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Old 04-03-2012, 21:17   #1
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Angry How greedy and traitorous have big US corporations become?

This is a bit unrelated to the subject, but I was just reminded about the TARP program that gave 900 billion dollars or so to bail out banks in America after THEY made bad business decisions. But......I lost my house in 2009, and one of these same banks that asked for and received tax dollars from me to bail them out, refused to help me in any way to keep my home. I tried the "Obama" mortgage restructuring program(which was actually instituted before Obama ever got into office), but they didnt work with me at all! Excuses were all I got, plus one bank employee told me I should've "planned" better before the recession. But these banks made worse financial decisions than I did, and yet they didnt lose their shirts! But I did....... In fact, I had to give them my tax dollars to solve their problems!

Anyway....... I didnt used to fall for the left wing line that all capitalism is evil, and we should turn over big business to government control. I still dont believe in that(except for maybe power companies), but I do think US corporations are greedier than ever.

They dont have any issues selling out our country, firing US employees, moving to China, then selling us the products they make for the same price they used to charge, or even more, even though they can produce these products for pennies on the dollar of what it used to cost them to produce them when they were made in America!

I went into a Red Wing shoe store the other day, and noticed that their prices for all boots have gone up considerably. Then I noticed that most of these boots are now made in China! So I asked if they still make any boots in America, and the lady pointed me to the American made boots, and they run from $239-$359 per pair for Red Wing boots! Were talking about standard work boots for the most part. Now 5-7 years ago, when they were ALL still made in the US, these boots cost about half that much!

The lady said, many Red Wing customers show their loyalty by continuing to buy our boots. To that I said, it's a shame that Red Wing doesnt show any loyalty to those same customers, in fact they are knowingly ripping them off and taking advantage of them.........

But what's worse, is that these American corps are mandated to turn over all technology to the Chinese government and military in order to do business there, and these CEO's trip over each other to give up important technology to the Chinese in order to make that extra money by relocating there.

Some of that technology is military related, or intelligence related, which can be turned against us. But all these companies care about these days is the almighty dollar(or the almighty Yuan in this case). They say their only responsibility is to their shareholders. Maybe their shareholders are just as greedy and selfish these days! But it'll come back to bite them all one day relatively soon I bet.......

How do you feel about this subject, and name the companies that seem to be the most greedy or traitorous?

Right off hand I'd now say: 1. GE 2. Red Wing and 3. Surefire(they are made in US, but they use that excuse to overcharge while selling an outdated, inferior product)
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:08   #2
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American companies are the best example we have of un-bridled greed.

When a company puts making massive profits ahead of everything else, something is wrong.
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Old 04-04-2012, 16:30   #3
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I think it has much less to do with greed, and more to do with companies trying to just survive global competition.

The reality is, 150 years ago, Red Wing could make boots here, and sell them here. Global markets were limited by the ability to ship products, and still compete.

But today, you can ship a container from China to a Pacific port in North America for less tahn 1000.00 per container.

If that container has 500k in products, shipping becomes a very small amount of the "cost" that is reality in all companies.

Say it's full of Flat Screen TV's.

Could we build those some TV's in SanJose, CA?

Sure, but the taxes, regulations and labor rates are all higher than in Singapore, where they are made by a Japanese company that located the factory there, because Japan's own taxes and labor rates had risen to where they had to move out of the country.

The USA has the worlds highest corportate taxes folks, and we wonder why our jobs continue to evaporate, only to be filled by lower paying, service industry jobs?

IT IS NO MYSTERY.

And it's not greed, it's economics.

Want more USA jobs?

Lower the corporate tax rate to 10 or 15% and watch the USA grown at 5 to 10% per year again. (Or more.)

Think about it, would you rather live and workin the USA or China? No brainer folks, the USA wins out. Companies need employees, and happy, content employees work better, make better stuff, and that's profitable for the companies.

Why does KIA/Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes Benz and others build vehicles in the USA? (And why did they locate those factories in the "south" right to work states?)

Easy.

Profits.

Obama has done EVERYTHING he can to attack companies, and it's shown in our labor costs, and number of companies that have moved from the USA to greener pastures elsewhere.

Let's stop pointing fingers, and while I agree the banks should have been left TO FAIL, as that would have cleaned out the over-expensive leadership at the top, and resulted in many options for home owners to resolve their individual situations with what's left over.

Your house example would have been a good one. Had TARP not been done, and your big bank failed, those who bought up the "toxic" assets would have wanted to work with you to make payments, ones that were based on the new reality of the value of the house.

And since the banks would no longer be around, the new buyers of those assets would have the ability to re-draw up contracts/lending agreements to solve much of the problems.

THe flip side is letting everyone default and nobody wins that way.

I'm over 54k upside down on my house, and the bank is not willing to work with me on this reality.

Why should I pay my payments, even if I could? That would be bad business practices, and any investors would be right to fire me as CEO if I made choices that lost money like that.

Yet, Americans all over this nation make the choice to throw their good hard earned money at bad investments every month as they pay their mortage.

WHY?

Sit down, write it out, and if you are losing money on your house, stop paying your mortage folks.

Banks will take them back, but YOU earn the difference in a very real way. Business does this all the time. They re-organize, and start over again, and become more profitable as a result.

When that bank employee says you failed to plan? Point out with a smile on your face that no, YOU failed to plan buddy, and you just forclosed on a house worth xx,xxx.xx less than I owed you. Pretty dumb choice there "smart guy."

Meanwhile, in short order, yet another "smart guy" bank will want to lend me money again, since it's what they do, and I can buy a cheap, forclosed on house in a few years, as the market corrects, and get in at the bottem, while all those fools who pay their mortages on upside down homes now, get hosed each and every month.

Guess what folks?

TARP only works if those "fools" keep paying on their upside down loans.

BINGO!

Want to get your bank's attention? It would only take say 50% of those upside down in their loans, who can still make the payments, to say "NOPE, I'm not going to throw my good money after bad, and you can have my house at the price you want me to pay you."

Bye bye big banks.
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Old 04-04-2012, 16:34   #4
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PS: It would not take the government to do this either.

The banks, in an effort to remain profitable, and not crash, would HAVE to re-draw up your mortage.

Lower amount, lower rates etc.

Not doing that would destroy them. (Again, not a bad thing folks.)

Trust me, the people with money in this nation, will not refuse to lend it out and make money on their money.

They will just stop using big banks as the middlemen.
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Old 04-04-2012, 21:50   #5
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Originally Posted by Adjuster View Post
I think it has much less to do with greed, and more to do with companies trying to just survive global competition.

The reality is, 150 years ago, Red Wing could make boots here, and sell them here. Global markets were limited by the ability to ship products, and still compete.

But today, you can ship a container from China to a Pacific port in North America for less tahn 1000.00 per container.

If that container has 500k in products, shipping becomes a very small amount of the "cost" that is reality in all companies.

Say it's full of Flat Screen TV's.

Could we build those some TV's in SanJose, CA?

Sure, but the taxes, regulations and labor rates are all higher than in Singapore, where they are made by a Japanese company that located the factory there, because Japan's own taxes and labor rates had risen to where they had to move out of the country.

The USA has the worlds highest corportate taxes folks, and we wonder why our jobs continue to evaporate, only to be filled by lower paying, service industry jobs?

IT IS NO MYSTERY.

And it's not greed, it's economics.

Want more USA jobs?

Lower the corporate tax rate to 10 or 15% and watch the USA grown at 5 to 10% per year again. (Or more.)

Think about it, would you rather live and workin the USA or China? No brainer folks, the USA wins out. Companies need employees, and happy, content employees work better, make better stuff, and that's profitable for the companies.

Why does KIA/Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes Benz and others build vehicles in the USA? (And why did they locate those factories in the "south" right to work states?)

Easy.

Profits.

Obama has done EVERYTHING he can to attack companies, and it's shown in our labor costs, and number of companies that have moved from the USA to greener pastures elsewhere.

Let's stop pointing fingers, and while I agree the banks should have been left TO FAIL, as that would have cleaned out the over-expensive leadership at the top, and resulted in many options for home owners to resolve their individual situations with what's left over.

Your house example would have been a good one. Had TARP not been done, and your big bank failed, those who bought up the "toxic" assets would have wanted to work with you to make payments, ones that were based on the new reality of the value of the house.

And since the banks would no longer be around, the new buyers of those assets would have the ability to re-draw up contracts/lending agreements to solve much of the problems.

THe flip side is letting everyone default and nobody wins that way.

I'm over 54k upside down on my house, and the bank is not willing to work with me on this reality.

Why should I pay my payments, even if I could? That would be bad business practices, and any investors would be right to fire me as CEO if I made choices that lost money like that.

Yet, Americans all over this nation make the choice to throw their good hard earned money at bad investments every month as they pay their mortage.

WHY?

Sit down, write it out, and if you are losing money on your house, stop paying your mortage folks.

Banks will take them back, but YOU earn the difference in a very real way. Business does this all the time. They re-organize, and start over again, and become more profitable as a result.

When that bank employee says you failed to plan? Point out with a smile on your face that no, YOU failed to plan buddy, and you just forclosed on a house worth xx,xxx.xx less than I owed you. Pretty dumb choice there "smart guy."

Meanwhile, in short order, yet another "smart guy" bank will want to lend me money again, since it's what they do, and I can buy a cheap, forclosed on house in a few years, as the market corrects, and get in at the bottem, while all those fools who pay their mortages on upside down homes now, get hosed each and every month.

Guess what folks?

TARP only works if those "fools" keep paying on their upside down loans.

BINGO!

Want to get your bank's attention? It would only take say 50% of those upside down in their loans, who can still make the payments, to say "NOPE, I'm not going to throw my good money after bad, and you can have my house at the price you want me to pay you."

Bye bye big banks.
I agree with much of what you said here, but I can tell you first hand that greed definitely plays a big role in the overly inflated prices many companies are charging for their products, even though they produce them in China for a whole lot less than it cost them to produce those same products in America 3-5-7-9 years ago, and they can ship it back here cheap to market, BUT.....they still charge as much or more than they did before. Thats greed plain and simple. Sure, they can technically call it 'profit', but if I overcharge my customers dramatically, they wont refer to it as profit, they will refer to it as greed on my part, because thats what it is.

Look at most US companies in WW1 and WW2, Korea, etc. They had much more patriotism than they have today by a long shot! They are now screwing this country over every chance the get, for added 'profit', and then stabbing us in the back by agreeing to turn over technology to our potential biggest future enemy(China), even though much of that technology that they developed was paid for by the taxpayers of this country.

I would love to see some future US president reestablish some of the tarrifs, lower the corporate tax rate, but end the loopholes that allow GE to pay zero taxes, then shut the door on those companies that moved to China, so that new US companies can be created who will take their places and produce the goods we need. That would put these traitors out of business in the USA, and allow new, purely US companies with US employees to be created. Screw them!

As far as the TARP program and allowing the banks to fail, I agree. Many of the employees wouldve been out of work for awhile, but other banks wouldve stepped in and taken over for the failed ones, and those employees would once again have jobs!
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:57   #6
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No one held a gun to your head to buy one of the over priced houses, if you had any sense at all you could have seen this coming long before it did, I suspect that you were one that was hoping that the market would continue to grow, so that you could sell in a couple of years for a huge profit and like many you lost.
I realize that some people lost their jobs, and for the most part you can blame that on run away govt. spending.
I am afraid that in the near future the world is going to push the reset button and there is going to be heck to pay.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:01   #7
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Originally Posted by Rifleman55 View Post
No one held a gun to your head to buy one of the over priced houses, if you had any sense at all you could have seen this coming long before it did, I suspect that you were one that was hoping that the market would continue to grow, so that you could sell in a couple of years for a huge profit and like many you lost.
I realize that some people lost their jobs, and for the most part you can blame that on run away govt. spending.
I am afraid that in the near future the world is going to push the reset button and there is going to be heck to pay.


Before you start insulting people and making false accusations or assumptions, you should 'ask' what the deal is....

NO.....I didnt buy the house when the market was high, and NO....I didnt buy the house simply as a way to hopefully make lots of money.

I bought the house in 2003, when the market was LOW, and lost it in 2009, because my customers either lost their jobs, took BIG financial hits, moved to retirement homes, and couldnt afford to spend money like they used to, so my income dropped 50%+.

That was my 1st house, I bought so I could live in it, not as some pie in the sky investment as you insinuated, and I spent over $10,000 and hundreds of hours fixing that house up, so it gained about 35-40% in value by 2008!

But then the market plummeted. My business plummeted. That happened by no fault of mine. I didnt want to lose my ONLY house dammit! I didnt want my credit to be ruined! I was supposed to go in with my brother on a house in FL in 2006, but I turned it down, because I knew the house values wouldnt keep going up 10%+ per year forever, so actually, I avoided risking bad money on real estate!

Hey Rifleman55: Open mouth, insert foot!

And dont try feeding us this BS that you somehow knew in 2003-2007 that the market was going to implode like it did! MOST Americans didnt know that, and MOST financial experts didnt know it(but you did). Even many politicians were telling people to keep investing in real estate in 2008 for Gods sake.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:36   #8
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Government spending is scaring business out of america because they know the government wants them to pay for it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 23:01   #9
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
Government spending is scaring business out of america because they know the government wants them to pay for it.
^^That, and the fact that many politicians(mainly dems) are regularly hating on American business, and playing the populist liberal line of punishing them with higher taxes and punitive, redundant laws and regulations.

I hated on a few businesses in the OP here, but I must clearly state that most US businesses do a good job, and we need to keep them here.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:23   #10
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Originally Posted by Rifleman55 View Post
No one held a gun to your head to buy one of the over priced houses, if you had any sense at all you could have seen this coming long before it did, I suspect that you were one that was hoping that the market would continue to grow, so that you could sell in a couple of years for a huge profit and like many you lost.
I realize that some people lost their jobs, and for the most part you can blame that on run away govt. spending.
I am afraid that in the near future the world is going to push the reset button and there is going to be heck to pay.
Wow. What a real piece of work you are.
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Old 04-06-2012, 05:52   #11
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[QUOTE=NorthernSoutherner;702498]

Anyway....... I didnt used to fall for the left wing line that all capitalism is evil, and we should turn over big business to government control. I still dont believe in that(except for maybe power companies), but I do think US corporations are greedier than ever"

You are railing against government aided banks and you want MORE government control? These banks, car companies and insurance corps bailouts should not have been done. They should have gone through bankruptcy and been sold off to people who could run them properly.
You should be upset that the government took your taxes to save the investments of politically connected fat cats.
The government meddling in the economy is what is causing the delay of a recovery. You lost your house because they are extending the recession. You could have survived a short recession not a four year one.

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Old 04-06-2012, 14:57   #12
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Some of you think that I am crazy, I can't predict the future, but even I knew that the housing market could not sustain the fast growth that was happening at that time, and that it was only a matter of time until the bubble burst.
I know that many good hard working folks lost their jobs and could not make their mortgage payments, but there were many that were reckless and owed more than they should have, many had maxed out their credit cards so that they could keep up with the joneses. Many had bought too much house and borrowed 100% of the purchase price and many at interest only loans, when the interest rate went through the roof they were sunk.
I feel sorry for those like the OP that were hurt buy the government policies that caused the businesses to move to places like China, taking the jobs with them.
I worked in a nearly recession proof business, I am a retired heavy equipment mechanic, and was still working until2010.
The welfare state mentality is going to bring this country to its knees and destroy it if we don't get a handle on it.
Like I said in my first post sombody is going to push the reset button.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:31   #13
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Talking Here's what I think !

I think that if you aren't learning , than you will repeat your mistakes , again !

I sure that things are looking up as I go to Wally-World and buy alot of that Chinese or jungle monkey made stuff and save the difference , the American way !

Losing a home is a big plus today as now you can start over , lucky you !
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Old 04-07-2012, 15:22   #14
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This past decade has been a serious education for me:

I used to think that my credit was important. My mortage was just part of life, and while I have never bought a new car until my wife demanded one, I've bought good used deals on nice stuff that loses it's value quick, but still has 100k or more of useful life.

I paid my bills early, had excellent credit, and saved money in my 401k like a good boy should.

I weathered the small up and downs of the market, made some, lost some, but invested for the long term, as I was told that was smart.

Nearly two years ago, my employer of 14 years let me go along with 15 others in my department. This was after they laid off over 300 the year before, so many of us knew it was possible. I've been offered jobs that pay less than 1/2 of what I used to make, and none that are close to what I will go back to that daily grind for again.

I watched my 401k be decimated as "long term" investments tanked, never to return value even with the "recovery" many talk of.

For over a year, I paid my bills, watched my cash slowly evaporate, but I kept my credit clean, pay the mortage, car payments, health care payments, and the biggest mistake, the credit card payments. LOL

I know better. I was just too "conditioned" by society and my upbringing to make the same hard choices that companies make every day.

Who gets paid, and who does not. And it's not about loyalty, or what's right, it is my friends, ABOUT SURVIVAL.

If I could do it all again, sure I would change some choices, but the reality is you can't do that, you can only do things diferently GOING FORWARD.

And the reality is in my life, I will never treat banks, credit cards or other "bills" as anything more than things WAY down on the ladder to my own best intrest. (As that is exactly how the banks, credit cards and other lenders will treat you, so It's only fair folks.)

Treat your banks like they treat you. If you are upside down in your home mortage, is it really in your best intrest to keep paying your good money on bad investment?

Many of us are 50k, 100k or more "underwater" on loans with monthly payments that are considerably higher than rent on a similar home.

Why do we keep on paying? Same goes for vehicles. I absolutely reccomend if you have any equity in your vehicles, to sell them, get out from your payments, and buy a older, reliable vehicle that while it might not be as nice, or cool, will save you serious money every month not making that payment.

I stopped paying my CC bills. I've stopped paying my house payment. The banks and creditors suddenly want to work with me! It's a laugh, as I have on purpose, bought assets that have less value than what they can go after.

After nearly two years, I've worked to start my own company, it's been difficult, and I don't know that it will ultimately be what I do, but I've seen more of my kids in the past few years than I did for their entire lives before. (The last 8 of the 14, I was on the road 43 weeks per year, average, so only home on the weekends, and not always even then.)

What does the future hold?

I know that I'll never buy another bank mortage house/land. I will buy only what I can afford to pay cash for, or agree to pay for with an individual.

My first home, I bought the land for 3200.00 cash from an individual in a small down in Central Washington. I pit set a double wide on a foundation that I excavated and finished, and that house while only 1000 sqft, was easy to heat/cool and the monthly payment on the mobile was 230.00. Today? I'd not even go there, but build a cash only house, and finish it as I go. I have no problem working my way into a home, v/s buying one done, and hoping that I can afford to pay for it all again.

And if the bank ever kicks me out? I'll just rent in the meantime.

Now, if the bank came to me and said, "We would like to use this government program to refinace your loan, here is your new payment and intrest rate, we will lose some money, but not as much as if you are evicted, the house sits empty for another year, and then is sold on the flooded market with the other repo's for pennies on the dollar..." I'd be totally willing to work with them.

But what do you think the chances of that happening are? LOL

Personally, I think the USD will cease to be the worlds reserve currency inside this year, and the value of anyone's savings will drop by 2/3 or more. Sure, you will still have the money, and it might even go up in total, but the BUYING POWER of that money will be pitiful compared to what it was.

You saved it when a dollar would buy you half a gallon of gas or more. Today, that same dollar buys you less than a pint of gas....

You used to be able to buy a loaf of bread for 99 cents, the good stuff was 1.25, but today? It's 2.50 for the cheap stuff, and 5 or 6 for the good stuff...

Used to be able to buy 500 rounds of .22LR for 8.50 a brick. Today? It's 18.00 or more.

Has your savings gone up to follow the cost of living?

Mine sure the heck has not.
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