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Old 04-12-2012, 23:36   #26
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No there weren't any slurs.

Originally Posted by higgite View Post
They explained on tv that in Florida only capital offenses must go through a grand jury. That could explain why Zimmerman wasn't charged with a capital offense, to avoid the possibility that a grand jury might no-bill him. Prosecutors know how to game the system as well as defense lawyers.
They have 10-20-life there. They don't need a grand jury. Nothing about this incident involved 1st degree anyway.

Originally Posted by woodstock View Post
Did any of you watch the news conference where Prosecutor Angela Corey announced the charges against Zimmerman? From the very start it appeared as if she were running for office of some sort.
Appeared? That was a campaign speech if I ever saw one.

Last edited by survivalguy72; 04-13-2012 at 14:12.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:16   #27
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Originally Posted by survivalguy72 View Post
That was a campaign speech if I ever saw one.
MSNBC’s Hardball Video
mediaite

Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit “Irresponsible and Unethical”
Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz
“I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:40   #28
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On the raw 911 tape, one could imagine that Zimmerman said "fking coon". Especially if you're told before listening to it that's what he said. Then you are listening for that phrase. On CNN's enhanced version, one could imagine that he said the same, again, if told so beforehand. On CNN's revamped enhanced version, one could imagine he said "fking cold". I haven't heard the version that claims he said "fking punks", but apparently that's floating around out there, too. If they can enhance a tape for "clarity", they can also alter it. With the media's reputation for manipulative sensationalism, especially CNN, who can believe them? The whole racial slur thing is a non-event blown out of proportion for tv ratings.
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:47   #29
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Originally Posted by survivalguy72 View Post
They don't need a grand jury. Nothing about this incident involved 1st degree anyway.
Now that the case has indeed taken a turn for a trial the real law experts are weighing in. Nothing about this case involved second degree murder either, and that charge is a technicality. It doesn't look good for the prosecution and the case may be thrown out before it even has a chance.

Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit "Irresponsible And Unethical" | RealClearPolitics

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.... It is irresponsible and unethical....a prosecutor could persuade a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich, [in this case] all the prosecutor had to do was sign her name to it.”
Typically the prosecution will charge the accused with a slightly higher charge in an attempt to have him found guilty on a lesser charge, or to invoke a plea bargain on a lesser charge (which isn't going to happen here). He now can't be found guilty of a higher charge (1st degree murder), but he can be found guilty of manslaughter. If they had tried him for manslaughter, that was the highest count he could have been found guilty for.

This entire process is just for show and it only delays the inevitable public outrage and possible race riots that will ensue when the case is thrown out, or when he is found not guilty under the current law. As many of you have been saying Corey made a campaign speech for reelection and is using this (like everyone else) to further her own agenda. Too bad it is going to end in failure and she will be responsible for it. There was a reason that the first prosecutor didn't try the case, there is nothing there to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it went the way the Martin family said it did.

What you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection, and she gave her presentation. And she overcharged...way overcharged. If the evidence is no stronger than it appears in the probable cause affidavit this case will result in an acquittal.
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Old 04-13-2012, 14:18   #30
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Originally Posted by BangBangPlay View Post
Nothing about this case involved second degree murder either, and that charge is a technicality.
The only difference between 1st and second is premeditated intent so yes it does. And it is totally normal to charge someone that way. It leaves the jury with more options.
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Old 04-13-2012, 16:02   #31
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I dont see Zimmerman getting convicted of 2nd degree murder. There is no way, unless he is railroaded by the judge. If your Zimmerman do you plea down to a involuntary manslaughter charge or go with hope of complete aquittal on 2nd degree murder charge? An honest judge wouldnt even let it go that far.
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Old 04-13-2012, 16:13   #32
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It may not go to trial. In Florida, it will go to preliminary hearing and the judge could toss it out for lack of evidence and a jury never even hears the case.
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Old 04-13-2012, 17:05   #33
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Regardless, I'd like to offer an open invitation for George Zimmerman to move to Idaho when it's all done.

Up here, we don't have any problems with shooting bad guys in self defense.

Trayvon became a bad guy when he punched Zimmerman in the nose, and then beat his head into the ground.

Absolutely danger/threat enough to act in self defense.

In my personal view, that reality should be on the news for an entire cycle, to at least try and get the truth out there to the people.

Problem is, the way it's been built up now, race riots are going to happen if this guy is not convicted (unjustly) of some serious crime/murder.
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Old 04-13-2012, 18:30   #34
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I heard he has a website.
The Real George Zimmerman
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Old 04-13-2012, 19:14   #35
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Originally Posted by Adjuster View Post
Regardless, I'd like to offer an open invitation for George Zimmerman to move to Idaho when it's all done.

Up here, we don't have any problems with shooting bad guys in self defense.

Trayvon became a bad guy when he punched Zimmerman in the nose, and then beat his head into the ground.

Absolutely danger/threat enough to act in self defense.

In my personal view, that reality should be on the news for an entire cycle, to at least try and get the truth out there to the people.

Problem is, the way it's been built up now, race riots are going to happen if this guy is not convicted (unjustly) of some serious crime/murder.

Unfortunatly I think your right about the riots. They have already charged him unjustly and I wouldnt put it past anyone to try and get a conviction to avoid all the drama that will come with the case getting tossed, even though its the right thing to do.

Ive thought about what I would have done if I was the one getting my head pounded into the sidewalk and although I consider myself a pretty good fighter, in that situation you could be looking at severe head injuries or worse and I would have done the same thing Goerge done. No doubt about it. Makes you wonder how you would be treated if you ever had to use deadly force. I will pray for Zimm but Im glad Im not in his shoes tonite.
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Old 04-13-2012, 22:22   #36
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Originally Posted by survivalguy72 View Post
The only difference between 1st and second is premeditated intent so yes it does. And it is totally normal to charge someone that way. It leaves the jury with more options.
Maybe, but the evidence isn't there to back the charge up. If he stepped out of his car and shot Martin in the chest it would be second degree murder. Don't forget that Zimmerman doesn't have to prove anything, the burden falls on the prosecutor to prove that he wasn't protecting himself. Also Zimmerman is claiming protection under the stand your ground law, and if he proves that he did act within the law he can't even be charged let alone sentenced.

The only charge they could get to stick would be manslaughter, and like I said the prosecutor needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman maliciously liked Martin, and didn't in fact act in self defense. It isn't happening and but I doubt the judge will throw it out so this trial will end up being a waste of time.....
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Old 04-13-2012, 22:59   #37
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While the nation has been fixated on the Martin/Zimmerman saga we should remind ourselves that senseless violence is the true enemy facing our nation.

Ask family and friends of Brian Stow.
This is what happens when an unstoppable force intends to do great bodily harm.

Bryan Stow Virtually 'Hands' Ball for 1st Pitch | NBC Bay Area
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:23   #38
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The process here isn't new to Florida. I can't remember the case(s), but the Florida Supreme Court has held that a CCW and/or Castle Doctrine are merely affirmative defenses to a charge.

In other words, if someone breaks into your house and you shoot them, the Castle Doctrine doesn't protect you from prosecution (in Florida), it provides you with a defense to raise at trial. The State then has to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Castle Doctrine did not apply to the particular facts of your case.

I haven't read the cases from FL on No Duty to Retreat ("Stand Your Ground"), but I'd imagine it's a similar situation, if the Castle Doctrine doesn't protect citizens from prosecution.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:57   #39
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While the nation has been fixated on the Martin/Zimmerman saga we should remind ourselves that senseless violence is the true enemy facing our nation.
I agree completely. At the same time, it's a shame that Bryan Stow didn't have the means to defend himself from this attack even though the constitution says that he has the right.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:40   #40
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Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
While the nation has been fixated on the Martin/Zimmerman saga we should remind ourselves that senseless violence is the true enemy facing our nation.
I too agree and that is why I have a hard time believing that Zimmerman is the answer to all of the violence and crime that occurs daily in the nation. His final actions can be perceived as violent but his intent and motive weren't regardless of what people are speculating. People forget that he was trying to prevent crime and not promote it. Instead the public and the media are treating him as if he targeted Martin maliciously and intended to commit a crime or harm him from the get go.

That is why this case has received such a divided support, as some have a hard time separating this type of self defense shooting from a violent crime. If you look at it objectively the story put forth by the prosecution just doesn't make sense. I have a real hard time believing that Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked, and I also have a hard time believing that he initiated the struggle knowing that the police were on their way, and also that he had a loaded weapon on his hip. It just doesn't make sense, especially to people who have carried a loaded weapon openly or concealed. There is no way that this confrontation can be labeled as a violent crime, at least not on Zimmerman's part.

Since this story broke there have been some senseless and eye opening shootings around the country. Those types of crimes and perpetrators are the ones our justice system should be focused on eliminating. George Zimmerman isn't a danger to society, and he is not a criminal despite the image portrayed in the media. This whole case is a waste of time, money, and effort....
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:06   #41
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This whole trial episode is now just a ploy to squelch the racial tensions of the US,after all of the media sensasionalizing of this incident!It will be cheaper to the nation(read public/taxes)to pay for a mock trial-that might lessen the damages done by a bunch of rioters/protesters.No doubt there will still be some that want to beat on their war drums and light the town on fire.Remember how much money the (supposed)peaceful "occupiers" cost local governments?And they did'nt try to torch the whole community!From all that I have read-this is just going to be smoke and mirrors/dog and pony show for the benefit of the media,and the stupid.............
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:13   #42
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BangBang, I don't mean to speak for BrianS but, I am pretty sure the senseless violence he was speaking of was Martin attacking Zimmerman for no reason other than a neighborhood watch patrol doing his job by patrolling the neighborhood.
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Old 04-14-2012, 19:50   #43
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Originally Posted by woodstock View Post
BangBang, I don't mean to speak for BrianS but, I am pretty sure the senseless violence he was speaking of was Martin attacking Zimmerman for no reason other than a neighborhood watch patrol doing his job by patrolling the neighborhood.
Maybe but my argument still stands, there are horrible things that transpire daily that don't receive the attention and scrutiny that this case has received. At least the OJ Simpson case was a brutal double homicide, but this is a case of a law abiding citizen who was attacked trying to protect his neighborhood and now he is a racial icon of hate. He didn't shoot the kid 5 times in the face, he shot him close range in the chest with one round. Someone who wants to kill someone goes about it differently than Zimmerman did. It doesn't make any sense, and he has gotten a raw deal since the story went viral. This country truly is messed up. I am looking forward to the public reaction when he walks....
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Old 04-14-2012, 20:43   #44
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Originally Posted by BangBangPlay View Post
Maybe, but the evidence isn't there to back the charge up. If he stepped out of his car and shot Martin in the chest it would be second degree murder. Don't forget that Zimmerman doesn't have to prove anything, the burden falls on the prosecutor to prove that he wasn't protecting himself. Also Zimmerman is claiming protection under the stand your ground law, and if he proves that he did act within the law he can't even be charged let alone sentenced.

The only charge they could get to stick would be manslaughter, and like I said the prosecutor needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman maliciously liked Martin, and didn't in fact act in self defense. It isn't happening and but I doubt the judge will throw it out so this trial will end up being a waste of time.....

I watch that show "First 48" where they follow detectives from depts all over the US as they investigate murder cases, and it's amazing how many people get charged with 1st degree murder! Even if the person is an accomplice who simply was there during an unintended murder committed by someone else, they get charged with 1st degree murder a lot! Even when nobody involved had premeditated the murder. Even if its a drug deal gone bad where someone gets shot, it's 1st degree murder almost 75% of the time.

They do it for options for the jury, but also so they can get a plea bargain and an easy conviction without going to court usually. If you are charged with 1st degree capitol murder, then you are likely to plea it down to 2nd or manslaughter and admit to it instead of facing the death penalty. But if you were only charged with 2nd degree or manslaughter, you'd be more likely to try and fight it I guess.
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Old 04-14-2012, 20:56   #45
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Maybe but my argument still stands, there are horrible things that transpire daily that don't receive the attention and scrutiny that this case has received.
I agree completely. No argument here.
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Old 04-14-2012, 21:22   #46
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Originally Posted by NorthernSoutherner View Post
I watch that show "First 48" where they follow detectives from depts all over the US as they investigate murder cases, and it's amazing how many people get charged with 1st degree murder! Even if the person is an accomplice who simply was there during an unintended murder committed by someone else, they get charged with 1st degree murder a lot! Even when nobody involved had premeditated the murder. Even if its a drug deal gone bad where someone gets shot, it's 1st degree murder almost 75% of the time.

They do it for options for the jury, but also so they can get a plea bargain and an easy conviction without going to court usually. If you are charged with 1st degree capitol murder, then you are likely to plea it down to 2nd or manslaughter and admit to it instead of facing the death penalty. But if you were only charged with 2nd degree or manslaughter, you'd be more likely to try and fight it I guess.
You are right, and in a previous post I mentioned that the prosecutor's hands were tied with the 2nd degree charge. She couldn't charge him with manslaughter (because that is the lowest charge) this only gives the jury more options. I understand why she did it and it makes sense, I was only pointing out that they have a near impossible task of proving that charge. All they have is insubstantial evidence (like his mom IDing her son's voice on the 911 tape) and witnesses that didn't see anything, they only heard the struggle. What can they actually add to the case that won't be objected by Zimmerman's attorney? This case and that charge are all for show, and intend to keep the public happy for the time being.

I am glad that you brought that show up because it does a great job of chronicling homicide and how murderers are charged. The majority of the time the police have a pretty good idea who the murderer is, but they typically don't have the evidence to hold them or charge them. I'd say that 90% of the time the police rely on confessions by the killer because they don't have the physical evidence or eye witnesses to produce an indictment. Most of the time they confess out of ignorance, thinking that the police have a strong case against them. In real life the police don't use CSI techniques to produce evidence, it is too costly and it often takes too long. The title of the show indicates that the vast majority of homicides are solved within 2 days, and those that aren't are usually doomed to go unsolved. That show does a good job of showing how what you say can be used against you in a court of law. It is wise to seek an attorney and plead the fifth, talking can only hurt you in those situations.

Speaking of which I am willing to bet that Zimmerman doesn't take the stand in this trial. He can only jeopardize the case and really doesn't offer anything to his defense. The prosecution will have a tough time presenting their case and the evidence to back it up. I am sure Zimmerman will never tell his side of the story publicly, there won't be a need to....
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Old 04-14-2012, 21:26   #47
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I was speaking about all senseless violense but was also thinking about the probable assault on Zimmerman.

I think George was forced into a no win situation where he was going to be a victim or be a VICTIM.

I find no logic to call and wait for police, then initiate a confrontation only minutes later with someone he was convinced to be on drugs and who literally towered over him.

To answer Trayvon's father, we know George looked into his eyes because in the 911 call mentions "now he's just staring at me". At the time, I really doubt Trayvon looked like the happy camper pic we've been shown a million times.

Brian Stow's tragedy shows that senseless violence doesn't discriminate by race. White on white crime and black on black crime far exceed incidents of white on black crime by a huge margin.

If the liberal minded Obamas and Holders of this world refuse to acknowledge this fact we can never become a post racial society.
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Old 04-14-2012, 21:42   #48
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I was wondering the same thing. Why would Zimmerman track down Trayvon and confront him when he knew the police were already on their way AND the police knew that he knew they were on the way. Makes no sense.
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Old 04-14-2012, 21:52   #49
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When this story first broke the first argument the media put forth to cement Zimmerman's guilt was that he had over a hundred lbs on Martin. Well now after getting a real look at Zimmerman, and not his "mug shot" photo (for a crime he wasn't charged for) that was plastered all over the internet and TV, we know better. Zimmerman is a relatively small man and he obviously isn't built like he was in the photo from several years ago.

The amount of propaganda and speculation surrounding this story has always made me skeptical, annoyed, and pretty angry. If this was indeed a ruthless racially motivated killing then why did the supporters of Martin need to use dirty tricks to bring people to their side?
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Old 04-15-2012, 00:12   #50
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Have you met them? All they've ever known are dirty little tricks. They don't want level playing fields. Can you imagine the outrage if conservatives plastered this type of image across the nation?
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