Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2011, 17:26   #1
Banned
Points: 1,625, Level: 23 Points: 1,625, Level: 23 Points: 1,625, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: STATE OF DISCOMBOBULATION
Posts: 258
Sheepdogs and Weasels

Howdy all,

I'm involved in a discussion on another forum that has brought up some great points for consideration. I will post the Original Post and my replies to see where the discussion goes:


Lately, I've been really interested in what the opinions are of military personnel and the general law enforcement community regarding armed citizens. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone that works in any of these fields so the only source I have for information is the internet, which as we all know, has to be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, while pondering this question, I recently came across a thread in a forum regarding the idea of sheepdogs. Take a look:

"I have read the essay on sheep, sheepdogs and wolves and have pondered long and hard over it. And while I agree with the basic premise, I believe there is one major factor/animal left out. The animal that I refer to as the "weasel".

The weasel is a non law enforcement, non military person who is sure they are a sheepdog. They are mostly concealed carry permit holders that believe that it is there job to save the helpless sheep from themselves. They possess false courage in the form of Smith and Wesson, Glock, Wilson Combat, etc. They have the best custom made Don Hume leather gear, dress in 5.11 clothing and go to Thunder Ranch and Blackwater on their vacations. They refer to the general public as "sheeple"and themselves as sheepdogs, wearing sheepdog logo clothing. You can usually find them posing in front of their mirrors with a perfectly blued and polished firearm of some sort salivating about the day they get to save the world... like Ralphy and his Red Ryder BB gun in A Christmas Story. They brag about all their friends who are LEO and Miltary. They like to think they are one of us.... they are not. There is a big difference between the weasel and the sheepdog. It is the sheepdogs JOB to protect the sheep. If he fails, he is either dead or resigned to the livingroom rug to live out his days, which to the sheepdog is worse than death. He protects the sheep knowing full well that his equipment is not on the par of the wolf, but still he does it because that is his nature. He at times wishes it wasn't.

The real difference between a sheepdog and a weasel.... When a sheepdog is off duty he will tell you that he isn't getting involved in any incident, he is off duty and he isn't paid to get involved. But in the end, when faced with it, he does... against all logic. He can't help it. It is his nature, good or bad. A weasel dreams of the day when he can get involved and become the hero. But when faced with a life or death situation, he runs because the reality is not what his fantasies are. Or worse.... he becomes involved and makes matters worse due to him being overzealous.

In my opinion you are not a sheepdog until you have faced the wolf, was scared ****less and did your job anyway. Any LEO who has been on the job for a few years has faced this numerous times. A weasel never has and probably never will because they have the choice not to.

I know this will probably rub some people the wrong way. If you are one of those people.... sorry to say, but you just may be a weasel, no matter how much you'd like to think you are a sheepdog."

Now, this is a straight quote, from a public internet forum and I'm not naming any names so I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong by pointing it out on another forum, I just wanted to get some opinions on this. Personally, I feel that this a pretty gross generalization of any "civilian" who is armed and also enforces a negative stereotype. I know this is not the opinion of every law enforcement officer but if you read the entire thread you'll see that there are others that agree with this statement and none that actively disagree. But the most interesting thing about it to me is the fact that this type of thinking turns everything in an "us vs. them" situation, meaning armed citizens vs. law enforcement when it should be armed "good guys" vs. armed "bad guys" or something of the sort. It's also interesting that to "them" (again, law enforcement) the label of sheepdog can only be applied to someone who is in the law enforcement community or the military...everyone else is a wannabe "weasel". Anyway...this topic has of course been discussed before I just think that this particular statement was very interesting and very revealing so I thought I'd share. Stay safe out there.
My First Reply:

Interesting topic.

While I detect a fair smattering of arrogance from the original post, I also detect a level of disdain from the population here.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but sometimes the truth hurts. I can understand where the author is coming from, but I don't always agree with it. Admittedly we have way too many people that think they are the savior of society because they carry a gun. The CCW Permit no more prepares you to hold a man in your arms as he takes his last dying breath, knowing you are the cause of his demise, as pinning on a badge gives you superhuman powers.

We also have, both LEO and CCW Holder, that are afraid to do what needs to be done and will look for ways to not shoot, when shooting is the only acceptable answer. We have been conditioned to believe that killing another of our species is unnatural. I don't agree with that. I think that killing another of your species, animals do it all the time by the way, can be either natural or learned. Sort of a conditioned behavior if you will. I've heard too many people say that they will do anything to not shoot another person to think they would do anything but shoot. Those people would be better served by leaving their guns at home and investing in pepper spray.

I hate the use of animal analogy to describe human behavior. Being that we are humans, and supposedly elevated above animals, it seems demeaning to me. Lots of people will run when their life is on the line. I've seen it, and even done it. Others will stand, and it may not be who you think it is that stands. The thing is, one day you may stand, and the next day you may not. I've done both. The conundrum is when to stand and when to run. Nobody knows what they will do until the brown stuff hits the high speed rotating thing.

I think society has covered man's real being with political correctness and manners to the point that we have forgotten how to be feral, to our detriment. I say detriment because when one meets a feral human, wolf to you animal analogist, he or she needs to be as feral as the feral human. If we spend too much time denying, hiding, and covering that up it will not be at our beck and call when we need it. I long ago made the decision that not only could I kill another human being, but that I could live with myself even if convicted and sentenced to prison. I wonder how many badge wearers and CCW Holders have done the same?

I'm going back among the feral humans, as that is where I am most comfortable. Genteel society is not for me. I can talk with and understand a murderer, rapist, armed robber, or drug dealer far better than I can understand some insurance broker whose kid needs braces and thinks the TV being out on Super Bowl Sunday is a life threatening emergency. far too many people carry a gun as a talisman, and are ill prepared to face a feral human. Some manage to rise to the situation presented, but many don't.

I'm sorry if this is a thread drift, but this is where my thoughts have gone after reading the comments in this thread.

Biker
My Second Reply:

To piggyback on what Dev has said, sometimes you have the ability and sometimes you don't. This can be a situational or day to day thing. How one responds in one situation is an indicator, but is by no means definative proof, of how one will respond in a future situation. That is why we don't really know how we will respond until we do.

Lots of folks like to think they will have nerves of steel and be cool, calm, and collected. I can tell you from personal expirience that urine is warm, bile in your throat burns, and adrenaline causes shaking so bad that one can't light a cigarette after such an event. That doesn't sound like any expirience I want to revisit, as I'm not that psychologically unstable, nor do I have some wierd sexual fetish that encompasses those things.

Now before anyone thinks I'm advising that one go looking for danger, let me assure everyone I'm not! I will just note that those that have faced danger before, similar to whatever danger they are facing at the moment of crisis, are better prepared to deal with it based on past expiriences to draw knowledge from. This means, depending upon the crisis, that the LEO, Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Paramedic, ER Physician, or Plumber is better equiped to deal with the crisis at hand than the "average" person. I put Plumber in there because a broken water line is a crisis to me, and I don't know how to solve it.

Also, while many people go to the gun range and shoot, how many really train? Of all the defensive gun owners, how many take specialized or advanced training? Pretty darn few from what I have seen. Against your average felon type the average civilian with some defensive tools and a modicum of mindset will generally fare alright. When they meet the true predator they don't fare so well. How does one distinquish from a average predator and a true predator? The average predator will try to survive. The true predator will take your handcuffs and put one on his wrist and one on your's and with a grin say, "This is going to get interesting." He will also push the issue just to see what happens, live or die.

Very few people make the hair on the back of my neck stand up given my background in corrections. I can say that I have had the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and all I could think was, "Mommy, I want a bigger gun if I ever meet this MF'er in a dark alley." This has led me to accuracy, as I need to put the bullets where they need to go, using the most powerful and biggest weapon I can control, while trying to get off the line of attack. Along with that, one has to accept, I believe, death. I have accepted that I may very well die, but I don't go putting myself in to situations where that is the likely outcome. I have also resolved myself to taking out my attacker. In short taking the fight to them, in a manner of speaking. I will be as nice as one allows me to be, but when you come to me with malice, don't be suprised if I respond in kind with a snarl on my lips.

I am not endorsing vigilantism, but when that moment is reached where one has no other option, that one should carry the fight to the attacker. This is contrary to the "defensive mindset" that many have. This is also where the LEO, Soldier, or Marine is head and shoulders above the average gun packing permit holder. They are duty bound to go forth and seek that aggressor, and have to use aggressive tactics to do so. That leads to a change in the mindset and a different response than Joe Blow Concealed Weapons Permit Holder. I think this is some of what the original post was alluding to. Very few defensive pistol packers are willing to unleash their animal, and go to great legnths to suppress it. As I noted before, against the "average" felon this is fine, but not so fine against a true predator.

I have clear cut lines and responses already drawn out. Some of them are to flee. Others are to watch and summon help, and a certain few are responded to in only one manner. Yes, I have used all of these responses, but fortunately the actions stopped with my producing a weapon so I was not forced to carry out my initial response, although I was in the act of doing so each time. I have also been told, "I know you would shoot, and probably kill me." As to the legalities of each of these actions, that was the least of my concerns after that line was crossed. My only interest is in stopping the act, and I am of the Jesuit School of Thought, "The end justifies the means."

Take care and stay safe,

Biker
Link to the original discussion:

On Sheepdogs and Weasels

Biker
BikerRN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2011, 17:47   #2
Force of nature
Points: 828, Level: 15 Points: 828, Level: 15 Points: 828, Level: 15
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
BigAndy1966's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The belly of the beast
Posts: 2
I'm not a cop. I never dreamed of being a policeman, I am not a firefighter. I have in the past and will continue to get involved in situations not because I am brave or looking to be a hero, but its the right thing to do.Too many people die because there is no one strong enough to swallow the fear, roll up their sleeves, and wade in to help. I had a friend whose sister was brutally raped and murdered, I am sure she screamed for hours while this went on but too many people shut their windows and closed the curtains in terror because it wasn't their problem. At the end of the day you have to look at the man in the mirror and ask yourself "did I do the right thing?"

Last edited by BigAndy1966; 04-12-2011 at 18:14.
BigAndy1966 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2011, 14:31   #3
Odd Pachyderm thingy
Points: 13,533, Level: 75 Points: 13,533, Level: 75 Points: 13,533, Level: 75
Activity: 14.4% Activity: 14.4% Activity: 14.4%
Last Achievements
 
Mr. Snuffalupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: someplace sunny
Posts: 1,296
Originally Posted by BigAndy1966 View Post
I'm not a cop. I never dreamed of being a policeman, I am not a firefighter. I have in the past and will continue to get involved in situations not because I am brave or looking to be a hero, but its the right thing to do.Too many people die because there is no one strong enough to swallow the fear, roll up their sleeves, and wade in to help. I had a friend whose sister was brutally raped and murdered, I am sure she screamed for hours while this went on but too many people shut their windows and closed the curtains in terror because it wasn't their problem. At the end of the day you have to look at the man in the mirror and ask yourself "did I do the right thing?"

+1

I couldn't stand idle during a life or death situation IF I have the ways and means of bringing the situation to a swift conclusion.

ie: I'm no firefighter but if I see a burning car on the side of the road with a person inside - I'll deploy the 10 pound fire extinguisher in my vehicle ( the fire ex is required by my company) and at least TRY to get the poor devil out.

OR

If I see a violent act being performed on a defenseless person and I can stop it... I will. If it's beyond my ability to stop -I will observe and be a good witness.
__________________
Ua Mau ke Ea o ka ʻĀina i ka Pono

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Mr. Snuffalupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2011, 17:00   #4
NS2
Simple is Good
Points: 870, Level: 15 Points: 870, Level: 15 Points: 870, Level: 15
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
NS2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Southern, NH
Posts: 18
Names mean nothing. I stand by my responses on the original post.

If you haven't been there, you have no idea, if you have been there, you know it won't be the same next time.

What someone calls you is not relevant when you're fighting for your life.
NS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 16:49   #5
Full Member
Points: 566, Level: 11 Points: 566, Level: 11 Points: 566, Level: 11
Activity: 3.3% Activity: 3.3% Activity: 3.3%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 149
bs, most cops go their entire carreer and never face an armed encounter, except maybe as a pack of half a dozen or more, guns out and armor on, serving a warrant on an unsuspecting felon, often at 4 in morning, running in on the guy when he's in bed. or getting a warning on the radio, and sticking a gun in the guy's face before he knows anything is wrong, other than a traffic stop, etc.
whoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 20:47   #6
Troll Fister
Points: 875, Level: 15 Points: 875, Level: 15 Points: 875, Level: 15
Activity: 1.4% Activity: 1.4% Activity: 1.4%
Last Achievements
 
Xylob the destroyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: in a wooden crate
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by whoa View Post
bs, most cops go their entire carreer and never face an armed encounter, except maybe as a pack of half a dozen or more, guns out and armor on, serving a warrant on an unsuspecting felon, often at 4 in morning, running in on the guy when he's in bed. or getting a warning on the radio, and sticking a gun in the guy's face before he knows anything is wrong, other than a traffic stop, etc.

we know you are speaking from experience on this one... in fact, this is the only statement you've made since you returned that I actually belive you really know anything about, Convict Davis.
Xylob the destroyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:41.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
All information is copyright by Perfectunion.com unless already under copyright.

This site is Gunny Approved