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Old 05-31-2013, 10:51   #76
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Glaciers melting

May 29, 2013
...

With global warming, the glaciers are melting. Once stretching to the edge of town, they now end high in the mountains. Moreover, their greenish glacial water is forming lakes. In summer, when the melting accelerates, floodwaters threaten the area. But the avalanche witnessed by Mr. Bomio shows that the shrinking of the glaciers removes a kind of buttress supporting parts of the mountains, menacing the region with rock slides.

Grindelwald stands as a stark example of what is happening these days to Switzerland’s glaciers, and there are more than a hundred, large and small. As the Lower Grindelwald Glacier shrank, its ice no longer buttressed the east wall of the Eiger, a 13,025-foot mountain that is part of the ring south of Grindelwald. Moreover, the warming reduces the effect of permafrost that once acted as a sort of glue binding together the mass of the mountains. On that day in 2006, a chunk of the Eiger amounting to about 900,000 cubic yards fell from the east face, causing the cloud of rock dust that startled Mr. Bomio and his friends.
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/wo...mountains.html

But how can this be? AlwaysWrong assures us that in spite of the evidence, the earth is actually cooling.

Oh yeah, AlwaysWrong is dishonest and always wrong.



And now, back to your regularly scheduled denial of reality.
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Old 05-31-2013, 13:22   #77
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Not enough C02 now at current levels to create measurable heat retention in our atmosphere, especially from man, who at the most, has less than 3% to do with the total amount of C02 in our atmosphere.

Just not enough.
Never was in human history.
Never will be.

Smoke that in your MMGW pipe.
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Old 05-31-2013, 13:26   #78
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Here is a thought based in reality:

Guess what happens to glaciers during each interglacial?

Here is a hint... It's natural.
It's normal.
It's happened time and time again before, at least 5 times in the past 500,000 years...
The totally natural, normal effect of an interglacial like the Holocene that we are in now is that GLACIERS MELT.

Oh my..
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Old 05-31-2013, 13:54   #79
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2.5 billion years ago the earth was tilted 54 degrees instead of 23 degrees, the sun was 300 degrees cooler and 6% smaller. There was ice at the equator, maybe we should go back in time to satisfy the little slipper wearing cry baby darlings who are making all the money from their false claims. After all it must be Homo Sapien Sapien that caused the sun to get bigger and hotter and it must have been our coal fired electric plants that made the earths tilt change. It was my garden tractor that caused the last ice age to give up its clutch on the earth, submerge the dry path between us and Asia and cause the Swiss glaciers to melt.

Nobody doubts that it is getting warmer or colder, warm water melts ice, cold water makes ice, guess what folks, I ain't taking the blame so leave my spray paint and my mini-van alone.

There has been an ice age both minor and major every 150,000,000 years lasting from 10,000 years to a million years for the last 2.6 billion years but only 5 notable episodes since we started walking on our hind legs and making campfires.

We didn't make an ice age and we didn't stop an ice age and only a complete vacuum head will believe we are the cause of climate change now. It's not that we are at fault, the neutered wonders must have something to weep and cry about. Maybe we need another asteroid to scare them, they really seem to need to be scared.
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Old 05-31-2013, 19:11   #80
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Maybe all of the lib-prog a$$hats here should watch this video to gain some perspective on the CO2 levels of Mother Earth?

Carlin nails it!

Enjoy....

"The people are fu(ked!"

George Carlin on The Environment
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Old 05-31-2013, 19:16   #81
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Sez Paco: "Who needs science, anyway? Science is stoopid."
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Old 05-31-2013, 19:18   #82
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
Sez Paco: "Who needs science, anyway? Science is stoopid."
You mean Al Gore's Science?

Yeah, he's a real genius!

Remember to genuflect on your way out of the temple, moron.
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Old 05-31-2013, 20:39   #83
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Originally Posted by Paco View Post
You mean Al Gore's Science?

Yeah, he's a real genius!

Remember to genuflect on your way out of the temple, moron.
You are truly a spectacle in conservative stupidity, "Paco." Two strawmen in one post, and not one iota of reason.

Nothing says CONSERVATIVE FAILURE like conservatives' global warming lies and excuses.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:52   #84
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
You are truly a spectacle in conservative stupidity, "Paco." Two strawmen in one post, and not one iota of reason.

Nothing says CONSERVATIVE FAILURE like conservatives' global warming lies and excuses.
Go build another bicycle path, tree-hugger.

And, while you're at...take your CO2 rant over to Communist China.

Source: Wikipedia - List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions
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Old 06-01-2013, 12:15   #85
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
You are truly a spectacle in conservative stupidity, "Paco." Two strawmen in one post, and not one iota of reason.

Nothing says CONSERVATIVE FAILURE like conservatives' global warming lies and excuses.
I'm not a conservative but I think your insidious campaign to inject mind numbing wrong facts into a discussion is beyond the pale of a liberal with any shred of honesty in him. Tell me O' mindless one how we created the first ice age before we were even on two legs, when most life on earth was slime mold and one celled water creatures. Tell us O' sage of the mountain how we caused all those glaciers to melt and then reform over and over again. Oh please tell us how this all happened even though the CO2 level of 1,000,000 PPM 4.6 billion years ago didn't drop to its present day level till 3 million years ago yet we keep having cold and warm cycles. Face it you poseur, you lost the debate on this a long time ago and you are now reduced to calling anybody who disagrees with you stupid names as befits a small child having a tantrum.
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Old 06-01-2013, 14:16   #86
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Also lets not forget that we really don't know how weakening and changing magnet poles affect climate patterns.
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Old 06-01-2013, 15:28   #87
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I'm sure if the poles flip, and it changes the earth, Al Gore, and folks like ForSoWrong who follow his religion will all agree it's man made greed driving the change....
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Old 06-01-2013, 16:21   #88
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Originally Posted by Adjuster View Post
I'm sure if the poles flip, and it changes the earth, Al Gore, and folks like ForSoWrong who follow his religion will all agree it's man made greed driving the change....
Ya fat Al who never took a science class in his life....dude's an idiot! No one seems to question that the carbon credits exchange and all monetary benefits associated with basically are owned by fat Al and co.
It's legalized extortion.


And the fact that anyone who has taken a statistics class realizes that you can make a number say whatever you want seems to be ignored by the left...
The Amazon forest btw creates the most " greenhouse gases" on the planet....and yes i realize its part of the natural cycle....
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Old 06-01-2013, 17:10   #89
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I love all of the speculation of what happened 2.5 million years ago

First of all in my opinion for anyone to state as fact what happened beyond modern man's recorded weather history is bologna. Now about 20 miles from my house as the crow flies, is Mt St Helens. We just climbed her again today and looked down at the glacier that's growing in the crater over lunch, Have a look.... Global warming is directly tied to the "carbon credit" money grabbing scheme being foisted by bought and paid for by so-called scientists via the grant trough. Pure garage

USGS: Volcano Hazards Program - Mount St. Helens Geology and History
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Old 06-01-2013, 19:41   #90
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Originally Posted by chill1955 View Post
First of all in my opinion for anyone to state as fact what happened beyond modern man's recorded weather history is bologna.
You don't believe the earth is flat do you? Ignorance of scientific achievements in the fields of geology and related sciences is how the arm wigglers and panic salesmen manage to convince the Luddites in congress to give them money for their bogus science. Let me introduce you to Doctor Aradhna Tripati from UCLA one of the worlds leading researchers on the subject we have been talking about. Last Time Carbon Dioxide Levels Were This High: 15 Million Years Ago, Scientists Report
Another important factor is the sun. During the Ordovician, it would have been several percent dimmer according to established nuclear models of main sequence stars. Surprisingly, this raises the CO2 threshold for glaciation to a staggering 3000 ppmv or so. This also explains (along with the logarithmic forcing effect of CO2) why a runaway greenhouse didn't occur: with a dimmer sun, high CO2 is necessary to stop the Earth freezing over. Does high levels of CO2 in the past contradict the warming effect of CO2?
Doctor Mark Pagani Professor, Director of Graduate Studies, Director of Yale Climate & Energy Institute.
Dr. Mark Pagani, a paleoclimatologist at Yale University, described how this works: When algae in the Pliocene sucked up carbon dioxide to perform photosynthesis, they produced organic carbon with distinct isotope signatures that were sensitive to the concentration of CO2 in seawater. These signatures are preserved in fossils that can help determine how much carbon dioxide was in the atmosphere back then.

Using these techniques, scientists have estimated carbon dioxide levels at some locations going back as much as 150 million years.

Climate change scientists look back -- 3 million years -- to look to future - U.S. News
From archaeology to geology to astrophysics a lot of smart people have been working long and hard to look into our past and trying to figure out what our future brings.

If scientists couldn't figure out a way to deduce things they can't see then we wouldn't have things like CMOS logic and your computer would be the size of a semi truck. (complementary metal oxide semiconductor)
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Old 06-01-2013, 19:57   #91
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Your so called science is nothing more than conjecture

And those who you would stand on their shoulders and attempt to sound intelligent would tell you the same. This is why the word t-h-e-o-r-y was invented you foolish man. Put your faith in conjecture, I could care less. The time that we have been able to somewhat actually measure a pittance of the universe is but a shutter on a camera at greater than 1 millionth of a second. Do you have any common sense?
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Old 06-01-2013, 21:43   #92
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Originally Posted by chill1955 View Post
And those who you would stand on their shoulders and attempt to sound intelligent would tell you the same. This is why the word t-h-e-o-r-y was invented you foolish man. Put your faith in conjecture, I could care less. The time that we have been able to somewhat actually measure a pittance of the universe is but a shutter on a camera at greater than 1 millionth of a second. Do you have any common sense?
Ah a feeble minded Luddite in our midst. You sound even more obtuse than Free and that must make you very proud. They do not allow you to play with sharp objects or make you tie your own shoes do they?
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Old 06-01-2013, 23:52   #93
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Glad to see you realize you can't back it up pontificator!

Only a fool would take conjecture as hard science which of course requires actual proof. So you believe in a theory, good for you. A luddite would resort to name calling because that's all you have left grumpy old foolish man. There is a higher p-r-o-b-a-b-i-l-i-t-y that we are headed for another ice age if you compile the hard evidence and actual data.
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Old 06-02-2013, 02:25   #94
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Current disagreement aside, there is not enough C02 today, and has not been in man's time on earth, to DRIVE any measurable warming of our planet's atmosphere.

Not at 400ppm, not at 800ppm.

There is just not enough C02 period to drive any measurable warming.

The most credible, and dare I say it, verifiable theories are that the Sun in large parts decides our climate, and there is not much that anything on Earth can do about that reality.

The next most credible reality is our planet wobbles as it's spinning in orbit around our Sun, and that wobble completely changes any thoughts of an "eternal" climate or ecosystem anywhere on the planet.

Next reality is our planet has moving plates of landmass, and as they slowly have moved around, the ecosystems have come and gone, so again, change is a constant.

Further, in the end, the sun will indeed grow so large, and hot, that the orbit of the Earth, or what's left of it at that point, will be close to, or in the "atmosphere" of the sun. A very hot place to be, and no amount of carbon dioxide is going to matter one iota at that point in time.

In the end, the Earth is a very scorched, dry and barren rock planet, going around a small white dwarf if our sun does not supernova. (Might not have enough mass to do that, we don't know for sure, but the absolute is that NOBODY human will be around to see what happens billions of years from now, unless we have figured out how to move somewhere else before our own planet is superheated by the Sun's unstoppable growth.)

All men could die, and no more carbon be released by "fossil fuels" and the end result would be the same.

The sun wins in the end folks.

Stuff that reality in your theory pipe and smoke it.
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:17   #95
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Adjuster,everything you say is true but the illiterate among us have not seen or believe in proof that there are such things as tectonic plates or orbit inclination. If they have not personally seen it simplified so they can understand it they will fall back on the old grade school argument which consists of an impassioned "Is not".

The mental ability and effort to read beyond a tabloid newspaper article is well bey9ond their capabilities and will continue to exist with the warm fuzzy blanket of ignorance covering their bony heads till they die. The tragedy is these people breed and spread their defective genome and deconstructive philosophy on to future generations. Fortunately they will never amount to anything unless they get elected to public office and will have minimal impact on mans productivity.
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Old 06-02-2013, 12:43   #96
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And i get to add another member to my ignore list.
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Old 06-02-2013, 15:47   #97
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Originally Posted by old grump View Post
I'm not a conservative but I think your insidious campaign to inject mind numbing wrong facts into a discussion is beyond the pale of a liberal with any shred of honesty in him. Tell me O' mindless one how we created the first ice age before we were even on two legs, when most life on earth was slime mold and one celled water creatures. Tell us O' sage of the mountain how we caused all those glaciers to melt and then reform over and over again. Oh please tell us how this all happened even though the CO2 level of 1,000,000 PPM 4.6 billion years ago didn't drop to its present day level till 3 million years ago yet we keep having cold and warm cycles.
Wipe your butt and open your eyes, oh illogical one. Just because human industrial activity did not cause every instance of past climate change, it does not necessarily follow from that that it cannot cause it. Just as no life form (we know of) caused nuclear explosions to occur prior to 1945, it would have been illogical for someone informed of the science prior to 1945 to insist the prospect of nuclear weaponry presented no risk to mankind. In that, humanity prevented catastrophe because no one possessing nuclear weapons used them. Would you be such a fool as to claim we did not have the capacity to change the climate with nuclear weapons?

We have some like AlwaysWrong here who claim atmospheric CO2 is irrelevant to climate. Such persons don't understand the scientific method, have no regard for facts, and don't care to. They're impossible to reason with.

But others are simply misinformed. Perhaps you are among their number.

The most important facts to understand are that CO2 levels are already higher than ever before while humans have been on the planet, and continue to rise at a significant rate. The sharpness of this increase is explained by chemistry and physics: It is caused by human industrial activity. There is no longer any debate among climatologists, nor scientists in related fields, about that particular scientific fact.

In anticipating the effects of global warming on human beings in the decades and centuries in our proximate future, CO2 levels many millions of years ago are relevant but not all that informative. Nearly everything about the environment was different then, and plants and animals were also, accordingly, different. So if you (and the already confirmed ostriches) insist on claiming higher levels of CO2 now are nothing to do anything about, if doing anything about it means burning less carbon, then you are either duped, or duping. That's just the truth.

----------

The Pliocene is the geologic era between five million and three million years ago. Scientists have come to regard it as the most recent period in history when the atmosphere’s heat-trapping ability was as it is now and thus as our guide for things to come.

Recent estimates suggest CO2 levels reached as much as 415 parts per million (ppm) during the Pliocene. With that came global average temperatures that eventually reached 3 or 4 degrees C (5.4-7.2 degrees F) higher than today’s and as much as 10 degrees C (18 degrees F) warmer at the poles. Sea level ranged between five and 40 meters (16 to 131 feet) higher than today.

As for what life was like then, scientists rely on fossil records to recreate where plants and animals lived and in what quantity. Pliocene fossil records show that the climate was generally warmer and wetter than today. Maps of Pliocene vegetation record forests growing on Ellesmere Island in the Canadian Arctic, and savannas and woodlands spreading over what is now North African desert. Both the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets were smaller than today during the warmest parts of the Pliocene.

In the oceans, fossils mark the spread of tropical and subtropical marine life northward along the U.S. Eastern Seaboard. Both observations and models of the Pliocene Pacific Ocean show the existence of frequent, intense El Niño cycles—a climatic oscillation that today delivers heavy rainfall to the western U.S. causing both intense flooding but also increasing the river flows needed to sustain salmon runs. The absence of significant ocean upwelling in the warmest part of the Pliocene would have suppressed fisheries along the west coasts of the Americas, and deprived seabirds and marine mammals of food supplies. Reef corals suffered a major extinction during the peak of Pliocene warmth but reefs themselves did not disappear.

Richard Norris, a geologist at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, UC San Diego, said the concentration of CO2 is one means of comparison, but what is not comparable, and more significant, is the speed at which 400 ppm is being surpassed today.

“I think it is likely that all these ecosystem changes could recur, even though the time scales for the Pliocene warmth are different than the present,” Norris said. “The main lagging indicator is likely to be sea level just because it takes a long time to heat the ocean and a long time to melt ice. But our dumping of heat and CO2 into the ocean is like making investments in a pollution ‘bank,’ since we can put heat and CO2 in the ocean, but we will only extract the results (more sea-level rise from thermal expansion and more acidification) over the next several thousand years. And we cannot easily withdraw either the heat or the CO2 from the ocean if we actually get our act together and try to limit our industrial pollution–the ocean keeps what we put in it.”
...
The Keeling Curve | What Does 400 ppm Look Like?

Notice what that last part means. What we have done over the past century or two will effect future generations for thousands of years to come. We can either act to limit the harm, or continue to make it worse.
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Old 06-02-2013, 16:20   #98
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Originally Posted by old grump View Post
Adjuster,everything you say is true


Originally Posted by old grump View Post
but the illiterate among us have not seen or believe in proof that there are such things as tectonic plates or orbit inclination.
You have yet to cite scientific evidence to support your assertions about either.

Originally Posted by old grump View Post
The mental ability and effort to read beyond a tabloid newspaper article is well bey9ond their capabilities
That's your funniest claim yet, old grump, because the record shows that it is the believers in fiction here who resort to tabloid 'articles,' while I and the other reality-based posters here tend to cite scientific journals and references to such.
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Old 06-02-2013, 17:34   #99
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Wow. You know, when I pay a tradesman to fix something for me (plumber, roofer, electrician) I usually trust that they have the expertise to properly complete the job.

When I go to the Dr. I usually don't try to second-guess his prognosis either. Call me trusting, but the guy went to 10 years of school and this is his specialty.

What makes you all think it's ok to second-guess climate-change scientists? This is what they do. Analyze the climate. They went to school to do it. They follow the scientific method.

Anyway, here's a great example of a simple experiment done by a PHOTOGRAPHER. Maybe you can trust YOUR EYES:

It's' called Chasing Ice

Here's a clip of the Largest Glacier Calving Ever Captured on Film 600 foot tall chunks of ice bobbing in the water.
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Old 06-02-2013, 18:56   #100
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Originally Posted by SureNSteady View Post
Wow. You know, when I pay a tradesman to fix something for me (plumber, roofer, electrician) I usually trust that they have the expertise to properly complete the job.

When I go to the Dr. I usually don't try to second-guess his prognosis either. Call me trusting, but the guy went to 10 years of school and this is his specialty.

What makes you all think it's ok to second-guess climate-change scientists? This is what they do. Analyze the climate. They went to school to do it. They follow the scientific method.

Anyway, here's a great example of a simple experiment done by a PHOTOGRAPHER. Maybe you can trust YOUR EYES:

It's' called Chasing Ice

Here's a clip of the Largest Glacier Calving Ever Captured on Film 600 foot tall chunks of ice bobbing in the water.
We aren't saying it isn't getting warmer but why is it getting warmer. The elite 77 that comprise the 98% of scientists who agree that climate change is caused by CO2 is disputed by scientists who weren't included in the poll because they had come to the 'wrong' conclusions. When we started having ice ages and warm ups the CO2 was the primary component of the earths atmosphere. Now Free is saying "Well it might be mans fault." Nobody has been paying attention to one simple little fact, we have had cooling and warming cycles when the CO2 was the same level for 3 million years. We had warming and cooling when it was a 1000 times higher. What is different today, well the sun is 6% larger and 300 degrees hotter. The arm wavers say I haven't provided any proof yet I posted many links. They won't look at them because they aren't links from the holy 77 who are trying to make man go back to bison hide blankets and walking.

Here is hypocrisy, first they say wind is good, then the greenies condemn windmills because they don't like the sound or the dead birds. They like solar so SEG comes up with a plan to put a huge solar array in the Mojave desert. Look up the Mother Jones articles against that one. Apparently they feel the solar panels will shade to much of the desert causing irreparable harm to the indigenous wild life.

Battery powered cars will be the wave of the future they say. Sure if you have the discretionary funds to purchase an expensive car that is slower and has less range then internal combustion engine cars. Oh yeah, you won't need as stations they say, well okay, plug in at the local parking lot while you do your shopping, light shopping because you can't haul as much payload. Where are the outlets getting their electricity from. Well there are clean nuclear plants that they are trying to shut down or coal fired plants that they are trying to close down or gas fueled power plants that rapidly use up huge quantities of a finite resource and guess what it release CO2 into the air too.

There is nothing we can do to make the greenies happy unless you count the fact they love to bitch and beller. They never have solutions that amount to anything as witness the HCFC flap but they have a lot of complaints without a single positive constructive suggestion.
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