Religion Chit Chat This is a place for all religious talk.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-19-2011, 12:28   #1
anti-capitalist
Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
freesw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: A fundamentally transformed America
Posts: 22,669
How belief in the "imminent" rapture harms the Church

We are urged to always be ready, as our own end can come at any time, "as a thief in the night." We are also advised to observe the signs of the times, and who can doubt that there are many signs that the culmination of history may be at hand. From the return of many Jews to the holy land, to the proliferation of nuclear weapons, to the apparent apostasy of much of Christendom, the last half century has seemed full of the signs of Jesus' return, and many have predicted just that.

But do we have any reason whatsoever to expect Jesus' imminent return? Only if by "imminent," we mean that it can happen at any time. Anything else is presumption. We are also instructed to occupy until He returns. When we become pre-occupied with eschatology, we lose focus on our real calling. "End Times" expectations can tempt us away from the more mundane tasks of life, distracting us and even providing ready justifications for practices that are not biblically sound.

For example, how often do we find in the scriptures the teaching that we should be wise, prudent, prepared? Often, correct? Yet now many presume there is no need to take care of their own affairs for the long haul, nor any need to preserve the natural world on which we all depend for our survival. And on which an innumerable number of future generations may also depend. This presumption is so clearly contrary to scripture, that it's hard to believe it's so widely violated within the institutional churches. But is is.
Christian-right views are swaying politicians and threatening the environment | Grist

"End Times" fever may subside as the generation born before 1948 dies, but that's going to take some time. The churches (plural because this refers only to individual denominations and movements, not the Church as a whole) that promote the idea that Christ will return within the lives of those now living, are going to have a lot to answer for if, a few decades from now, we are all living with the negative consequences of the irresponsible short-sightedness that ran rampant within these churches for over half a century. It's very simple, really. How can one presume to know God's will, when He plainly told us not to do that? "No one knows the day or hour," how much more clear can it be? There is no hidden code in the Bible that answers this question. No checklist. The Church rejected Gnosticism over 1700 years ago, yet a modern form of it is all the rage, and the consequences are horrific.
__________________
Because ye have said, ... "we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves" ...
Isaiah 28:15-17
freesw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 17:09   #2
Super Member
Points: 23,705, Level: 94 Points: 23,705, Level: 94 Points: 23,705, Level: 94
Activity: 1.5% Activity: 1.5% Activity: 1.5%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,124
Very good.
__________________
"I have no issues with people of all types being here, I do have a problem with the more extreme ends of any spectrum trying to dominate and push out moderates and opposites." Bill Plein
gossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 21:37   #3
Full Member
Points: 854, Level: 15 Points: 854, Level: 15 Points: 854, Level: 15
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
I have went down that path of panic thinking we were at end of times and my faith walked me back. I am here to help with God's work regardless of circumstance. Faith, Hope and Love are the only emotions worth expending any energy on. I feel that we all will be at peril's door, not at our choosing, but His. Thanks for posting the link to the insightful article, it allows me to see that others, who have a past of being "committed" to their faith have so little now. As always, when your feet are being held to the fire, just how faithful are you and can you maintain your Faith? I have seen many of the strongest, mentally capable, professing, practicing Christians, lose their Faith in many situations and it always makes me ponder, "What do I have, they don't?"
__________________
Getting ready for the games we play.
greggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 12:58   #4
Super Member
Points: 23,705, Level: 94 Points: 23,705, Level: 94 Points: 23,705, Level: 94
Activity: 1.5% Activity: 1.5% Activity: 1.5%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,124
Greg, we all struggle. What is important is to not lose sight of the big picture. What helps is having someone as a stronger mentor to be a person we can go to and talk. In my faith tradition we have the long standing practice of seeing our father/confessor on a regular basis, confessing, and being reminded that union w/ Christ is the goal. There is a story of a monk being asked by a layperson on what he did all day at the monastery. He said " nothing. I fall down, get up, and fall down...all day long". We are going to struggle, without it we cannot grow. But we don't have to struggle alone, and that is the hardest thing for one to realize. It is all dependant on Grace, which he freely gives.
__________________
"I have no issues with people of all types being here, I do have a problem with the more extreme ends of any spectrum trying to dominate and push out moderates and opposites." Bill Plein
gossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 02:31   #5
Full Member
Points: 24,638, Level: 95 Points: 24,638, Level: 95 Points: 24,638, Level: 95
Activity: 99.7% Activity: 99.7% Activity: 99.7%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,433
I agree. The Bible says that "no man knows the day nor the hour" and yet many who claim to be "scholars" seem to think that they are somehow divinely priveledged in spite of what it says. For over 100 various denominations have been set up for dismal failure through the rapture doctrine. Don't worry, be happy, you have a free ticket out of all the suffering. Indeed, nothing could be further from the truth! Christ himself told us that we would have to suffer; I can't believe the audacity of those who think that they are just a bit more informed than Jesus.

When bad things do happen to these folks that believe as such they fold and crumble, never having been prepared for any type of adversity in their lives. I wouldn't want to be the ones who spread this dogma on judgement day for sure! (I'll have enough to account for as it is...)
Parnelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 18:05   #6
Full Member
Points: 6,554, Level: 53 Points: 6,554, Level: 53 Points: 6,554, Level: 53
Activity: 8.5% Activity: 8.5% Activity: 8.5%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 497
I seldom agree with Free, but in this I do, The Bible says that we are to be prepared for the return of Christ. We are not to worry when it is to happen, just to be doing His work Until one of two things happens, we eithe die or He returns.
Rifleman55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2011, 17:59   #7
Full Member
Points: 18,011, Level: 85 Points: 18,011, Level: 85 Points: 18,011, Level: 85
Activity: 52.4% Activity: 52.4% Activity: 52.4%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: behind usmc w/size 14 boot in 'his' @ss
Posts: 4,767
add me to the agreeers with free. noone knows the day. and those that 'set the day' do damage the Christ centered Church.
however when the temple is rebuilt atop the mount - and it will be and the 2 witnesses appear and begin to prophesy - then look for lots of things to begin happening quickly.
__________________
'the beatings will continue until morale improves'
Marlin 45 carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 06:18   #8
Full Member
Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
plumbernater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 262
A men.The story Jesus told about the virgins and their lamps ,the ones that did nothing but wait till their oil ran out were left behind. That tells me to take care of my business till I die or He returns
plumbernater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 08:13   #9
Full Member
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 101
Yep

Gotta agree with free on this one.
bigdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 17:41   #10
Full Member
Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: western Kentucky
Posts: 97
I suspect this error might be doing more harm than good. For after all, according to Paul, "For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth." 2 Cor 13:8.

This doctrine, this rapture thing, has probably generated more interest in the bible, in the last days, and in the Lord's return, than any other single element of life today. For instance, look at the books, the sermons, the lessons, the seminars, the debate that has swallowed the Christian world....

And if just a few dedicated seekers of truth should happen to actually open their bibles, and actually read them (!), looking for themselves, they would certainly find the truth regarding the rapture.

They'll find that John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, and John 6:54 all quote Jesus as saying, "I will raise him/it up at the last day".

Jesus says to Martha, about the resurrection at the last day, concerning her dead brother Lazarus, "Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:23-24.

Jesus didn't correct Martha, saying that "He will rise at the rapture well before the last day"....

And in John 5, Jesus puts it even more straitly, with, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice." John 5:28.

But the commonly accepted 'rapture' passage tells us, that, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: "and the dead in Christ shall rise first": Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:14-17.

How does that square with "ALL that are in the graves hear his voice?"

And the parable of the tares? The enemy plants tares among the wheat. When the workers ask the farmer if he'd have them remove the tares, the farmer says to them, "...Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:29.

In His explanation of the parable, Jesus reverses the rapture, indicating that if a rapture occurs, it will be a rapture of the bad, and not of the good, "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 13:40-43.

Anything that causes people to go to their bibles, and study them, seeking for truth, is a good thing, for Jesus also said, very clearly, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened..." Matt 7:7-8.

If you ask of a movie, or seek it in any other book but the bible, and knock on anyone else's door but His, you cannot expect truth. For it is He that is the truth...And He is the Word.
Sahagan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 18:41   #11
Full Member
Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
plumbernater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 262
sahagen you are right all will be raised up The ones in the book of life to ever lasting life, and the ones that worked iniquity to ever lasting torment. We will all be eternal beings. Jesus is the only way to life eternal. Its something to think about.
plumbernater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 05:00   #12
Full Member
Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: western Kentucky
Posts: 97
From the moment God breathed into man the breath of life, (Gen 2:7) which is the spirit of man, man became eternal.

Yes, when we die, the spirit (of both good and bad, saints and sinners) returns to God who gave it, while the body returns to the earth, as it was (Ecc 12:7).

The spirit remains with God until the resurrection, as the body remains in the earth until the resurrection. At the resurrection both spirit and body are once again united, and man becomes once again, a 'living soul', only this time, he will experience no other death aside from the death of hell...as the result of judgment, where bad and good, saints and sinners will receive their rewards.
Sahagan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2011, 06:53   #13
KMOSuper Vendor
Super Vendor
Points: 20,383, Level: 90 Points: 20,383, Level: 90 Points: 20,383, Level: 90
Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7%
Last Achievements
 
KMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northern Arizona
Posts: 1,184
The phrase, "as a thief in the night" is used out of context from the very start of this thread. The Scriptures clearly state that it is the ungodly that will be surprised by the coming of the Lord. God's children, followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, are expecting this return, as He promised, and will not be caught off-guard...

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 1 Thessalonians 5:2-5

Believers are to live their lives as if the Lord might appear at any moment (yes, imminently), thus prompting us toward holiness and godliness in our daily conduct...

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" 2 Peter 3:7-12

As a footnote, we can take comfort that we are not subject to any man as our mediator to God, but we have direct access through Jesus Christ...

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5
__________________
"In God We Trust"
www.SunflowerAmmo.com

Last edited by KMO; 08-02-2011 at 09:11.
KMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 05:13   #14
Full Member
Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: western Kentucky
Posts: 97
Oh, so you would unemploy every priest in the world, and go to Jesus alone for prayer, supplication, intercession, help in time of need, comfort in time of sorrow and so forth?

(Yes, I would and do, too).
Sahagan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 06:54   #15
Full Member
Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
plumbernater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 262
Yes thats where I go as well. There is a storm on the horizon prepare for the coming of the LORD.
plumbernater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 12:03   #16
Full Member
Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: western Kentucky
Posts: 97
"Yes thats where I go as well. There is a storm on the horizon prepare for the coming of the LORD."

Even a quick reading of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 will indicate that we may well be approaching the last times, at increasing velocity daily.

And Christians aren't admonished to hide, to remove ourselves from the world, but rather, to serve as ambassadors for the Kingdom of God, in the midst of all the trial, tribulation and evil that surrounds us.

So I see our primary responsibilities as two fold, a) to pray for all,

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:1-4 (which happens to be the verses immediately prior to the last scriptural reference supplied by KMO in his last).

It's evident then, that if God would have all men to be saved, then someone must preach the gospel to all. If our praying for leaders, government and so forth, will give us the liberty and freedom to preach the Word to others, then pray we must....

And we need to exhibit the love of God the Father and Jesus Christ our Saviour in all aspects of our lives. For that is the most compelling witness to the world.

And b) To take care of our own spiritual lives, so that we might be ready, for tribulation, life, death, resurrection, whatever we're called to. And having done that, perhaps we will be able to stand before the judgement seat of Christ with loving anticipation of eternal life, instead of fear...and fear's unmerciful children.
Sahagan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 13:04   #17
Full Member
Points: 1,644, Level: 23 Points: 1,644, Level: 23 Points: 1,644, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 203
Originally Posted by freesw View Post
We are urged to always be ready, as our own end can come at any time, "as a thief in the night." We are also advised to observe the signs of the times, and who can doubt that there are many signs that the culmination of history may be at hand. From the return of many Jews to the holy land, to the proliferation of nuclear weapons, to the apparent apostasy of much of Christendom, the last half century has seemed full of the signs of Jesus' return, and many have predicted just that.

But do we have any reason whatsoever to expect Jesus' imminent return? Only if by "imminent," we mean that it can happen at any time. Anything else is presumption. We are also instructed to occupy until He returns. When we become pre-occupied with eschatology, we lose focus on our real calling. "End Times" expectations can tempt us away from the more mundane tasks of life, distracting us and even providing ready justifications for practices that are not biblically sound.

For example, how often do we find in the scriptures the teaching that we should be wise, prudent, prepared? Often, correct? Yet now many presume there is no need to take care of their own affairs for the long haul, nor any need to preserve the natural world on which we all depend for our survival. And on which an innumerable number of future generations may also depend. This presumption is so clearly contrary to scripture, that it's hard to believe it's so widely violated within the institutional churches. But is is.
Christian-right views are swaying politicians and threatening the environment | Grist

"End Times" fever may subside as the generation born before 1948 dies, but that's going to take some time. The churches (plural because this refers only to individual denominations and movements, not the Church as a whole) that promote the idea that Christ will return within the lives of those now living, are going to have a lot to answer for if, a few decades from now, we are all living with the negative consequences of the irresponsible short-sightedness that ran rampant within these churches for over half a century. It's very simple, really. How can one presume to know God's will, when He plainly told us not to do that? "No one knows the day or hour," how much more clear can it be? There is no hidden code in the Bible that answers this question. No checklist. The Church rejected Gnosticism over 1700 years ago, yet a modern form of it is all the rage, and the consequences are horrific.
great post!

i find the article on christians and the environment interesting. christians assuming that god will always provide for them are a larg part of the problem (as well as those who believe that 'the end is near' and therefore do not consider the environmental impacts of their behavior).

Aldo Leopold, a famous ecologist, stated "humans have an “Abrahamic concept of land. We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect”.

i would add that when we begin to see it as a gift from god and a loan from our children that is to be cared for, nurtured, and returned in better condition than we received it then we will begin to make progress.
bitstream5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 09:32   #18
anti-capitalist
Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
freesw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: A fundamentally transformed America
Posts: 22,669
The recovery of Christians who presume this is the "end times" generation would go a long way towards alleviating this problem, at least for this generation. It is a strange irony that many of the judgments described in the Book of Revelation sound a lot like environmental catastrophes. People sometimes wonder why God would command angels to do such things. Perhaps the answer can be found in part from the stage we ourselves set for them. It's just as pointless to try to figure out what exactly is going to happen as when, but the parallels are impossible to miss. Just as the return of Jews to the Holy Land and the spread of the means of evangelization throughout the world can be taken as signs of the times, so too is man's increasing capacity for mass-destruction. Though the latter are negative signs and those responsible will be judged accordingly.

When we burn ourselves, will Rush Limbaugh continue to assure us God will never allow that to happen, as he now routinely does? Limbaugh's not the only one with shallow understanding claiming God will not let us destroy ourselves by polluting and reckless overconsumption. It's a popular refrain from the heedless economic growth-at-all-costs crowd, feeding right into the wishful thinking of a nation glutted on materialism.
freesw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 10:16   #19
KMOSuper Vendor
Super Vendor
Points: 20,383, Level: 90 Points: 20,383, Level: 90 Points: 20,383, Level: 90
Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7%
Last Achievements
 
KMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northern Arizona
Posts: 1,184
The recovery of Christians who presume this is the "end times" generation would go a long way towards alleviating this problem, at least for this generation. It is a strange irony that many of the judgments described in the Book of Revelation sound a lot like environmental catastrophes. People sometimes wonder why God would command angels to do such things. Perhaps the answer can be found in part from the stage we ourselves set for them. It's just as pointless to try to figure out what exactly is going to happen as when, but the parallels are impossible to miss. Just as the return of Jews to the Holy Land and the spread of the means of evangelization throughout the world can be taken as signs of the times, so too is man's increasing capacity for mass-destruction. Though the latter are negative signs and those responsible will be judged accordingly.

When we burn ourselves, will Rush Limbaugh continue to assure us God will never allow that to happen, as he now routinely does? Limbaugh's not the only one with shallow understanding claiming God will not let us destroy ourselves by polluting and reckless overconsumption. It's a popular refrain from the heedless economic growth-at-all-costs crowd, feeding right into the wishful thinking of a nation glutted on materialism.
Hmmm...I suppose God must ascribe to Democrat political principles and radical environmentalist views? Oh, and surely Sodom and Gomorrah were not judged for the blatant outward sin of homosexuality (Genesis 13), but the residents simply burned themselves by damaging the localized ozone layer above them, and over-consuming their vast resources...

Truly, a distorted spiritual mindset breeds distorted doctrine, and ultimately a distorted world view.
__________________
"In God We Trust"
www.SunflowerAmmo.com
KMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 11:47   #20
anti-capitalist
Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
freesw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: A fundamentally transformed America
Posts: 22,669
Where is your evidence that my post indicates a "distorted spiritual mindset" or "distorted doctrine, and ultimately a distorted world view"?

All I see in your post aside from that unsubstantiated claim is a confused and anachronistic rhetorical question.

But, since you mention Sodom and Gomorrah ...

I see no reference to judgment "for the blatant outward sin of homosexuality," not in Genesis 13, nor 18 or 19.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NASB
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NASB
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NASB

The blatant sin described in Genesis 19 is attempted rape.

Homosexuality per se isn't listed among the sins of Sodom here, but the list is an interesting one for us to ponder:
Ezekiel 16:46-50

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

46 Now your older sister is Samaria, who lives [a]north of you with her [b]daughters; and your younger sister, who lives [c]south of you, is Sodom with her [d]daughters. 47 Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they. 48 As I live,” declares the Lord GOD, “Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not [e]help the poor and needy. 50 Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them [f]when I saw it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NASB

It could be among the "abominations," or that could mean other things including coerced homosexuality.

The first century Jewish chronicler Josephus does list "Sodomitical practices" among the sins of the Sodomites (presumably all their sins were "Sodomitical practices"):
CHAPTER 11.

HOW GOD OVERTHREW THE NATION OF THE SODOMITES, OUT OF HIS WRATH AGAINST THEM FOR THEIR SINS.

1. ABOUT this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, insomuch that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices. God was therefore much displeased at them, and determined to punish them for their pride, and to overthrow their city, and to lay waste their country, until there should neither plant nor fruit grow out of it.
...

3. When Abraham heard this, he was grieved for the Sodomites; and he rose up, and besought God for them, and entreated him that he would not destroy the righteous with the wicked. And when God had replied that there was no good man among the Sodomites; for if there were but ten such man among them, he would not punish any of them for their sins, Abraham held his peace. And the angels came to the city of the Sodomites, and Lot entreated them to accept of a lodging with him; for he was a very generous and hospitable man, and one that had learned to imitate the goodness of Abraham. Now when the Sodomites saw the young men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree, and that they took up their lodgings with Lot, they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence; and when Lot exhorted them to sobriety, and not to offer any thing immodest to the strangers, but to have regard to their lodging in his house; and promised that if their inclinations could not be governed, he would expose his daughters to their lust, instead of these strangers; neither thus were they made ashamed.
...
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm

I know homosexuality is condemned a few places elsewhere in the Bible. In the case of Sodom, though, it seems the sins of the Sodomites that most offended God were their pride, injustices, impiety, insobriety, lack of hospitality, and violence.

Last edited by freesw; 08-26-2011 at 18:06.
freesw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2011, 05:55   #21
KMOSuper Vendor
Super Vendor
Points: 20,383, Level: 90 Points: 20,383, Level: 90 Points: 20,383, Level: 90
Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7%
Last Achievements
 
KMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northern Arizona
Posts: 1,184
The sin of Sodom? Debatable? Honestly, if that is to be questioned, and modern texts used to substantiate a sin that was something less disgusting than what generations have known it to have been, I have little time to debate it. Let God's Word speak for itself (below). Just how did the word, sodomy, come about?

Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
__________________
"In God We Trust"
www.SunflowerAmmo.com
KMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 14:50   #22
Full Member
Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18 Points: 1,168, Level: 18
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: western Kentucky
Posts: 97
God spoke to us two speakings. One, to the fathers of Israel, He spoke by the prophets. And to us, in these latter days, He speaks by His Son.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1-2.

We know what God meant by Sodomy from plain evidence in the Old Testament. That in itself is sufficient to define it.

But Paul, speaking for God, speaking for His Son in these days, defines it in a more modern manner,

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans 1:26-27.

The destruction of Sodom by fire and brimstone was God's bringing to living reality this fact, that the inhabitants of Sodom were, "receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet", (see above). The 'recompence' meted to Sodom was utter destruction, death.

What I wonder, will be the recompence of their error meet for those who live after Sodom today?
Sahagan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 15:03   #23
anti-capitalist
Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100 Points: 71,256, Level: 100
Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6% Activity: 99.6%
Last Achievements
 
freesw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: A fundamentally transformed America
Posts: 22,669
Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post
We know what God meant by Sodomy from plain evidence in the Old Testament. That in itself is sufficient to define it.
You are mistaken. Nowhere does the word "sodomy" appear in the Bible. "The sins of Sodom" were many, among them attempted forcible rape.

Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post
But Paul, speaking for God, speaking for His Son in these days, defines it in a more modern manner,

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans 1:26-27.
No reference to Sodom there, so Paul defines no such thing.

Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post
The destruction of Sodom by fire and brimstone was God's bringing to living reality this fact, that the inhabitants of Sodom were, "receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet", (see above). The 'recompence' meted to Sodom was utter destruction, death.
You confuse two separate passages, one from Genesis and the other from Romans. The letter of Romans only references Sodom once, much later, in 9:29, but not in the passage you cited, and it has nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever.
And just as Isaiah foretold, “ UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”
And what does that passage of Isaiah say? Nothing about homosexuality.

Here is what God does say in the passage Paul referenced:
2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth;
For the LORD speaks,
“Sons I have reared and brought up,
But they have revolted against Me.
3 “An ox knows its owner,
And a donkey its master’s manger,
But Israel does not know,
My people do not understand.”

4 Alas, sinful nation,
People weighed down with iniquity,
[b]Offspring of evildoers,
Sons who act corruptly!
They have abandoned the LORD,
They have despised the Holy One of Israel,
They have turned away [c]from Him.

5 Where will you be stricken again,
As you continue in your rebellion?
The whole head is sick
And the whole heart is faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even to the head
There is nothing sound in it,
Only bruises, welts and raw wounds,
Not pressed out or bandaged,
Nor softened with oil.

7 Your land is desolate,
Your cities are burned with fire,
Your fields—strangers are devouring them in your presence;
It is desolation, as overthrown by strangers.
8 The daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard,
Like a watchman’s hut in a cucumber field, like a besieged city.
9 Unless the LORD of hosts
Had left us a few survivors,
We would be like Sodom,
We would be like Gomorrah.
God Has Had Enough
10 Hear the word of the LORD,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah.
11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the LORD.
“I [d]have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires [e]of you this trampling of My courts?
13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are [f]covered with blood.

16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
[g]Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
Originally Posted by Sahagan View Post
What I wonder, will be the recompence of their error meet for those who live after Sodom today?
The recompense for those who will not repent of their impiety, injustice, inhospitality and violence won't be pleasant.
freesw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 15:44   #24
Full Member
Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47 Points: 5,461, Level: 47
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
plumbernater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 262
What needs to be known is sin is sin to God, wether its sodomy or lying. Look at this country and what is OK here and now. If God does not destroy the US , should He owe sodom and gomora a opology. I pray for this country all the time . The Ninavites were spared after they repented. As Jona spent 3 days in the whale Jesus spent 3 days in the grave. We better pay attention to Hes teaching. From the beginning of the church Christians have been looking for Christ returning. As a theif in the night
plumbernater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2011, 07:16   #25
Full Member
Points: 404, Level: 8 Points: 404, Level: 8 Points: 404, Level: 8
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Lois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
At this point in my studies, it appears Jesus will return sometime After the 6th Seal is opened and BEFORE the 7th Seal is opened. That means as Christians/followers of Christ we should be prepared to go through the tribulation. Not the Great Tribulation - which is the Wrath of G_d, but the tribulation of man caused by satan. There are time frames in there we are to be watching for, just as Christ told His followers. Pre-Trib believers always see to forget what Christ himself taught.

With all the above said, we are told to be prepared - to be watching. So, even the Bible taught us to be PREPPERS !!!
Lois is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:10.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
All information is copyright by Perfectunion.com unless already under copyright.

This site is Gunny Approved