M14 and M1A Talk M14 and M1A rifles - General Posting

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-27-2005, 21:49   #1
Full Member
Points: 6,184, Level: 51 Points: 6,184, Level: 51 Points: 6,184, Level: 51
Activity: 0.9% Activity: 0.9% Activity: 0.9%
Last Achievements
 
Luv-My-Mini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 103
I have been googling for days now and haven't found anything. Is there a resource that compares MV for 7.62 nato out of various barrel lengths?
Luv-My-Mini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2006, 16:45   #2
Full Member
Points: 6,394, Level: 52 Points: 6,394, Level: 52 Points: 6,394, Level: 52
Activity: 2.4% Activity: 2.4% Activity: 2.4%
Last Achievements
 
Creeping Incrementalism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 26
From what I remember reading from Springfield, about 150 FPS is lost in going from the M1A to the SOCOM velocity with heavier bullers, and about 200 FPS with lighter bullets.

On the web I found an old magazine article (from one of those websites that archives them) where someone took some bolt-action gun, fired some shots with bullets of various weights, then cut off a few inches and re-crowned, then took some chrony readings again. I'd say the results were roughly close to the Springfields in terms of percentage of FPS lost, though slightly greater. So I'd say Springfield is a little bit optimisitic.

Unfortunately, I don't have any links for you.
Creeping Incrementalism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2006, 02:49   #3
Full Member
Points: 11,756, Level: 71 Points: 11,756, Level: 71 Points: 11,756, Level: 71
Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7% Activity: 3.7%
Last Achievements
 
Tailgunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Whittemore, Michigan
Posts: 1,280
Due to the velocity variance caused by the difference in barrels/chambers (chronograph several rifles with the same barrel length and the same lot of ammo, and you will get a 150-200fps variance) it becomes very difficult to say becuse rifle 'A' gets xxxxfps with a 22" barrel than rifle 'B' will get xxfps less because it has a 20" barrel.
Further complicating this is tha the velocity loss/inch is non-liniar (although for the range usually discussed it's not far off), IE 12-15" may be 200'/" while 20-22 might be 30'/", 26-28 might be 20'/", but when you get out to 34-36 the difference might only be 5'/" while a 38" barrel might be faster than a 40". These numbers are for illistration only.
Side note, I personaly had a 26" barrel (30-06) that struggled to get to 2750fps due to a sloppy chamber/throat. Cutting it to 25" and putting in a tight 30-06 chamber/throat brought it up to 2995 with the same lot of ammo.
Tailgunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2006, 04:26   #4
Full Member
Points: 7,515, Level: 57 Points: 7,515, Level: 57 Points: 7,515, Level: 57
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 324
I have seen results from 3 different tests run on .308 rifles. One (a bolt gun, I think) chopped the barrel in 1" increments, and had a velocity loss of 100 fps going from 24" to 18", but lost another 200 fps (300 total) going from 18" to 16". (This is similar to another text done by a precision rifle mfgr, which said it was possible to get very close to peak .308 velocities in and 18" barrel.) Since this test controlled all variables and changed barrel length on the same barrel, this is probably the most impressive (and useful) test of differences due to barrel length alone.

A second test just compared a GI chrome lined 22" barrel and the unlined commercial Scout 18" barrel with 10 types of ammo. There was a difference of -178 fps, but this one used different rifles, barrel specs, and bore treatment (i.e., the chrome lining could have increased pressure and velocity, etc.).

A third test used an 22" M1A and a 16" AR10 with three types of surplus ammo (Hirtenberger, Radway Green and CAVIM) and recorded a velocity loss of 131fps, 141fps and 169fps between a 22" M1A and a 16" AR10. This one has lots of variables, and was on different rifle platforms, so it would not be appropriate to generalize from this test.

-- cw

Last edited by cw2go; 07-02-2009 at 04:07.
cw2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2006, 21:03   #5
Full Member
Points: 7,036, Level: 55 Points: 7,036, Level: 55 Points: 7,036, Level: 55
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 85
2500 fps with 147-150
2400 fps with 168 match
dchi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2006, 22:17   #6
Full Member
Points: 4,810, Level: 44 Points: 4,810, Level: 44 Points: 4,810, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 23
A coupla weeks ago I ran 2 loads from my M14 (Winchester) and SOCOM over the chrony. YMMV

M14
SA ('81) 5 shot average:2707

HSM 150gr Police load:2841

Winchester White Box:2790

Winchester Fail Safe 150gr:2658

Federal Tactical Urban 165gr:2679

Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr:2537

SOCOM
SA:2540

HSM:2703

Winchester White Box:2671

Winchester Fail Safe:2575

Federal Tactical Urban:2547

Federal Gold Medal:2433

I'll add more loads as I get time to do them.
edited to add more loads

Last edited by VA27; 12-07-2006 at 17:58.
VA27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2007, 20:04   #7
Great American
Points: 9,483, Level: 65 Points: 9,483, Level: 65 Points: 9,483, Level: 65
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
justinlemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 296
ive read that the 16" barrels of the socoms equate to that of a 300 savage in velocity. i dont know if that helps...or even matters
justinlemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2008, 23:57   #8
Full Member
Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 161
VA27-
Is that for a Socom16 or a 18" barrel SocomII?

By the way thank you very much for some real Chrono results. Lots of creative info flying about the 'net regarding the Socom velocity loss. I gotta get one of those dandy machines!
__________________
su, 2 minis, 2 glocks, buckets of rollies. Lots of Lee. SocomII (SA sucks)
totalloser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2008, 09:48   #9
Full Member
Points: 4,810, Level: 44 Points: 4,810, Level: 44 Points: 4,810, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 23
Mine's a SOCOM 16. The SOCOM II (with all the rails) is also 16". The Scout is the one with the 18" barrel. The load to use in the SOCOM is the HSM Police load. It matches the surplus NATO velocity in the M14.

In the real world, the velocity losses out of the SOCOM don't amount to much unless you're shooting past 5-600 meters. And if you are, just hold higher. Jeepers! You'd think it was the end of the American way of life just 'cause you lose a coupla hundred fps!

You guys gotta get out more. Go shoot a 45/70 at extended ranges. Then try a 30/30. Then pick up your SOCOM. See what I mean? No worries.

Happy shooting,

Bob
VA27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2008, 19:30   #10
Full Member
Points: 6,394, Level: 52 Points: 6,394, Level: 52 Points: 6,394, Level: 52
Activity: 2.4% Activity: 2.4% Activity: 2.4%
Last Achievements
 
Creeping Incrementalism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Creeping Incrementalism View Post
From what I remember reading from Springfield, about 150 FPS is lost in going from the M1A to the SOCOM velocity with heavier bullers, and about 200 FPS with lighter bullets.

On the web I found an old magazine article (from one of those websites that archives them) where someone took some bolt-action gun, fired some shots with bullets of various weights, then cut off a few inches and re-crowned, then took some chrony readings again. I'd say the results were roughly close to the Springfields in terms of percentage of FPS lost, though slightly greater. So I'd say Springfield is a little bit optimisitic.

Unfortunately, I don't have any links for you.
Since this post I made over two years ago, I have chronied my Socom II, and 150 FPS is lost versus a M1A using 150 grain bullets. The Springfield estimate is accurate.

Unfortunately, I had some issues with failure to extract, so I sent it back to Springfield. One of the changes done at the factory was a new bolt, and now the firing pin fails to detonate the primer sometimes, and it still fails to extract other times. I also got an extended top rail that goes over the bolt done at the factory, and occasionally the brass bounces off that and gets caught as the bolt pushes the next round into the chamber. The overall jam rate before I sent it in was about 1 in 60, and now it is about 1 in 50. Accuracy is a little better than the old Mini-14s. Overall I'd say the rifle is mediocre and would discourage anyone from plunking down the money on one of these, as they aren't cheap.
Creeping Incrementalism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 09:32   #11
Full Member
Points: 4,810, Level: 44 Points: 4,810, Level: 44 Points: 4,810, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 23
CI, Sorry to hear your SOCOM hasn't been 100%. Have you sent it back again?

I guess I won the lottery on mine 'cause it's run fine and been a hoot to shoot.
VA27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2008, 22:00   #12
Full Member
Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 161
I must be understanding the measurement wrong. I just did the transfer on my Socom II, and was surprised when the dealer measured the barrel, and sure enough 18". The end is recessed with a larger bore where the comp ports are, but it looks like only an inch of recess. Not to say it really makes much difference. Maybe there were more than one SocomII. I'll take a closer look when the waiting period is up.

Just got it back 17 3/4" from nose to tail, but the compensator recesses about 1 1/2". So the beginning of the chamber to the end of the rifling is about 16.5". In otherwords, I guess I goofed.

It shoots pretty well. Muzzle blast is not much different from the scout from the shooter's position. It's significantly heavier than the Scout. The rear sight diopter isn't as much of a handicap as I thought it would be, but it is still too large for my liking. The BDC is a nice feature. I doubt I could shoot better than 3" without changing the rear sight. The trigger is really nice, though. I am starting to think this wasn't such a poor choice of a rifle.

Incidentally, I am still a little shocked that anyone can go to the range with other m1a shooters and every one has had problems. I do not personally know of anyone who has had a significant problem with an m1a. Maybe I just know a lot of lucky folks! I wonder if their quality has recently gone downhill.
__________________
su, 2 minis, 2 glocks, buckets of rollies. Lots of Lee. SocomII (SA sucks)

Last edited by totalloser; 07-30-2008 at 19:41.
totalloser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2008, 19:54   #13
Full Member
Points: 6,394, Level: 52 Points: 6,394, Level: 52 Points: 6,394, Level: 52
Activity: 2.4% Activity: 2.4% Activity: 2.4%
Last Achievements
 
Creeping Incrementalism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by VA27 View Post
CI, Sorry to hear your SOCOM hasn't been 100%. Have you sent it back again?

I guess I won the lottery on mine 'cause it's run fine and been a hoot to shoot.
I'm even more ticked now because I just cleaned it after shooting about 300 rounds of S. African surplus over the 4th of July weekend, and the bolt roller fell off when I pulled the bolt out. Apparently the snap ring that holds it on somehow fell off or just disintegrated. At least the rifle can still function, as the roller can't fall out when the rifle is assembled.

But man is ticks me off that a $1850 rifle jams about 1 shot in 75 (I don't think it is quite as often as I mentioned in my last post). Not to mention the fact the black paint flakes off the stock after minor contact. My friend bought an M1A too and it jams at about the same rate, even after it came back from the factory for service. And I have to call Springfield, because they didn't reimburse me for the cost of shipping my rifle for service, as they said they would. Everyone I've talked to at the range has had to send their M1As back too because of defects more serious than mine. I suppose I'll send my rifle back for warrant service again, but maybe I'll wait a while so whatever breaks next can get fixed at the same time. I don't understand how the M1As ever got a good reputation. The majority of recent owners I have met do not have a good opinion of them.

If I didn't know any better, I would say that M1As were made in China by cross-eyed machinists and sold by the pound.

Originally Posted by totalloser
I must be understanding the measurement wrong. I just did the transfer on my Socom II, and was surprised when the dealer measured the barrel, and sure enough 18".
No, you must be measuring from the wrong points. Springfield's own website says 16 inches. It is just as long as the Socom 16, and they call it "16" for that reason.
Creeping Incrementalism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 23:08   #14
Full Member
Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 161
I stand corrected on the Springfield Armory quality. No longer impressed at all now that I own one. Poor metallurgy, and poor fitment of parts. Definitely not worth the money. Not if you expect good quality, anyhow.
__________________
su, 2 minis, 2 glocks, buckets of rollies. Lots of Lee. SocomII (SA sucks)
totalloser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2009, 10:56   #15
Full Member
Points: 3,161, Level: 34 Points: 3,161, Level: 34 Points: 3,161, Level: 34
Activity: 1.9% Activity: 1.9% Activity: 1.9%
Last Achievements
 
Dunedain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 10
VA27: Thanks for the FPS measurements on those .308 ammo types from different barrel lengths, it's very helpful! If you ever test any other types, please post the results here, as it gives a good idea of just how much speed you give up when shortening the barrel with various rounds.

How do you like your SOCOM M14? I've seen pictures and they look pretty slick.

totalloser: You say you've been somewhat disappointed with your Springfield Armory. Have you (or anyone else here) every tried a Fulton Armory M14? Or perhaps know someone who has one? What do you guys think of the quality of their M14's?
Dunedain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2009, 15:05   #16
M14 guy
Points: 29,671, Level: 99 Points: 29,671, Level: 99 Points: 29,671, Level: 99
Activity: 12.2% Activity: 12.2% Activity: 12.2%
Last Achievements
 
H2O MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by Dunedain View Post
Have you (or anyone else here) every tried a Fulton Armory M14?
What do you guys think of the quality of their M14's?
I looked into a Fulton build, but luckily I was steered towards Ron Smith @ Smith Enterprise, Inc. (SEI).

SEI builds M14s for our military and they build civilian rifles to the same high standards when time permits.
So far, SEI has built 4 M14s for me and the results have been nothing short of outstanding.
I also got more bang for my buck by choosing SEI over FA.
__________________
facebook.com/M14EBR.US
H2O MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2009, 21:20   #17
Full Member
Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 161
I have no experience with other manufacturers, but was EXTREMELY disappointed to find that none of the parts in my SA rifle were case hardened. And the fitment of parts made it hold the bolt open when fired due to the angle on the bolt hitting the hold open lever even with a full mag. Plus the front part of the op rod was impacting the reciever, dinging both. I have heard tales of the op rod sailing off the gun, and I suspect it is due to poor fitment at this point. The op rod is pushed sideways from the impact. Oh, yeah, and they stuffed the receiver into the stock with the fitment too tight, and it cracked the stock. It was really difficult to spot the cracks, but when it got a little oil in them you could see it following the cracks on the right side of the stock.

I corrected all the fitment issues, and it's an apparent reliable, accurate shooter, but I am SORELY disappointed that it won't have the resistance from wear that a properly heat treated rifle would. I've toyed with the idea of stripping it down and case hardening all the parts myself, but it is a HUGE hassle, that should have been done at the factory.

PS were I to do it over, I'd get an LRB rifle www.lrbarms.com I may do that yet, as my buddy want's my Socom (knowing what I know). LRB not only heat treats everything properly, they offer a receiver with two dovetails in the reciever and a picatinny rail to fit in it. This gives you the best scope mount I HAVE EVER SEEN on an M1A, and it won't have a bolt on the left side of the receiver to dig in your spine when the rifle is slung, like most m1a scope mounts do.
__________________
su, 2 minis, 2 glocks, buckets of rollies. Lots of Lee. SocomII (SA sucks)

Last edited by totalloser; 02-24-2009 at 21:30.
totalloser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2009, 14:35   #18
Registered Member
Points: 2,521, Level: 30 Points: 2,521, Level: 30 Points: 2,521, Level: 30
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
I'm a newbie

Hi guys:
Just wanted to post my 2 cents. I have an M1A National match that was built by the custom shop at Springfield Armory about 15 years ago. I have literally run thousands of rounds through it. Although it no longer will hold sub-MOA groups it will shoot 1 MOA groups with my special recipe. I have only broke it down completely once for a full servicing. It has never done anything but operate flawlessly and it ALWAYS hits what it is aimed at On a scale of 1 to 10 I rate this firearm an 11
Col Confuzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2009, 13:09   #19
Full Member
Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39 Points: 3,851, Level: 39
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 161
Welcome!! Your 2cents is identical to what mine would have been before buying my Socom. I am not new to m1a's I have a couple buddies that have had m1a's for about... I guess about 15 years. One a NM with a bedded stock bdc/ranging scope etc, the other a service style. These rifles' quality is what led me to my purchase. I think things have changed at SA.

Incidentally, an easy way to see if your parts are case hardened it to nick a small part (other than the barrel) with a file. If it nicks, it's not case hardened, as the case hardening will be harder than the file.

My chagrin is due to the fact that if all the parts are case hardened, you can't wear it out. The barrel may wear out, but then you can rebarrel. Quality of yore. Machines to built a lifetime- or many lifetimes.
__________________
su, 2 minis, 2 glocks, buckets of rollies. Lots of Lee. SocomII (SA sucks)
totalloser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2010, 07:18   #20
Full Member
Points: 3,113, Level: 34 Points: 3,113, Level: 34 Points: 3,113, Level: 34
Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8% Activity: 0.8%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by VA27 View Post
CI, Sorry to hear your SOCOM hasn't been 100%. Have you sent it back again?

I guess I won the lottery on mine 'cause it's run fine and been a hoot to shoot.
X2 On That, Over!
Longhorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2010, 09:48   #21
Full Member
Points: 1,633, Level: 23 Points: 1,633, Level: 23 Points: 1,633, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
CPTKILLER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Posts: 30
Thumbs up NutNFancy M1A SOCOM II Review

At the end of the day, a range report beats all. I have watched this and enjoy this video. Go to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLMV8n_tW-A

He has a lot of fun and from I have seen compared to other assault rifles, excellent accuracy and results with this rifle. Like they say here, back in the day, I wish I would have had one in Vietnam. It is a great rifle.
__________________
CPTKILLER
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Give me an army of West Point grads and I win a battle, give me a handful of Texas Aggies and I'll win a war.
George S. Patton
CPTKILLER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 13:06   #22
Full Member
Points: 10,718, Level: 68 Points: 10,718, Level: 68 Points: 10,718, Level: 68
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Mannlicher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 370
With my older M1A SOCOM 16, I showed 2550 fps for Portuguese mil surp, the last time I checked.

My SOCOM is a LOT louder than the one in the video.
I use the same optics though.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

The Bonnie Blue, may she proudly wave forever

Last edited by Mannlicher; 09-06-2010 at 13:11.
Mannlicher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2011, 21:15   #23
Full Member
Points: 3,161, Level: 34 Points: 3,161, Level: 34 Points: 3,161, Level: 34
Activity: 1.9% Activity: 1.9% Activity: 1.9%
Last Achievements
 
Dunedain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 10
It's really interesting how only about 150 fps is being lost by going to a 16 inch barrel on the M14 and semi-auto variants. Still leaving the .308 with plenty of punch, but making the M1A's with these shorter barrels easier to maneuver in close quarters. For really reaching out, you want the full barrel length, but from close to medium range, it will work great with the 16 inch barrel for most things.
Dunedain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 04:46   #24
M14 guy
Points: 29,671, Level: 99 Points: 29,671, Level: 99 Points: 29,671, Level: 99
Activity: 12.2% Activity: 12.2% Activity: 12.2%
Last Achievements
 
H2O MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by Dunedain View Post
It's really interesting how only about 150 fps is being lost by going to a 16 inch barrel on the M14 and semi-auto variants. Still leaving the .308 with plenty of punch, but making the M1A's with these shorter barrels easier to maneuver in close quarters. For really reaching out, you want the full barrel length, but from close to medium range, it will work great with the 16 inch barrel for most things.
Information I've been able to gather:

The 16.25" barrel will deliver approximately 140 less FPS than a 22.0" barrel.
The 16.25" barrel delivers about 40 FPS less than the 18.0" barrel.

__________________
facebook.com/M14EBR.US

Last edited by H2O MAN; 04-05-2012 at 13:44.
H2O MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 12:22   #25
Full Member
Points: 3,161, Level: 34 Points: 3,161, Level: 34 Points: 3,161, Level: 34
Activity: 1.9% Activity: 1.9% Activity: 1.9%
Last Achievements
 
Dunedain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 10
Thanks for the info. So unless you're going with the full length 22 inch barrel, you might as well just go right to 16.25 inches, not much point of anything in between. Unless maybe the shooter wants to load high pressure ammo and can get more out of the 18 inch barrel than just 40 fps higher. But in that case, the 22 inch barrel would be the best choice most of the time (unless the shooter really wants to keep the rifle more compact), because it can benefit the most from such hot ammo.
Dunedain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:00.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
All information is copyright by Perfectunion.com unless already under copyright.

This site is Gunny Approved