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Old 06-22-2011, 12:01   #1
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Cause and Effect

One of these is not like the others.











... "We have exported our industry overseas and there are no pollution controls in these places or they are terribly inadequate. ...
...

It is not just the workers in each of these areas who face the biggest threat, but rather the women of child-bearing age and their children, Fuller says. "Children are not just mini-adults. They are, in fact, growing and are much more susceptible to environmental pollutants than adults."

He notes that the lead released during the course of lead–acid battery recycling ups the levels in children's blood to 50 to 100 micrograms per deciliter, or as much as 10 times higher than levels deemed safe by the World Health Organization. Each 10 microgram per deciliter rise in lead levels lowers intelligence levels by four to seven points on IQ tests, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

Many of these problems, including untreated sewage and urban air pollution, have either been solved or diminished in the developed world, and there's no reason they couldn't also be solved in the developing world, Fuller says. "It's a doable, solvable problem."
...
The World's Top 10 Worst Pollution Problems: Scientific American
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:08   #2
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It's up to those countries to be responsible for the pollution they produce and what they do with it. If any can be blamed for business leaving America it would the """government""" which has driven them out with high taxes and over regulation.

Nobody wants to get stuck with paying for this mess.

Already, the CBO says, the debt has spiraled out of control in just three years.

"At the end of 2008, that debt equaled 40 percent of the nation's annual economic output (a little above the 40-year average of 37 percent). Since then, the figure has shot upward: By the end of this year, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projects, federal debt will reach roughly 70 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) -- the highest percentage since shortly after World War II," reads the report.

Read more: New Report Offers Grim or Grimmer Picture of Nation's Long-Term Debt - FoxNews.com
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Old 06-22-2011, 13:16   #3
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
So...what do you propose we do about it?
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Old 06-22-2011, 13:40   #4
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American Companies Exploit the Congo | Project Censored
RebackLaw PL – Tampa Criminal Defense Lawyer » Blog Archive » Access To Justice In U.S. At Third-World Levels, Says Survey
Know Anybody Making $250,000? | YouGov US Opinion Center

The plutocracy does not care about Americans any more than they care about people in the rest of the world, and we've seen clearly what that has meant for them. The process of chewing up and reducing the American middle class has only just begun.

If you really want to keep the 2nd amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights and Constitution as more than a quaint relic, stand up for democracy now, while you still can. As we've also seen in the plutocracy's vast overseas dystopias, they intend only their goon squads be armed.

Last edited by freesw; 06-22-2011 at 14:03.
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Old 06-22-2011, 13:57   #5
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
American Companies Exploit the Congo | Project Censored
The Threat of Private Military Companies
RebackLaw PL – Tampa Criminal Defense Lawyer » Blog Archive » Access To Justice In U.S. At Third-World Levels, Says Survey
Know Anybody Making $250,000? | YouGov US Opinion Center
Bank Mergers Help Plutocrats, Hurt You. Internationalists Call For Elimination Of The F.D.I.C. | Liberty Lobby

The plutocracy does not care about Americans any more than they care about people in the rest of the world, and we've seen clearly what that has meant for them. The process of chewing up and reducing the American middle class has only just begun.

If you really want to keep the 2nd amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights and Constitution as more than a quaint relic, stand up for democracy now, while you still can. As we've also seen in the plutocracy's vast overseas dystopias, they intend only their goon squads be armed.
You'll have to do better than that. What, specifically, do you propose we do?

You see....I think Harry is right. Over taxation and over regulation forced business's out of the country, and now we have no control over how the do things. So are you saying that we should lower corporate taxes, and soften regulations, to get corporations back in the country, where we have some standards of operation???
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Old 06-22-2011, 14:16   #6
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I don't know what Dirty Harry posted.

As for taxes and regulations "forcing" American companies out of the country, and claiming we can do nothing about how they operate then, both claims are absurd.

First of all, many bad companies try to sell the American people on those lies, which you evidently swallowed whole. If we in this country attempt to compete with other nations by lowering our standards in this country to their level, we will have few rights, no justice to speak of, no democracy at all, no environmental standards, a terrible health care system, near universal poverty, rule by thug and a tiny controlling oligarchy at the top. In other words, allow them to do to this country what they already did to many others. That's what the bad companies want, and you bought it.

Second, companies don't only operate overseas for the dollar a 16 hour day labor, no health and safety regulations, cheap bribes and even lower taxes. They're also after raw materials. Would you like them extracting coal, for example, here in an even less safe manner than Massey?

Third, there is plenty we can do to improve the situation. We can require imports to be certified as being produced under minimal fair labor and environmental standards. If a previously certified importer falls short, they pay a fine. Fail often and the certificate is revoked. We can cooperate with other nations in isolating and sanctioning illegal tax havens. As it stands now, due to the corrosive effect of corporate lobbying, we do just the opposite, making international trade a paradise for criminals, while ruining the lives of workers and citizens in many of the affected countries.
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Old 06-22-2011, 14:33   #7
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Energy costs in America are also a driving factor beside the fact we now have the highest corporate tax rate, yet the "government" has managed to spend us into the largest debt any nation has ever seen.

There is less value in investing here with such massive welfare/entitlement programs, and a growing non-producing society, 45 million people on food stamps welfare programs is a costly liability.
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Old 06-22-2011, 15:13   #8
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Africa's poverty and its wars over natural resources are related, says RODERIC ALLEY. A major plan for poverty alleviation is needed to end gross inequalities of wealth and poverty that fuel military recruitment, corruption and conflict.

Michael Klare in his book Resource Wars has identified internal warfare over natural resources, including minerals, as "one of the most prominent and disturbing features of the current political epoch." That concern is magnified given the close relationship that exists between Africa's contemporary resource wars and its poverty.

Eight of the ten countries at the bottom of the United Nations Human Development Index for 2002 are African and have experienced either internal wars or serious domestic conflicts. Those eight countries include Angola, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, Chad, Central African Republic, Guinea Bissau, Rwanda and Burundi. Other sub-Saharan African states fare little better, and include the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), Sudan and Algeria. In the Congo, there has been egregious exploitation of mineral wealth through conflict and the personal enrichment of corrupt ruling elites. Consequently resource conflicts in Africa must be viewed against a background of serious poverty and development failure throughout the continent.

Considering the problem in more detail:

About 55 percent of the world's annual supply of rough diamonds come from sub-Saharan Africa.
As well, this region is well-endowed with cobalt, copper, gold, coltan and even uranium. Much of this is destined for foreign processing and sale.
In key conflicts in the region, particularly the DRC and in Angola, there is a continuing perception that peace efforts are compromised by the financial incentives offered by trade in these resources.
Resource extraction, and sometimes the prospect of finding resources, offers strong commercial motivation for the involvement of foreign governments as well as mercenary groups.
Conflict areas within Africa provide examples. The support of foreign entities, on whatever side of these events, is tied to mining and other resource exploitation concessions.
Conflict environments thus provide opportunities for the advancement of commercial ventures involving foreign governments usually in association with local warlords, local ruling elites and international entrepreneurs.
Often the perpetuation of war is considered profitable business through which local and international actors invest and expect to gain profits, all parties benefiting from a local war economy.

Beneficiaries of war

Among these beneficiaries are: political leaders; multinational corporations; intermediary networks; local military commanders; warlords; organised crime syndicates. Financial self-interest also motivates soldiers, commanders, and their political backers through activities that sustain conflicts as profitable enterprises and where they gain a stake in the resource wealth involved. This can result in both violent conflict, but also collusion between combatant interests.

War economies that involve valuable but illicitly traded goods such as gems, hardwoods, and drugs, circumvent regulation and taxation, contributing to the growth of the black, parallel or informal economy. The deregulation and internationalisation of trade through globalisation has greatly facilitated commercial links. Criminalisation occurs when the marketing of illicit commodities requires armed movements to develop downstream partnerships through illegal networks to then facilitate trade or retail sales.

However instability caused by conflict is not always conducive to profits, although conflict helps eliminate competition.

In Southern Africa several states produce diamonds. The diamonds recovered illicitly from conflict areas in Angola and the DRC are infused with an export stream of clean diamonds from those exporting legitimately.
To avoid creating an audit trail, smuggling and bribery sees collusion of public figures at the highest levels through the attractive financial rewards available. The causal link between corruption and civil strife is not always direct, but the corrosive effect on local economies is ultimately destabilising.
In some instances, an imposition of sanctions is destabilising when making normal economic activities illicit, and pushing the state to engage with criminal gangs to run smuggling operations.
A wide variety of commercial penetrations occurs including use of migrant labour, individual smugglers, small companies in neighbouring countries, and either junior or larger transnational corporations.
The involvement of mercenaries or private military companies has become widespread in mineral rich countries in Africa. Their role is less that of fighting wars, than the protection of strategic economic interests for recognised governments. This leaves the population of resource-poor areas without public services, and at the mercy of predatory rebel groups.

In most cases, foreign powers and associated commercial interests hide geopolitical and economic agendas by claiming that their activities are guided by the need to restore "order and stability." However "order and stability" often result in conditions of mutual benefit for local elites and foreign interests. Elf Aquitaine has been heavily involved in the Republic of the Congo (Congo Brazzaville), while Thai business and British security firm interests co-operated in a coup in Sierra Leone in 1997. In the DRC, the French supported Mobutu forces allied with Rwanda Hutu militias to oppose Lawrence Kabila before he was assassinated.
...

To sum up, resource conflicts in Africa have resulted in the domination of the economy by the military and resource sectors. The military destabilise development, and the resource sector corrupts politics and undermines African economies. As the non-military and non-resource sectors decline, then the decay of wealth and power is increasingly dependent on controlling rents from the resource sector with wealth transfers to and from the military apparatus. This motivates those already in control of resource rents to protect their privileged access to such earnings at all costs, including fighting against those contesting control. This deeply dysfunctional conduct will not cease without a comprehensive programme of poverty alleviation in Africa, and an end to the gross inequalities of wealth fueling military recruitment into the continent's resource wars.
Blood for Diamonds: The African Situation

1995 was Shell's annus horribilis. Even as British environmentalists condemned its plan to dispose of the giant Brent Spar oil platform in the North Sea, a greater threat to the global brand emerged in the deep poverty of the Niger Delta where author and Ogoni activist Ken Saro-Wiwa, along with other tribal leaders, had challenged the company to clean up pollution from its wells and share more of its revenue with the poorest.

By June 1995, the company had been expelled from the delta following a peaceful uprising and was fending off allegations that it had colluded with the military in a series of massacres and human rights abuses. But a bad situation for Shell turned terrible when in November 1995 Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni were sentenced to death on trumped-up murder charges by a military tribunal.

Two weeks later they were hanged at dawn and it emerged that Shell had not tried to plead for mercy for its critics, saying it was a matter for the state.

Outrage spread across the world. There were vigils and demonstrations, Nigeria was suspended from the Commonwealth and an international boycott of its products hurt the country financially. A reputation for honesty and integrity was shredded. Activists in Europe firebombed Shell stations, there were questions raised in parliaments around the world and the company's reputation was in meltdown.

In response, Shell turned to the crisis limitation exercises, promising inquiries, offering money to rebuild Ogoni schools and hospitals and to clean up pollution. Within two years it had rebranded itself with "new values of honesty, integrity, respect for people, as well as professionalism, pride and openness, sustainable development and human rights."

It never admitted guilt for what happened in the delta but publicly maintained that technically, legally and ethically it had acted correctly.

The papers that have shed light on Shell's attempts to deal with the PR nightmare emerged from last year's New York trial of the company by Saro-Wiwa's son and others. The case never came to court because in June, the company agreed to an out-of-court settlement of $15.5m. Once again, the company denied any liability for the deaths, stating that the payment was part of a "reconciliation" process.
How Niger Delta crisis threatened Shell's global brand
In 1995, pollution and politics in Nigeria hit the oil giant's reputation hard


Shell's grip on Nigerian state revealed

Child Slavery, Coltan and The Congo « Stop Child Slavery

Chocolate and Slavery
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Old 06-22-2011, 15:53   #9
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
I don't know what Dirty Harry posted.

As for taxes and regulations "forcing" American companies out of the country, and claiming we can do nothing about how they operate then, both claims are absurd.

First of all, many bad companies try to sell the American people on those lies, which you evidently swallowed whole. If we in this country attempt to compete with other nations by lowering our standards in this country to their level, we will have few rights, no justice to speak of, no democracy at all, no environmental standards, a terrible health care system, near universal poverty, rule by thug and a tiny controlling oligarchy at the top. In other words, allow them to do to this country what they already did to many others. That's what the bad companies want, and you bought it.

Second, companies don't only operate overseas for the dollar a 16 hour day labor, no health and safety regulations, cheap bribes and even lower taxes. They're also after raw materials. Would you like them extracting coal, for example, here in an even less safe manner than Massey?

Third, there is plenty we can do to improve the situation. We can require imports to be certified as being produced under minimal fair labor and environmental standards. If a previously certified importer falls short, they pay a fine. Fail often and the certificate is revoked. We can cooperate with other nations in isolating and sanctioning illegal tax havens. As it stands now, due to the corrosive effect of corporate lobbying, we do just the opposite, making international trade a paradise for criminals, while ruining the lives of workers and citizens in many of the affected countries.
You have got to be kidding! Have you forgotten 2008. Obama won that election, because a whole lot of people voted for him, thinking that they were going to get "free" health care, their mortgages paid, and free gasoline. They voted to get a lot of things paid for by someone else, and you actually think that they will elect anyone who makes it so that they have to pay two or three times as much for goods, because someone says that someplace that they can't see, is being polluted? LOL...good luck with that one!

...and don't try to blame the right, for this. Who do you think buys all that cheap crap, from China, etc.? Here is a clue. It's all of us. Especially the lower and lower middle classes.
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Old 06-22-2011, 16:01   #10
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Who wants to get stuck with this bill?

The United States will find little relief from its bleak long-term fiscal outlook so long as growing federal healthcare and retirement programs gobble up more and more of the country's resources, said a new economic report issued Wednesday.
The findings by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office came as the Obama administration and Congress were struggling to find ways to make ends meet amid $1.5 trillion annual budget deficits and a national debt that, at $14.3 trillion, is seen as posing a danger to the nation.
Congressional Watchdog Warns: Government Benefits Swamping US Economy
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Old 06-22-2011, 16:21   #11
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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit View Post
You have got to be kidding! Have you forgotten 2008. Obama won that election, because a whole lot of people voted for him, thinking that they were going to get "free" health care, their mortgages paid, and free gasoline. They voted to get a lot of things paid for by someone else ...
That's bull****, and before you trot out the worn out footage of that one woman talking about "Obama's stash," know that if you do, I am going to pummel you for your disingenuity in suggesting that's the attitude of the typical Obama voter. I am going to do it by showing you examples of Republicans right in the thick of causing these problems.

Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit View Post
, and you actually think that they will elect anyone who makes it so that they have to pay two or three times as much for goods, because someone says that someplace that they can't see, is being polluted? LOL...good luck with that one!
This is why we need pundits and politicians with the guts to tell it like it is. Corporate media and political donors punish such honesty, which is why it's needed now more than ever. Explain to voters how the present system is unsustainable and is certain to further erode the middle class and our standard of living, and yes you're darned right people will pay more for goods. We're going to pay a lot more for goods soon no matter what, in real dollars. The Chinese loss leader sale is over. I have more trust in the good sense of the American people than you appear to. Please tell you you don't believe Americans' highest value is low low prices on consumer goods.

Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit View Post
...and don't try to blame the right, for this. Who do you think buys all that cheap crap, from China, etc.? Here is a clue. It's all of us. Especially the lower and lower middle classes.
The lower and middle classes have the least leeway in their budgets, so yes that's right. But they didn't make the policy choices that led to this degraded economy. I do blame the right for this, for their mindless knee-jerk insistence on deregulation of every kind at any price, for their corruption, for their constant refusal to agree to any and all measures to save the environment, for their constant anti-worker agitating and legislation, including in their treaty negotiations, yes, there is no reason not to blame Republicans and every reason to blame them first and foremost.
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Old 06-22-2011, 16:28   #12
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The Niger Delta, where more oil has leaked than in the entire BP spill



If you just get what you mistakenly believe is news from Fox and Limbaugh, you never hear about this.
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Old 06-22-2011, 17:12   #13
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Free, you'd sh!t bowling balls if you ever saw the thousands of miles of highways in 3rd world countries that are routinely "paved" with raw crude oil spread on top of dirt roads. Asphalt is a luxury in many places where gravel is for making concrete and concrete is for making buildings. Take your sensationalist photos of 100 square feet of oil spill and pedal them to your other liberal friends who have never been out of state, let alone out of country. That photographer probably drove on 1000 times that much oil to get to his photo op.
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Old 06-22-2011, 17:25   #14
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
...If you really want to keep the 2nd amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights and Constitution as more than a quaint relic, stand up for democracy now, while you still can...
Like standing up to the status quo and joining the Tea Party for instance?
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Old 06-22-2011, 17:29   #15
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That's not oil paving a road, higgite, and it's just tiny portion of the total that's polluted the Niger delta for the past five decades.
In Nigeria, Oil Spills Are a Longtime Scourge - NYTimes.com

This is what multinational oil companies do, in Africa, Asia, Latin America, and what they would do right here in the U.S. if there weren't laws and enforcement to prevent them doing it.
A Slideshow from Hell | Pipe(line)Dreams

Niger Delta on fire: Demands solution amid environmental racism
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Old 06-22-2011, 17:30   #16
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Originally Posted by Momo View Post
Like standing up to the status quo and joining the Tea Party for instance?
You're playing right into the plutocracy's hands.

http://www.prwatch.org/node/9012
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Old 06-22-2011, 20:46   #17
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
That's not oil paving a road, higgite, and it's just tiny portion of the total that's polluted the Niger delta for the past five decades.
In Nigeria, Oil Spills Are a Longtime Scourge - NYTimes.com

This is what multinational oil companies do, in Africa, Asia, Latin America, and what they would do right here in the U.S. if there weren't laws and enforcement to prevent them doing it.
A Slideshow from Hell | Pipe(line)Dreams

Niger Delta on fire: Demands solution amid environmental racism
Duh! Of course that's not a road, free. That's obvious. My point is that thousands times more oil is poured on the ground on purpose in the 3rd world than the little puddle shown in your photo. In other words, as usual, you have no real world frame of reference. Sorry I didn't spell that out more clearly for you.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:02   #18
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Only one photo features smoke stacks...no wait...only one features a street scene...maybe it's the one that features the union shop.
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:07   #19
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Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
Only one photo features smoke stacks...no wait...only one features a street scene...maybe it's the one that features the union shop.
Right. Like the Massey mine that happened to be a union shop?

No ... the vile head of the GOP lied again.

Limbaugh Lies About Big Branch Mine: No, Rush, It Wasn’t Union | AFL-CIO NOW BLOG
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Old 06-22-2011, 21:45   #20
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Originally Posted by higgite View Post
... as usual, you have no real world frame of reference. ...
You claim that based on a photo? What, do you want to compare places in dire straights we've visited, as if in any way that makes any difference at all to anything? I've been to some.
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Old 06-22-2011, 22:33   #21
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First of all, who gives a crap about the niger delta. Let the niger's deal with their own problems. Second of all, how can everything going wrong in the world be the conservative party of the government of the united states' fault?
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:09   #22
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Originally Posted by freesw View Post
You claim that based on a photo? What, do you want to compare places in dire straights we've visited, as if in any way that makes any difference at all to anything? I've been to some.
Well, if you want to avoid the point of your own thread, I'll play along. No, I didn't base my statement on a photo. Your posts are what I based my statement on that you show no real world frame of reference. Not only in this thread, but in most. You consistently sound like a college poli-sci student who has never set foot out of Travis County and knows nothing of the outside world except what you read on the internet. I'll give you credit for being a good wordsmith, but wordsmiths are a dime a dozen. Back on topic, you have drunk too much liberal koolaid about the U.S. needing to directly or indirectly regulate pollution in foreign countries to balance out our trade deficit and help fix our economy. Screw that, it's not our job to police the world's polluters. It's our job to make America strong and prosperous. We can do that by leveling the playing field in international trade, not by policing p!ss ant oil spills in the Niger delta. That's Nigeria's problem. They get paid handsomely in oil revenue to accept those spills. If they gave half a sh!t about it, they'd do something about it. They don't. That doesn't make the spills right, but it doesn't make them our problem, either. And oil spills in the Niger delta aren't going to ruin your drinking water. Grow up.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:37   #23
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"That's not oil paving a road, higgite, and it's just tiny portion of the total that's polluted the Niger delta for the past five decades."


Freesw, you're the one who has worked himself up into a lather. You get your bucket and mop and head on over to the Niger delta and clean it up all nice and sparkling.

Are you truly concerned about the Niger delta or are you hypocritically living out your life over here, beating folks over the head with environmental issues.

Higgite says you should "grow up" and he describes your problem exactly. The naiveté you show in your eloquent posts is shocking. There isn't enough money in the world to spend to keep the earth as pristine as environmentalists demand. Mankind lives on this earth and must produce to continue to exist and thrive. Get over it.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:20   #24
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higgite, qwman68 and bmcgilvray, your lack of humanity is noted. We in the United States do bear responsibility when we refuse to do anything about the bullies in our midst. You go so far as to support their corruption and pollution. You say you think what Shell Oil Co. does in Nigeria is just fine, business as usual. That makes you complicit. As I've already noted, I have yet to see a right winger who would hold any polluter to account.

If even the government of the United States is corrupted by corporations, how much easier it is for the fifth largest corporation in the world to corrupt - and control - the government of Nigeria.
WikiLeaks cables: Shell's grip on Nigerian state revealed | Business | The Guardian

Royal Dutch Shell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just as the people of the United States have no say about the pollution in our country, the people of the world have no say about the pollution in their countries. My point is that it is far worse for many of them, and plutocrats are at fault.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:37   #25
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One more thing.

If "growing up" means signing on to the prevailing "wisdom" among you right wingers that it's A-OK for a few people to further increase their already more than sufficient personal riches by destroying the lives of those who never did them a bit of harm, then I'll pass.

But that's not "growing up" at all. It's signing away your humanity, which is what you've evidently done.
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