-49; and his speech in Acts 17).

The rethinking on Adam is an outgrowth of mainstream evolutionary thought that has long been the object of evangelical hostility (though the hostility has always been hotter at the grassroots than among professional scientists). One option, which consistently enjoys support from at least 40 percent of the general public in Gallup surveys, is "young earth" creationism. As writers with Answers in Genesis, in commenting on recent developments, insisted, "God created the mature, fully functioning creation in six literal days about 6,000 years ago." If substantiated, this would of course demolish Darwinism because such a brief chronology offers no time for evolutionary processes to occur. Questions about that sort of time frame have provoked renewed defense of young earth creationism in Southern Baptist Convention circles. But even the late James Montgomery Boice, founding chair of the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, which insisted on a historical Adam, thought various scientific findings make it "hard to believe" in a recent creation.
...
The Search for the Historical Adam | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

Christianity isn't going anywhere, but "young earth creationism" is totally untenable from an evidential standpoint. The only evidence to the contrary is an interpretation of the Old Testament forced onto the text thousands of years after it was written.

Here's some of the latest research into human DNA:

If your heritage is non-African, you are part Neanderthal, according to a new study in the July issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution. Discovery News has been reporting on human/Neanderthal interbreeding for some time now, so this latest research confirms earlier findings.

Damian Labuda of the University of Montreal's Department of Pediatrics and the CHU Sainte-Justine Research Center conducted the study with his colleagues. They determined some of the human X chromosome originates from Neanderthals, but only in people of non-African heritage.

"This confirms recent findings suggesting that the two populations interbred," Labuda was quoted as saying in a press release. His team believes most, if not all, of the interbreeding took place in the Middle East, while modern humans were migrating out of Africa and spreading to other regions.

The ancestors of Neanderthals left Africa about 400,000 to 800,000 years ago. They evolved over the millennia mostly in what are now France, Spain, Germany and Russia. They went extinct, or were simply absorbed into the modern human population, about 30,000 years ago.
...
All Non-Africans Part Neanderthal, Genetics Confirm : Discovery News

Fascinating stuff. God made a complex, wonderful and often bewildering world. When we try to define it in ways that fit what we think is our need for certainty (or what we think is others' need for certainty, esp. children), often as not we only succeed in causing confusion and needless strife down the road. How many reach a point where they have to face up to the fact their preacher or denomination (or non-denomination) requires belief in something they know is not true? Happens all the time. Then what?

I do not believe God intends Genesis to be read as science or history in the modern sense. I know there's no way to figure out what literally happened in the garden of Eden, and no book or video from "Answers in Genesis" or anyone else can change that. The Bible is clear about what we should focus on, and that sort of stuff is not it.
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Old 08-26-2011, 20:01   #7
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What about the tower of Babal and the different lanquages and the moving apart of the people
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Old 08-26-2011, 21:03   #8
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Genesis 10 NIV - The Table of Nations This is the - Bible Gateway

Seems to me they were the offspring of the survivors of the Flood, so no wonder they all spoke the same language before being scattered once their numbers had multiplied again.
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Old 08-27-2011, 16:42   #9
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I do not believe God intends Genesis to be read as science or history in the modern sense.
Such is the basis for modern humanism (above), substituting human wisdom in place of what God has clearly told us in His Word. God has given us the Book of Genesis in order that man may know his beginnings, not forget them, and most certainly to teach children the absolute truth about human history. Genesis is, at its very core, an historic foundation. And, though not a book about science, it also reveals absolute truth with every mention of scientific facts in our history.
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Old 08-27-2011, 23:39   #10
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The ongoing work of understanding what God has clearly told us in His word is not "substituting human wisdom" for God's.

What may be, though, is imposing a set of modern-day interpretations on the original text.

BTW, I hope by quoting my sentence, but putting part of it in bold and underline in such a way that by itself it would mean something entirely different from its original intent - my original intent - you're not trying to misquote me.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:21   #11
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What if this guy is right?
What if the "Astronaut" that did the genetic work was God? Wouldn't that mean that evolution AND creationism are both correct?

....and if nothing else, he has an explaination for bigfoot! LOL


(Part 2 looks like it has been deleted)
(1/8)

Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye [2 of 8]
Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye 3/8
Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye [4 of 8]
Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye 5/8
Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye 6/8
Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye 7/8
Human Origins : Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye 8/8
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Old 08-28-2011, 15:32   #12
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I suppose it's a question for much larger brains that those here...but I wonder why it is that so many find it so easy to believe in anything BUT God, and so difficult to believe in God?

Science has discredited itself in so many ways, as to be laughable. I'd have much more respect for archeology for instance, did they not ascribe human sacrifice to every large historical monument on the planet. And they can get that from bone fragments that may well span centuries in their having been laid down there? Give me a break...

If the archeologists can so confidently point to small bone fragments, tiny bits of pottery, and great big stone monuments as unfailing evidence that early man was a rabid and avid consumer of early man, either via sacrifice or just dining in general...

Why can't I just as confidently point to archeology as a hoax, and archeologists as frauds, based solely upon their own lack of evidence, and their much overworked imaginations. And of course, the need to titillate the public appetite for perversion...in order to insure they get that television show produced, presented and heavily viewed, thereby enriching their own pocket books. (Yeah, some preachers do that too...but we're talking about God, not about charlatans of whatever stripe).

And why is it that those who are so feverishly striving to negate God, refuse to look at the evidence of God that's been here since the beginning? Evidence that does not require a degree in this or that science or discipline, nor expensive field trips and digs and research projects to find, examine, and believe? All they need do, or refuse to do as the case may be, is to look up.

For, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. Psalm 19:1-6.

There is no language where their voices are not heard, for the evidence of the recognition and acknowledgement of a higher power is as strongly exhibited in the human being, every human being, though not as readily quantified perhaps, as is DNA (which in itself is conclusive evidence of our common ancestry allied with Adam, "...which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.)

This anti-God sentiment is all very well for those who do not wish to believe. But for those who have looked up at the heavens and wondered, and exclaimed,

"O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!" Psalm 8.

Some people may buy it, the science hype and the fraud. But for those who've made Jesus an everyday intimate element of their lives, who've seen genuine miracles, who've known the presence of the Holy Spirit...a hoax is a hoax, and a fraud a fraud, regardless of how you package and attempt to sell it.

And regardless of who else may buy it.
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Old 08-28-2011, 16:48   #13
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A men, sahagan. I'd like to add that in the beginning every thing went bad when Eve listined to satin and Adam listined to eve. no one listened to God. I have listened to satin long enough.Ill be listening to God from now on

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Old 09-12-2011, 14:56   #14
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I agree with Ray Comfort. All you need to disprove evoloution are eyes that see or a brain that works. To think something came from nothing is just crazy. When you see a building, you know there was a builder. The building is proof there was a builder. Same thing with a painting and a painter. Creation is proof there was a creator. To believe that nothing created everything, well, thats just crazy.
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:38   #15
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man's origin and evolution comes from a variety of theories and scientific studies, and add up here religion, whew!
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Old 09-13-2011, 16:05   #16
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"To believe that nothing created everything, well, thats just crazy."

I don't know if it's crazy or not Lead Slanger...but it certainly is incomprehensible.

I mean, think about it. Can you comprehend, even grasp in your mind, true nothingness...then add to that the true nothingness you cannot grasp in your mind, creating the universe, you and me?

If it's okay with you, I'll put my faith in a God I can feel in my spirit, that I can see in the stars, in the works of His hands, and in the things He has made...instead of putting my faith in a nothingness I cannot feel, cannot see, cannot comprehend.

And the scientists who believe in a nothingness they cannot comprehend, nor see, accuse those of us who believe in God....of practicing 'blind' faith. Give me a break...
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Old 09-14-2011, 18:33   #17
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Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post
"To believe that nothing created everything, well, thats just crazy."

I don't know if it's crazy or not Lead Slanger...but it certainly is incomprehensible.

I mean, think about it. Can you comprehend, even grasp in your mind, true nothingness...then add to that the true nothingness you cannot grasp in your mind, creating the universe, you and me?

If it's okay with you, I'll put my faith in a God I can feel in my spirit, that I can see in the stars, in the works of His hands, and in the things He has made...instead of putting my faith in a nothingness I cannot feel, cannot see, cannot comprehend.

And the scientists who believe in a nothingness they cannot comprehend, nor see, accuse those of us who believe in God....of practicing 'blind' faith. Give me a break...
I don't think you are understanding what I'm trying to say.

What I mean is, to believe in evoloution, you have to believe that nothing created everything & to believe that is crazy. That would be like me looking at a painting and believing that there was no painter. We all know that's impossible. Since the painting exists, that is 100% proof that there was a painter. It works the same way with creation. Creation is 100% proof that there was a creator.

People choose not to believe in God even though the evidence that He exists is all around them. They are being willfully blind.

Basically, what I was trying to say is, evoloution is a bunch of bologna.
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:03   #18
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"Basically, what I was trying to say is, evoloution is a bunch of bologna".

Yes it is...but belief in God, and in His creating the world is also a matter of faith and belief.

Here's a passage to mull over,

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3.

It boils down to where you want to put your faith. In God, or in some other mysterious force that brought about creation through some sort of mysterious process, that remains unseen and unproven to this day.

I'll take belief in God.

I've seen miracles, incontrovertible, undeniable miracles, sometimes almost on a daily basis. I've seen love, trust, envy, care, courage, charity, even dying for a fellowman. I've seen sacrifice, faith, majesty, sorrow...all of those things and many more 'created' in man, out of His belief in God.

I've never seen one thing (except fraudulently raising money) created out of the no God creation.
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Old 09-16-2011, 16:07   #19
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Originally Posted by Lead Slanger View Post
People choose not to believe in God even though the evidence that He exists is all around them. They are being willfully blind.
Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post

It boils down to where you want to put your faith. In God, or in some other mysterious force that brought about creation through some sort of mysterious process, that remains unseen and unproven to this day.

I'll take belief in God.
So who's side do you think I'm on? I thought the line in my first quote would have give it away.

I still don't think you've exactly picked up on what I'm trying to say. I said in my first comment that I agree with Ray Comfort. Ray Comfort is an amazing evangelist. He started the Living Waters Ministry and has written several books, for example, "You can lead an athiest to evidence but you can't make him think". You should check him out, you would like him too. Google Living Water ministries and check out what him and Kirk Cameron have going on over there. They have a wonderful way of spreading the gospel in a way that gets people to listen. They do it by not by arguing over intellectual things, but by speaking directly to the conscience. It's good stuff.
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Old 09-16-2011, 16:59   #20
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Okay, so let me see if I get it right this time...

You agree with Ray Comfort. I agree with the Bible. So, are you right, and me wrong? Or am I right, and you wrong?

Time permitting though, I'll check out the ministry you mentioned, although, after my own biblical discipline is discharged, I have precious little time for other reading.

Hey, thank you!
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Old 09-18-2011, 15:16   #21
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Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post
Okay, so let me see if I get it right this time...

You agree with Ray Comfort. I agree with the Bible. So, are you right, and me wrong? Or am I right, and you wrong?

Time permitting though, I'll check out the ministry you mentioned, although, after my own biblical discipline is discharged, I have precious little time for other reading.

Hey, thank you!
Sahagan? Is that Greek for hard headed? JK

Just check out the videos on their website or on YouTube, you don't have to really read anything. We took the Way of the Master evangelism course in our Sunday School class and it really gives you good tools for sharing the gospel biblically & effectively.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:39   #22
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Thanks. Will do...although it's a concession I seldom make. But in deference to, and in recognition of your passion I'll do so.

But I will say I'm terribly committed to the biblical stance (which I assume is that you're talking about as well). I regard it as truth.

Oh, and I'm not anti-reading, in fact, I've been an insatiable reader since before I started grade school, way back in 1956.

But having read much of what passes for history, including church history, and all the church classics, I finally decided history is at best a fickle lover (too easily corrupted), and the church classics demonstrate too great a willingness to depart from scripture very early on. And if I'm anything, I am an adherent to the scriptures as codified in our Bible.

I'll catch you later...
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Old 09-21-2011, 17:02   #23
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Okay Lead Slanger;

I get it, I think. At least the Ford car analogy...Kind of "I am, therefore, I am (or must be)".

That I am, and that I know that I am, must testify to my truly being me. And being me, therefore I am. And if I am, and know that I am, then ipso facto, someone did indeed, create me.

Still though, I think I like Genesis 1:1 better. And Hebrews 11:3, and Psalm 19, and Psalm 8 and even Comfort's quotation from Romans chapter 1, along with Paul's messages in both Acts 14 and Acts 17.

But I'm looking at things from the (blessed) perspective of being a child of God, saved, and having faith therein, not as one who is seeking, all the while trying to deny God.

I'll look at the Comfort blogs at greater length when time permits.

And by the way, Thanks!
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Old 09-22-2011, 19:59   #24
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RE: evolution or adam and eve?

Why is it such a thing, to spend millions of different international currencies, spending of individuals' lifetimes, never mind the cost of printing supplies, electronic gadgets (like this one), and their insatiable power usage and billings from utility companies, to really examine -either- set of theorems?

It is obvious that we cannot invite Charles Darwin onto the "talk show circuit", to get inside more of his brain, then all that which he had written, as his finished theorem on Evolution.

It is obvious, that we cannot invite Providence onto these same 'talk show circuits', because to do so, there would be "somebody" who would gladly take the position of 'official spokesperson', which would discount the very intent of the original invitation for Divinity, not man, to explain that which has been published, concerning the theorem of Creation.

It is no bedtime story, that man has existed for a very long time. It is a theorem that -I- hold, that there are untold 'forgetten through the ages' cities, buried under all that ice, at either axial pole.

Surely, our ancestors of our ancestors, recognized that 'we are here now', and did not concern themselves with this silliness, as to which means the human race began.

Yes, there are a great many annals of ecclesiastical laws, rules, guides, and proverbs, from all over the Earth, from all spans of time and peoples.

For me to say that, one set is greater than the other, after reading them side by side and seeing a small thread of commonality, I cannot.

There is one set of writings that I will not defend, because it is dichotomous, in its dealings with children and foreigners, and that is the book supposedly written by someone named Mohammed. I will say no more on this book.

To live now, speak the truth, do not cheat your friends, love your country, love your woman, and honor the Deities, as you yourself see fit, should be all that should be expected of anyone.

I think those are enough challenges for an individual to uphold on one's lifetime.
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Old 09-30-2011, 19:03   #25
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intellectual currency or respectability they have."
I would say this is why so many attempt to turn the world in to their thought of of belief to assimilate to make a copy of what they are.
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