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Old 01-18-2011, 07:30   #1
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Accuracy Comparison - Mini vs Bolt Gun

How a Mini-14 can stack up against a bolt gun.
The Mini:
Barrel and action cryoed, AccuStrut, Muzzle break, Burris 2.75 Scout Scope.

The Bolt Gun: (Rem 700 SPS Tactical .223 out of the box)
With a Nikon M-223 3-12 X 42 SF BDC 600 scope.

Targets @ 75 yds. w/ Fed. 55 gr. FMJ (target has 1/2" rings)

Top target is the Mini.
Bottom target is the bolt gun.

Allowing for my older eyes and hands...you be the judge.
* Taking into consideration the vast difference in scopes!



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Old 01-18-2011, 09:12   #2
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You should have shot groups with both. I don't know which is best, since it seems that your shots were not consistent. But I like how your rifle looks. I am going with a Rem just like your but in 308 caliber. I already have the mini.
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:16   #3
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Using the center of each bull as POA for each shot, and overlaying them, you get about 2.5 MOA with the Mini, 1 MOA with the Rem 700 (discounting the errant 5th shot or whatever that is). Not surprising.

I do like the looks of your Mini.
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:22   #4
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Originally Posted by para38super View Post
You should have shot groups with both. I don't know which is best, since it seems that your shots were not consistent.
I agree. I like the idea behind the comparison, but it's hard to make a judgement based on what I see here. I don't like the look of Scout scopes, but I see how they'd be better protected from ejected brass. I'd like to know the cost difference in each set up. That would reveal bunches.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:16   #5
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I guess my point was that with equal scope magnification the Mini would/ could equal, or exceed, the accuracy of a factory bolt gun of the same caliber - considering the low magnification of the scout setup. Of course the Mini has been souped-up a bit and an improved bolt gun will out perform a Mini every time but... Perhaps there is no purpose in this comparison other than the mini deserves it's share of respect.

Next time I'll do five shot groups and install higher magnification on the Mini and see how it does.
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Old 01-20-2011, 19:12   #6
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Good idea, you get an idea of how good your mini shoots against a base line bolt of the same caliber. I may get out and try this with my Savage 223 against my mini's, favorite loads for each.
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Old 01-20-2011, 20:16   #7
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I like your thinking .I have beat a few bolts with my mini.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:10   #8
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Nice comparison,.....thanks for posting it!

Normally,.....a semi-auto rifle will NOT shoot as accurately as a bolt gun.
There are exceptions as shown here,.........
I think the Remy would outshine the Mini at longer ranges though.


Nice looking set-ups on both!
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Old 01-21-2011, 15:24   #9
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I guess my point was that with equal scope magnification the Mini would/ could equal, or exceed, the accuracy of a factory bolt gun of the same caliber -
Only if the bolt gun is seriously defective. In terms of accuracy, the Mini can't compete with the AR or any other similarly priced semi-auto let alone a bolt action in good working condition.

Perhaps there is no purpose in this comparison other than the mini deserves it's share of respect.
Nothing deserves respect, it is earned and as far as accuracy is concerned the Mini has earned NONE.

Next time I'll do five shot groups and install higher magnification on the Mini and see how it does.
Yup, groups tell a better story. How's this, shoot an entire box of 20 rounds at the same target with your mini. Give the barrel time to cool and give yourself a chance to settle down and focus of course. See if you can put 20 rounds inside that target circle. My guess your group will look something like this.

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Old 01-21-2011, 16:02   #10
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i don't want to start a pointless argument, but i just don't think what you are saying is entirely true. most modern minis out of the box shoot as accurate as many other semi-autos (excluding guns that exceed it in price). many posters have proven the mini as a 1-2 moa gun with some easy, minor modifications. i think that type of accuracy is reasonable for the guns intended purpose.

and if accuracy is so important to certain mini owners, why not buy the target model? i saw a guy in a video busting up a tiny rock at two hundred yards! the target is as accurate as most ar's and costs less than all but the super cheapos. this was ruger's product for those wanting competition style accuracy from a mini. i think the target has earned plenty of respect for accuracy, and seems do the job it was created for.

i'm no expert, and of couse all MO.



Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Only if the bolt gun is seriously defective. In terms of accuracy, the Mini can't compete with the AR or any other similarly priced semi-auto let alone a bolt action in good working condition.



Nothing deserves respect, it is earned and as far as accuracy is concerned the Mini has earned NONE.



Yup, groups tell a better story. How's this, shoot an entire box of 20 rounds at the same target with your mini. Give the barrel time to cool and give yourself a chance to settle down and focus of course. See if you can put 20 rounds inside that target circle. My guess your group will look something like this.

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Old 01-21-2011, 16:27   #11
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many posters have proven the mini as a 1-2 moa gun with some easy, minor modifications.
That's some funny stuff there. If they are truly MOA shooters then run cajun's MOA test. Lots of MOA claims with no real substance. Take a look at 67's accuracy fun shoots. Anyone posting any real MOA targets cept me, NO. Lots of talk and that's about it, talk.
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Old 01-21-2011, 17:48   #12
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i don't know...i've seen many targets in this range. now, if they are cheating somehow, i don't know for sure, but that could be said of most any accuracy claims not in an official competition. but i have seen many pictures of paper targets under 2". i assume getting under 1" consistantly is obviously extremely difficult for a standard mini.

but...

a target mini can acheive this level of accuracy, i'm telling you a saw a guy tagging a rock about 2" at about 200 yards over and over until he blasted it to bits. so again......if people want this kind of accuracy, why don't they buy the reasonably priced mini target? this rifle was designed to fulfill the wishes of those concerned with pinpoint accuracy. when you say the mini has earned no respect in accuracy, you seem to be ignoring the model that was designed for accuracy.

Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
That's some funny stuff there. If they are truly MOA shooters then run cajun's MOA test. Lots of MOA claims with no real substance. Take a look at 67's accuracy fun shoots. Anyone posting any real MOA targets cept me, NO. Lots of talk and that's about it, talk.
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Old 01-21-2011, 19:30   #13
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Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Lots of MOA claims with no real substance. Take a look at 67's accuracy fun shoots. Anyone posting any real MOA targets cept me, NO.
Hawkguy spoke of 1 -2 MOA. I agree with Hawkguy, a few mod's should get a typical non-target mini shooting at that level.

67's likes to shoot in the dead of winter. I do too, but the range is snowed in. A bit of a problem with the weather we have here at this time.

If Steve has shot targets under 1 MOA then by all means post one of them, and tell us how it was done. And if the target shot was under 1 MOA doesn't that demonstrate that the Mini can indeed shoot at sub MOA?

The standard by which a rifle should be judged to be MOA has been set by Molon, of AR.com; 10 rounds fired at 100 yards within two minutes. Not one or two shots, TEN rounds. This is the number of rounds needed to establish a true group based on mathematical averages.

Right now, I really po'ed I can't get to download and post a target or two I've shot . No outrageous claims, but my Mini Ranch shoots tighter groups than my M1 Garand and the M-14s Polytech I shoot.
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Old 01-21-2011, 20:10   #14
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I agree with the "standard" you cite for an "MOA" firearm.
Some guys will claim a "Sub-MOA" rifle because when the stars and moon were properly aligned one day and lady luck was in their corner, they got ONE three shot group that qualified. No mention of the other 80 rounds that didn't... The terms is thrown around pretty loosely.

The Mini is what it is...and we all love it for that.
But one can't compare the accuracy of the 700 to the Mini.
I'm not familiar with the Hogue on the 700- but we had a dramatic improvement when we dropped ours into a B&C stock. The Hogue is much nicer than the POS plastic crap ours came in, tho.

As far as the targets go, IMO I would consider the outside shot in the #3 bulls for the Rem a flier- shooter error (mebbe trigger pull) or ammo. The other four are much more consistently spaced than the Mini- at 1/2" to 1".

Nice sticks. Really like the looks of the Nikon glass- the BDC reticle ( have one on my Leatherwood CMR) is a nice feature.

Curious as to why you went with a scout setup on the Mini?
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Old 01-21-2011, 23:19   #15
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Like I said, come one come all, big talkers and real shooters alike. Put your Mini through the cajun MOA test. Then be honest with yourself and proclaim your Mini a true MOA rifle, a true 2 MOA rifle, or a POS.

Or you can do the Internet thing and claim, I don't have time and it's too cold, but my Mini shoots MOA with both it hands tied behind it's back .

If Steve has shot targets under 1 MOA then by all means post one of them, and tell us how it was done. And if the target shot was under 1 MOA doesn't that demonstrate that the Mini can indeed shoot at sub MOA?
Shot a few and posted a few, you will have to do a search to find them, or not, don't really care. Nope, my MOA or better targets do not demonstrate that the Mini can indeed shoot MOA or better. My Mini has had a few things done to it and It is really no longer a real Mini.
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Old 01-22-2011, 00:08   #16
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if people want this kind of accuracy, why don't they buy the reasonably priced mini target? this rifle was designed to fulfill the wishes of those concerned with pinpoint accuracy. when you say the mini has earned no respect in accuracy, you seem to be ignoring the model that was designed for accuracy.
Cuz the dam thing weighs over 10 pounds with good optics. Kinda defeats the purpose of the Mini (light carbine) don't ya think???
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:10   #17
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So,......should it be named "Mini heavy barreled bench Target 14"?
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:42   #18
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Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
So,......should it be named "Mini heavy barreled bench Target 14"?
Maybe, but the word "Mini" sure as heck doesn't fit!
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:57   #19
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Originally Posted by tobnpr View Post
Some guys will claim a "Sub-MOA" rifle because ... The term is thrown around pretty loosely.
Amen. I've seen guys on this forum post targets with their "1-1/2 MOA" groups, when they were actually 1-1/2" at 50 yards.

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
So,......should it be named "Mini heavy barreled bench Target 14"?
Or, the "Mini Target 14 That's Much Heavier than a Ranch Rifle and Also Longer So It's Not Really a Mini but We Didn't Know What Else to Call It" Mini.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:38   #20
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Originally Posted by higgite View Post
Amen. I've seen guys on this forum post targets with their "1-1/2 MOA" groups, when they were actually 1-1/2" at 50 yards.
Nearly all of mine have been 2-3 moa Mini's, at best!
A Target I had a few years back was a true 1.5 moa

Originally Posted by higgite View Post
Or, the "Mini Target 14 That's Much Heavier than a Ranch Rifle and Also Longer So It's Not Really a Mini but We Didn't Know What Else to Call It" Mini.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:57   #21
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Yup, groups tell a better story. How's this, shoot an entire box of 20 rounds at the same target with your mini. Give the barrel time to cool and give yourself a chance to settle down and focus of course. See if you can put 20 rounds inside that target circle. My guess your group will look something like this.



Then run the same test with the Rem bolt action, 20 rounds at the same target. Should look something like this.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:13   #22
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The target mini is still a mini version of the m-14 . My 12 pound scoped target mini is no where near the size of my scoped M1a. So it still is a mini 14 .
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:21   #23
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Call it what you want, but it's still a "Tank", maybe a Mini tank, but a tank just the same.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:22   #24
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how about kkina's research at accu-strut? brought old mini's from 4" groups at 100 to 1.5" with the strut. 1.5" still a grossly inaccurate rifle? its sounds ok to me. the new barrel in his tests average 2.5", reduced to 1.5" with strut. i'm sure the rifle had a few other adjustments like a trigger job, but they still seem to be very much minis. i think the guy seems very much serious about helping the minis accuracy & i don't think his results are bogus.
too many people confirm the improvemnt in accuracy he claims.

of course anyone can lie about results, regardless of what rifles they own & i'm sure many do.

no point in arguing anymore though really. you have your mind made up in this matter, based on your own experiences. nothing wrong with that. thanks for the discussion.


Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Like I said, come one come all, big talkers and real shooters alike. Put your Mini through the cajun MOA test. Then be honest with yourself and proclaim your Mini a true MOA rifle, a true 2 MOA rifle, or a POS.

Or you can do the Internet thing and claim, I don't have time and it's too cold, but my Mini shoots MOA with both it hands tied behind it's back .



Shot a few and posted a few, you will have to do a search to find them, or not, don't really care. Nope, my MOA or better targets do not demonstrate that the Mini can indeed shoot MOA or better. My Mini has had a few things done to it and It is really no longer a real Mini.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:30   #25
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actually, no i don't agree. it was what so many mini 14 owners have cried for....a mini with pinpoint accuracy. it comes out, and of course its not good enough, even though it does exactly what it was supposed to...compete with ar's accuracy in a mini platform. it is a bench gun, NOT a little light carbine.

surely there are guns that will meet your demands better than the mini...
but...they are going to have problems as well, just different problems. (ar's notorious jamming probs for example)

but, this thread isn't going to change your mind or mine. so..thanks for your opinions on the matter, i think i'll bow out of this one.

Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Cuz the dam thing weighs over 10 pounds with good optics. Kinda defeats the purpose of the Mini (light carbine) don't ya think???
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