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Old 01-02-2007, 19:00   #1
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Question about Christmas

Why do people who do not believe in CHRIST celebrate CHRISTmas - is this not hypocritical of those that participate in this Christian Holiday yet do not believe in Christ at all. Is it not very very hypocritical for those that celebrate this time of year but also, persecute Christians and Christian beliefs.

I am curious. I know people that work very hard to remove God from public view but then take a free day off for work to celebrate someone's birthday they do not believe in.

So, for those of you who eschew Christ - but still celebrate and avail yourself of a free day off of work - please explain.

Regardless, I hope you had a Merry Christmas (and hopefully reflected on what the holiday is truly about) and have a wonderful and productive New Year.

May God Bless you all.

JimS
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Old 01-02-2007, 21:32   #2
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Originally Posted by JimS View Post
Why do people who do not believe in CHRIST celebrate CHRISTmas - is this not hypocritical of those that participate in this Christian Holiday yet do not believe in Christ at all. Is it not very very hypocritical for those that celebrate this time of year but also, persecute Christians and Christian beliefs.

I am curious. I know people that work very hard to remove God from public view but then take a free day off for work to celebrate someone's birthday they do not believe in.

So, for those of you who eschew Christ - but still celebrate and avail yourself of a free day off of work - please explain.

JimS
You're right, JimS, how DARE those patheitic "unbelievers" celebrate YOUR holliday meant EXCLUSIVELY for you righteous TRUE BELIEVERS only?

Shame on them and their undeserving brats, getting presents and shirking work like that!

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Old 01-03-2007, 02:46   #3
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Why is this not in the Religious discussion area?
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Old 01-03-2007, 05:10   #4
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Originally Posted by JimS View Post
Why do people who do not believe in CHRIST celebrate CHRISTmas - is this not hypocritical of those that participate in this Christian Holiday yet do not believe in Christ at all. Is it not very very hypocritical for those that celebrate this time of year but also, persecute Christians and Christian beliefs.

I am curious. I know people that work very hard to remove God from public view but then take a free day off for work to celebrate someone's birthday they do not believe in.

So, for those of you who eschew Christ - but still celebrate and avail yourself of a free day off of work - please explain.

Regardless, I hope you had a Merry Christmas (and hopefully reflected on what the holiday is truly about) and have a wonderful and productive New Year.

May God Bless you all.

JimS
I don't know Jim. Why are you celebrating a Pegan holiday known as Yule Tide or also known as the winter solstice along with a large amount of other Pegan holidays that were incorporated by the Roman Catholic Church to help convert Pegans into Christians? Theologists believe that Christ's actual birthday was on April 6th so if you wish to exclusively celebrate the birth of Christ then you can do it then with a big banner that says "Happy Birthday Jesus" but you are not allowed to use the following:
1) Christmas trees
2) Wreaths
3) Christmas lights or candles
4) Traditional Christmas foods such as pears
These are all Pegan traditions for the celebration of Yule Tide and they may get upset if you use something that exclusively accords to THEIR religious beliefs and not yours.

The fact is that in modern times, Christmas means more than just the representation for the birth of Christ. Despite the fact that this is the reason that I celebrate Christmas myself, not everyone is required to do so. It has come to represent the passing over of the year and a time for family to spend with eachother in peace and in retrospect of the old year and in celebration of the new. This is somewhat in the same regard that the Pegans celebrated it as it was the darkest time of year and so much was relying on the crops that they may have planted and the food that they had stored so they celebrated what they had and feasted with the family.

People have the right to celebrate despite the fact that they may not believe in the core intent of the holiday. Much the same as an abundance of people celebrate Halloween which is again, a Pegan holiday for the harvest. The origin of this was the Pegans would go from house to house to gather offerings for their Gods of nature so that they could have a successful harvest. If they were denied an offering, they would typically poke the person of the house in the groin with a pointed stick to show their distaste for that person's disrespect toward their Gods. Do people that celebrate Halloween today believe the same thing and practice it for the same reason? No...they don't.
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Old 01-03-2007, 08:23   #5
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There is alot of pagan ritutals that go along with the Christmas of today, like the evergreen tree was thought to be some type of god because it stays green all year round. The ornaments come from Europe as well as the idea of sharing gifts from St. Nick. As Christians we should look at this time to share our homes and ourselves with others. Good fellowship will win people over with love. There is no definately date on the birth but the place is written. Most scholars just go by it was cold time of year. I think Hallmark greeting cards is responsible for alot of the holidays we share today. Look for a chance to share today, don't wait till Christmas!

-tri
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Old 01-03-2007, 08:53   #6
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Why not just have Festivus and eliminate all the hassle.
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Old 01-03-2007, 09:03   #7
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Originally Posted by rapid223fire View Post
Why not just have Festivus and eliminate all the hassle.
Too pc, just keep it simple enjoy your own way, people want to change this one because xxx, then you have to change this too because xxxx.
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Old 01-03-2007, 15:59   #8
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Festivus For The Rest Of Us!

Thread moved to proper forum.
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:08   #9
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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
You're right, JimS, how DARE those patheitic "unbelievers" celebrate YOUR holliday meant EXCLUSIVELY for you righteous TRUE BELIEVERS only?

Shame on them and their undeserving brats, getting presents and shirking work like that!

Actually, I asked because I was curious. People want us to say Happy Holiday for Christmas. Why?? We are celebrating Christmas. I do not care if they Celebrate it - but just curios why. I do not celebrate Hanaka, Rhamadan, or Kwanza - because I do not believe in their faith.

So I am curious as to why someone that does not believe in Christ celebrates his birthday.

I take it by your tone you were put off by my question - but it is a valid question. It is your right to celebrate it if you are not a Christian but I have a hard time understanding why someone would go out of their way to celebrate something they do not believe in.

Sorry if I touched a nerve, perhaps you believe more than you think and just do not want to admit it.

JimS
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:20   #10
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Originally Posted by rapid223fire View Post
Why not just have Festivus and eliminate all the hassle.
Well at least you answered without getting angry about my question. If this is what people are doing then I guess I can see why they come so close together.

For my part, I celebrate Christ's birthday, mourn his death and rejoice in his resurrection. I celebrate my children's and wife's birthdays. I celebrate my wedding anniversary. I observe Memorial day in remembrance of those that came before and Veteran's day for those that sacrificed for our country. Labor day for those that work. 4th of July for the founding of our country and President's to honor all of our past and present President's. I rejoice at Thankgiving for all that God has provided. All of these have meaning - a reason. From what I can find Festivus is a PC way to try to get around having to admit that Christmas is what Christmas is - a religious observance with meaning.

Festivus is an explanation, but a creation without meaning from what I could find - Universalism at its worst (or best, if you are so inclined).
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:42   #11
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Honestly, I read only the origional post, so sorry for ignoring the rest of you, I mean no offence.

I can almost see the point of saying that you should not celebrate christmas if you do not bileve in Christ. But then, when you go to christmas mass, everything shown and everything done in the church, with exception to the breaking and taking of the bread and wine, and the cross with Christ on it, was taken from pagan rituals. The robe the priest wears......pagan. The colors picked on it.....pagan. The practice of music in church....pagan. Kneeling.....pagan. And the list goes on. It is a bunch of christians celebrating an entire list of things they do not bileve in. Do not celebrate false gods, but use the methods you used to celebrate them to celebrate me.

(BTW, find a priest, catholic is best, and ask him the history and origins of the mass. You will find that the above is true)

Take what you want from it. Christmas, christian celebrated or not, is a time for people to do good for each other. Can we just leave it at that?
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:42   #12
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Originally Posted by JimS View Post
I take it by your tone you were put off by my question

Sorry if I touched a nerve

Well at least you answered without getting angry about my question.
Ha ha ha!

JimS, do you know what this means?: []

There's three of them at the bottom of my post.

The "angry" face was obviously included as puncuation for sarcasm.

You would do much better if you didn't pretend to assume what my "tone" is, since you are so terrible at it.

What's next? Are you still going to tell me I was angry when I was actually laughing my a$$ off?

What am I now, JimS?


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Old 01-03-2007, 16:46   #13
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Originally Posted by rsidner View Post
I don't know Jim. Why are you celebrating a Pegan holiday known as Yule Tide or also known as the winter solstice along with a large amount of other Pegan holidays that were incorporated by the Roman Catholic Church to help convert Pegans into Christians? Theologists believe that Christ's actual birthday was on April 6th so if you wish to exclusively celebrate the birth of Christ then you can do it then with a big banner that says "Happy Birthday Jesus" but you are not allowed to use the following:
1) Christmas trees
2) Wreaths
3) Christmas lights or candles
4) Traditional Christmas foods such as pears
These are all Pegan traditions for the celebration of Yule Tide and they may get upset if you use something that exclusively accords to THEIR religious beliefs and not yours.

The fact is that in modern times, Christmas means more than just the representation for the birth of Christ. Despite the fact that this is the reason that I celebrate Christmas myself, not everyone is required to do so. It has come to represent the passing over of the year and a time for family to spend with eachother in peace and in retrospect of the old year and in celebration of the new. This is somewhat in the same regard that the Pegans celebrated it as it was the darkest time of year and so much was relying on the crops that they may have planted and the food that they had stored so they celebrated what they had and feasted with the family.

People have the right to celebrate despite the fact that they may not believe in the core intent of the holiday. Much the same as an abundance of people celebrate Halloween which is again, a Pegan holiday for the harvest. The origin of this was the Pegans would go from house to house to gather offerings for their Gods of nature so that they could have a successful harvest. If they were denied an offering, they would typically poke the person of the house in the groin with a pointed stick to show their distaste for that person's disrespect toward their Gods. Do people that celebrate Halloween today believe the same thing and practice it for the same reason? No...they don't.
Good you and I both know how to use Wikipedia (great isn't it). Also, I never said they could not celebrate - I am simply curious as to why. You profess Christianity and thus, I presume, celebrate for the reason I do - Christ's birthday.

I am aware that some of the items used to celebrate Christmas were stolen/borrowed from other cultures (PAgan included). I am also aware that the birth date of Christ is not entirely agreed upon. I am also aware that the Catholic Church set the date (since it was not really known for sure) to compete with Pagan religions. Paul used this tactic to get his message across to the Athenians (who must have been the first politically correct group - they had an unknown god; to cover all bases).

Acts 17:16-32
16*Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17* Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18* Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19*And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20*For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21*(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22* Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23*For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24*God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25*neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26*and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27*that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28*for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29*Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30*And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31*because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32*And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33*So Paul departed from among them. 34*Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
The fact is the word itself clarifies the subject being celebrated. Therefore, the rest of the argument made is an excuse given by apologists or those that favor the PC movement.
Christmas |?krism?s| noun ( pl. -mases ) the annual Christian festival celebrating Christ's birth, held on December 25. • the period immediately before and after December 25 : we had guests over Christmas. exclamation informal expressing surprise, dismay, or despair. DERIVATIVES Christmassy |-m?s?| adjective ORIGIN Old English Cr?stes mæsse (see Christ , Mass ).

Christ |kr?st| noun the title, also treated as a name, given to Jesus of Nazareth (see Jesus ). exclamation an oath used to express irritation, dismay, or surprise. PHRASES before Christ full form of BC . DERIVATIVES Christhood |-?ho?d| noun Christlike |-?l?k| adjective Christly adjective ORIGIN Old English Cr?st, from Latin Christus, from Greek Khristos, noun use of an adjective meaning ‘anointed,’ from khriein ‘anoint,’ translating Hebrew m?š?a? ‘Messiah.’
In closing, if the answer is as simple as Wikipedia indicates then there should be absolutely no problem with Merry Christmas - but that certainly does not appear to have been the case for the PC movement. So obviously there is a movement wanting to remove Christ from Christmas.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to respond.
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:54   #14
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A final thought

You know it never ceases to amaze me how quickly SOME people on this site attack when a question comes up like this.

Why not answer the question or simply ignore it if you are so inclined - but to attack with comments of indignity that I am trying to keep people from celebrating Christmas only serves to point to your insecurity or lack of tolerance (woo hoo, I get to use the T word).

This is quite the contrary to my wish. I pray that more will celebrate the only true symbol of Peace on Earth we have ever been blessed and accept the ultimate gift - that of hope and salvation.

I will leave the thread to go where it may, I do not feel like having to defend my faith yet again for simply asking a question (not even a loaded question). The great thing is, I do not have to defend my faith - Christ does that for me.

Good night.
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Old 01-03-2007, 16:58   #15
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Originally Posted by tri70 View Post
There is alot of pagan ritutals that go along with the Christmas of today, like the evergreen tree was thought to be some type of god because it stays green all year round. The ornaments come from Europe as well as the idea of sharing gifts from St. Nick. As Christians we should look at this time to share our homes and ourselves with others. Good fellowship will win people over with love. There is no definately date on the birth but the place is written. Most scholars just go by it was cold time of year. I think Hallmark greeting cards is responsible for alot of the holidays we share today. Look for a chance to share today, don't wait till Christmas!

-tri
Amen.
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Old 01-03-2007, 17:32   #16
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Originally Posted by JimS View Post
Good you and I both know how to use Wikipedia (great isn't it). Also, I never said they could not celebrate - I am simply curious as to why. You profess Christianity and thus, I presume, celebrate for the reason I do - Christ's birthday.

I am aware that some of the items used to celebrate Christmas were stolen/borrowed from other cultures (PAgan included). I am also aware that the birth date of Christ is not entirely agreed upon. I am also aware that the Catholic Church set the date (since it was not really known for sure) to compete with Pagan religions. Paul used this tactic to get his message across to the Athenians (who must have been the first politically correct group - they had an unknown god; to cover all bases).

Acts 17:16-32
16*Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. 17* Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18* Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19*And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? 20*For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21*(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22* Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23*For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24*God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25*neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26*and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27*that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28*for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29*Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30*And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31*because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32*And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33*So Paul departed from among them. 34*Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
The fact is the word itself clarifies the subject being celebrated. Therefore, the rest of the argument made is an excuse given by apologists or those that favor the PC movement.
Christmas |?krism?s| noun ( pl. -mases ) the annual Christian festival celebrating Christ's birth, held on December 25. • the period immediately before and after December 25 : we had guests over Christmas. exclamation informal expressing surprise, dismay, or despair. DERIVATIVES Christmassy |-m?s?| adjective ORIGIN Old English Cr?stes mæsse (see Christ , Mass ).

Christ |kr?st| noun the title, also treated as a name, given to Jesus of Nazareth (see Jesus ). exclamation an oath used to express irritation, dismay, or surprise. PHRASES before Christ full form of BC . DERIVATIVES Christhood |-?ho?d| noun Christlike |-?l?k| adjective Christly adjective ORIGIN Old English Cr?st, from Latin Christus, from Greek Khristos, noun use of an adjective meaning ‘anointed,’ from khriein ‘anoint,’ translating Hebrew m?š?a? ‘Messiah.’
In closing, if the answer is as simple as Wikipedia indicates then there should be absolutely no problem with Merry Christmas - but that certainly does not appear to have been the case for the PC movement. So obviously there is a movement wanting to remove Christ from Christmas.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to respond.
Honestly Jim, I am sorry that you viewed my post as an attack. I really am sorry and I was actually just trying to use witty sarcasm through my words and I guess it's just hard to pick up on sarcasm through text. I am again sorry about you taking offense to my words.

While I do like Wikipedia for a lot of things, I did not need it for my post. I study a large amount of theology and retain that knowledge and wisdom and have done so through out my life to refrain from ignorance. I did answer what I feel it means to most non-Christians in the second part of my post with my honest opinion.

Sorry that my words were taken harshly and God bless.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:09   #17
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I celebrate the Nativity of our Lord. I celebrate his birth, his incarnation. I really don't have time to worry that most are celebrating a holiday under his name without paying attention. Thats the least of my worries. Even thousands of evangelicals didn't honor his birth in 2005 when the date fell on a Sunday because it was too inconvenent. Hey, I even use XMAS sometimes because the X is greek for Jesus ( XC = Jesus Christ). As far as the Roman Catholic church picking the date, it was actually the early Christian Fathers that picked the date, the schism hadn't occured yet. And the vestments, kneelings, prostrations, prayers, incense, bells, and other rubrics came from the Jewish faith, since the majority of Christians were practicing Jews until they were forced out of the synagogues. They simply took the worship style that was given by God and continued ( until modern times when anything goes is the motto for worship). We shouldn't be so concerned on how the world celebrates, just concerned on how we who are Christians celebrate. If I lived in a Muslim country, I would not feel bad taking their religious holiday off.
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Old 01-04-2007, 05:11   #18
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Unless you work for yourself, if the company shuts down for the day, it's not really possible to go to work. Even if you do work for yourself, unless you have a backlog of work to do, you most likely aren't going to get any new business on Christmas. So, it may not be that they are taking off because of the holiday, but rather that the holiday is forcing them to take a day off.

I work for an international software corporation and there are many different cultures of people just in our office in Houston. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, athiests, etc... The building was closed on Christmas. How were the non-Christians supposed to work that day?

Steve
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:17   #19
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They all got a day off with pay, that is great! I work for a religious organization that I don't agree with yet they give a day off paid for a religious day that is not even reconized by other faiths but I along with my fellow workers take it off with gladness. I know of no other company that takes that day off. It doesn't mean that I celebrate the holiday like those that believe, I just enjoy the time off.
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Old 01-05-2007, 15:20   #20
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No disrespect to you JimS, or to anyone else here, but this is how it is. I am NOT going to tell you my bilefs. I DO NOT want to know yours. I will not notice that you went to church on christmas because I will be too busy opening preasents, shooting the s$%^ with family, etc. You will not notice that I did not go to church because you will be too busy bileving, having faith, and doing your part where your beliefs are concerned. Then later on, I will see you as I walk down the street, and I will say to you "Merry Christmas!" I am quite sure you will reply with the same "Merry Christmas!" You and I will both think for a second "he is rather cheerful and polite", smile, and be on our way. Everyone goes home happy.

What is wrong with this story...........ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

Let your faith pertain to YOU.
Let my faith pertain to ME.
Dont worry about mine, and I will not worry about yours, and nothing will happen.

No shouting, no war, no CRUSADES, etc, etc. It is the happy ending we were all looking for.
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Old 01-05-2007, 15:49   #21
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Originally Posted by Der Verge View Post
No disrespect to you JimS, or to anyone else here, but this is how it is. I am NOT going to tell you my bilefs. I DO NOT want to know yours. I will not notice that you went to church on christmas because I will be too busy opening preasents, shooting the s$%^ with family, etc. You will not notice that I did not go to church because you will be too busy bileving, having faith, and doing your part where your beliefs are concerned. Then later on, I will see you as I walk down the street, and I will say to you "Merry Christmas!" I am quite sure you will reply with the same "Merry Christmas!" You and I will both think for a second "he is rather cheerful and polite", smile, and be on our way. Everyone goes home happy.

What is wrong with this story...........ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

Let your faith pertain to YOU.
Let my faith pertain to ME.
Dont worry about mine, and I will not worry about yours, and nothing will happen.

No shouting, no war, no CRUSADES, etc, etc. It is the happy ending we were all looking for.
Well said.

Which is why I don't often post here in the Religion forum, but this thread started out in Chit-Chat, so that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!
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