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View Poll Results: Hit the Target!
308 9 56.25%
30-06 3 18.75%
.223 0 0%
.243 0 0%
7.62x54R 1 6.25%
.50BMG 1 6.25%
7MM Rem. Mag 0 0%
Other...please state 5 31.25%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2007, 14:03   #1
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Exclamation Best Sniper Round/

Lets see what experts say to this personally, I stick with 308!
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Old 05-17-2007, 15:43   #2
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Question

Is there a best round for all conditions? What if over-penetration needs to be limited or contained? What if you need to reach a long distance target through light armor, glass, plywood, etc.?

I suppose that somewhere in between lies the 7.62 Nato (.308) and for best "all-around" I would choose that.

It would not be my first choice in a crowded situation where peripheral damage was unacceptable nor if there was a need to reach out and touch someone in a helmet and vest from 3/4's of a mile away.

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Old 05-17-2007, 16:48   #3
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30-06, classic sniping round, 1100yd capable mild recoil.
308, the replacment for the 30-06, 900yd potental.
Advantage to the 308 as it's a current military round.
223, what a waste of good brass, 300yd wounder
243, dose't have the down range HP, maybe good for 400yd work
7.62x54R, another 308/30-06 class cartridge (as is the 7.92x57, 303 Brit, 7.7x58 Arasaka)
50 BMG, excelant long range preformance, 2500yd potential but excessive noise and recoil.
7mmRem Mag, might hold it's own aganst a 30-06 on a calm day, but once the wind picks up and the marage starts to twist...................., than it falls flat on it's face.
Other: 338 Lapua and 408 Chyanne Tactical both slot nicely between the 30-06 and the big 50, both in terms of range and recoil.
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Old 05-17-2007, 17:31   #4
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It's not that I would know this based on personal experience (having never been a sniper--so, apologies to all the TRUE snipers out there), but I just finished two books about Carlos Hathcock, the famous Marine sniper in Viet Nam. He did use .30-06 in some of his rifles, but I believe his most commonly used caliber was .300 Win mag, the reason being that it has better ballistics and wind-bucking capabilities than .308, when you're trying to make a long range shot.
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Old 05-17-2007, 19:52   #5
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Tailgunner, +1 on the .408 Chey Tac.
That is one impressive round, and weapon.

Other than that, I have to go with the .308. I did because you just cannot find a current tactical rifle chambered in -06, and because I prefer short actions. But that is me. I like the .408, and the .50BMG, but, I would not want to be the sorry bastard that has to drag either of those rifles all over hell's high acre...........ON FOOT. 30 pound rifle........trade you for a sign that says "please shoot me"

As for the magnum rounds...I have had them, liked them, but then, don't have them anymore. If you are truly a good shot, the .308 should work just fine.
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Old 05-18-2007, 02:51   #6
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Carlos used the 30-06 as his primary cartridge for sniping, with the big 50 pressed into service for some shots, at least on his first tour. I can't remember if he switched to the 308 on his second tour (often such choices have to do with "what's available" more than "what's desired")
He used the 300WM for some target match shooting (where allowed) but not for sniping.

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For the vast majority of sniping work, there is nothing wrong with the 308. It's only when the ranges get past 1000yd, or the targets get bigger, that the other choices come into play. Rifles are simply "tools of the trade", and you need to select the right tool for the task at hand IE: if most of your driving needs can be satisifed with a Escort (308), why use a F-350 (Chey-Tac) for your daily driver?
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Old 05-18-2007, 14:05   #7
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That was the point I was trying to make TailGunner. Lots of the big guns simply are not needed much of the time. Besides, were there really lots of shots past 1000 in Nam?
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Old 05-18-2007, 15:57   #8
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Originally Posted by Tailgunner View Post
Timlt
Carlos used the 30-06 as his primary cartridge for sniping, with the big 50 pressed into service for some shots, at least on his first tour. I can't remember if he switched to the 308 on his second tour (often such choices have to do with "what's available" more than "what's desired")
He used the 300WM for some target match shooting (where allowed) but not for sniping.
Tailgunner, thanks for catching that, you are right. I accidentally reversed the two calibers. I just went back to the book and confirmed: it was indeed the 30-06 that was used for daily sniping work, fired from a Winchester 70 rifle. The 300 Win mag was used for match shooting only, and is what he used when he won the 1000 yard U.S. championship at Camp Perry. As for the .308, this was first introduced into Viet Nam not long before he went home from his first tour in 1967, and was increasingly becoming the standard when he came back for his second tour. The rifle used was a Remington 700, also called the M-40, and gradually this (mounted with a 10x scope) became the standard sniper rifle in Viet Nam.

Verge, I don't know a lot about military history and so forth in Viet Nam (I was sort of like, not born during half of Viet Nam), but this is what the biography of Carlos Hathcock has to say. His ordinary range with his Winchester 70 (in 30-06) was about 1000 yards. The book said, that when using the M-50 machine gun in single-shot mode, he was able to make some hits at more than twice the range of his Winchester, so we're talking in excess of 2000 yards. However, making hits at such a range was very rare, and the book does not mention Carlos or many other snipers using the M-50 on a regular basis for traditional sniper work (partly because it had to be mounted or supported and thus was not super mobile). So my guess is that sniper shots much beyond 1000 yards would not have been super common, not an everyday occurrence anyway.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread, it's probably a valid point that the best all-around, general purpose sniping round up to about 1000 yards is the .308. There ARE hotter cartridges, of course. The .300 Win mag is a superior round ballistically within the same range as the .308, but that is not the only consideration in a sniper round. You also want something you can control, and the .308 has a lot less recoil. And there are even better rounds available recently. My understanding from watching the show "Future Weapons" is that one of the really hot long-range Barret sniper rifles right now is a based on a .416 caliber cartridge. I'd have to look it up to find the details. But it's easy to forget, when watching these spectacular shows about super long-range shots, that most sniper shots are still fired within fairly ordinary distances. And for that kind of everyday work, I'd probably have to agree that the .308 still gets the nod.

Last edited by timlt; 05-18-2007 at 16:10.
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Old 05-18-2007, 16:35   #9
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The 338 Lapua is a slightly shortened and necked down 416 Rigby round, that was co-developed by the British (and one of the Euro countries IIRC) as a long range sniping round.
The 408 Chay-Tac (Chayanne Tactical) was developed by "Lost River Ballistics" and submitted to the US military as a proposed sniping round.
Than there is the wildcat 338-408 Snipe-Tac that a number of the long range hunting guys are trying.
As a side note, if you open up the neck of a 300 Rem Ultra Mag to 338 (338-300RUM) you get the equil of the 338Lapua in a case size that you can easly find a receiver to fit (the Rigby case is quite large and requires a special receiver).

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I knew that we were in agreement on the 308 :-)
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Old 05-18-2007, 19:25   #10
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Hell yea .308

Side not Tailgunner, I got some more -06 brass for ya. I am not sure of the headstamp, but it has been fired once, from a garand. I picked it up off the range after the guy left. Next Thursday possibly?
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Old 05-19-2007, 10:03   #11
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Sounds good. I have some polished/unsized 30-30 brass for you also.
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Old 05-19-2007, 12:02   #12
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Although I agree that the .308 is still the best all-around choice for a short to intermediate range sniper, for the longer-range stuff, or serious penetration (punching through concrete walls, stopping car/truck engines, and the like), I still believe the .416 is going to be a serious contender versus the .50 though. It's actually a better penetrating round than the .50, while at the same time having substantially less recoil. Also, this round was a response to a lot of the bans/challenges to the .50, so it doesn't currently have any legal issues facing it, which means it's easier for the public to acquire rifles chambered for it in states that do a lot of gun banning.

Barrett offers their rifles now in the .416, which is necked down from the .50. The .416 has some advantages, including a smaller diameter, increased velocity, and as a result it has better penetration capabilities.

Here's a comment from Gunweek about Barret's plans for the .416: "Basically, Barrett Firearms Mfg. Inc. has chambered the Model 99 .50-caliber rifle for the new .416 Barrett round. According to the company, the .416 shoots flatter, faster and hits harder than anything available. Barrett expects to chamber its other .50-caliber models for the .416 by the end of 2006."

Here's a picture and write-up on their new model 99 rifle, available in both .50 and .416. The MSRP on this baby is $4000, which is actually their LEAST expensive large-bore rifle that I know of. Heh--I'd sure like one of THESE for Christmas!

One other interesting extra. I just was reading some stuff on AR-15.com, where they were talking about the rifles that the SEALs carry. A SEAL sniper gets the following "suite" of sniper weapons, which suggests some of the calibers they feel are important:

"The sniper suite includes the Mk 12 Mod 0 5.56 mm, the Mk 11 Mod 0 7.62 mm, Mk 13 Mod 0 .300 Winchester Magnum and Mk 15 Mod 0 .50-cal."



Last edited by timlt; 05-19-2007 at 12:07.
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Old 05-19-2007, 12:35   #13
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Originally Posted by Tailgunner View Post
Other: 338 Lapua and 408 Chyanne Tactical both slot nicely between the 30-06 and the big 50, both in terms of range and recoil.
+1 on 408 and 338 respectivley.

For a smaller caliber, the 6.5 Grendel shows promise. Will easily shoot 1000 yards, shoots flatter and has more energy at range than 308 due to better BC. Wiki has some good info on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_Grendel

also

http://www.65grendel.com/
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Old 05-19-2007, 13:04   #14
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I'm curious. Has anyone on this thread actually served as a sniper, or are we all just armchair-quarterbacking? I've already admitted I am; but I'd love to hear what a recently trained sniper in the service thinks about all this stuff. I'd especially like to hear their thoughts on the SEALs sniper "suite" of weapons.

Last edited by timlt; 05-19-2007 at 13:07.
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Old 05-19-2007, 14:37   #15
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Lets not forget one important thing here concerning the chozen round/rifle. The intended purpose. The .50 does not come out often for "soft targets" simply because it is not intended as an anti-personnel rifle. Here is it's full name;
Mk 15 Mod 0 (McMillian M88 PIP; Bolt Action Anti-Material Rifle, 12.7 x 99 mm BMG)
Yes, Anti-Material Rifle. It is designated to kill "STUFF", not people. The military does not care if, or that, .308 can or cannot go through an engine block. It is designed for "soft target intervention". Now, if there is a posibility that a head need removal, and an engine needs to be stopped, the .50 comes out. The only other time is when the range required is ridiculously far, and the .308, .338, etc, etc, just do not have enough grunt.
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Old 05-19-2007, 17:43   #16
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Other than being a ornary old fart, my idea of fun is sniping deer (soft targets) at ranges that would make a lot of people howl.
I trust my -06 out to about 600yd for quick humane kills, although I normaly limit it to 440 (1/4 mile).
I'm in process of building a "bigger thumper" for the 440-880 distances, even though it's capable of humane kills out into the 1200 yd range, I respect MY limits.
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Old 05-19-2007, 19:00   #17
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+1 on the "ornary old fart"
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Old 05-19-2007, 19:39   #18
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On the job training

Originally Posted by timlt View Post
I'm curious. Has anyone on this thread actually served as a sniper, or are we all just armchair-quarterbacking? I've already admitted I am; but I'd love to hear what a recently trained sniper in the service thinks about all this stuff. I'd especially like to hear their thoughts on the SEALs sniper "suite" of weapons.
I was not a sniper, but I was a PMI (Primary Marksmanship Instructor) in the Marine Corps in 1989. MOS 8531 (PMI) is what is called a "B-Billet" MOS, or secondary MOS that you need to hold in order to get promoted to Staff NCO or above. My Primary MOS was 0331 (Machine Gunner). I serverd in the Second Marine Division during Desert Storm.

From what I am seeing here, you guys seem to have a good grasp of the concept of basic sniping weapons and protocol. The .308 is the most commonly used and effective caliber used by snipers on the battlefield today. The .50 is used primarily in anti materials and extreme range situations. The US military does not field any other calibers in a sniping role. If anyone tells you any different, ask them what their credentials are and where they got their info.
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Old 05-19-2007, 23:55   #19
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Jason, as I wrote to another vet tonight, thanks for your service to our country. And any other vets on this thread. I just finished reading the two books about Carlos Hathcock, and it really makes me appreciate all of our veterans, past and present, more than ever.

Do you happen to know anything about the "sniper suite" (mentioned at the end of one of my posts above) that is apparently being issued to SEALs snipers? I'm curious why they are issued BOTH .308 AND .300 Win mag calibers, when these two would seem to cover fairly overlapping shooting situations.

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Old 05-20-2007, 11:28   #20
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Do you happen to know anything about the "sniper suite" (mentioned at the end of one of my posts above) that is apparently being issued to SEALs snipers? I'm curious why they are issued BOTH .308 AND .300 Win mag calibers, when these two would seem to cover fairly overlapping shooting situations.
Well, I really can't say anything with certainty about what the Teams use as I served in the Marines not the Navy. However, I do know that SpecOps do tend to have a lot more leeway as to their TOE. Pretty much whatever they need to get the job done, USGI or not, is what they use.

As for the .308 v/s the .300: Yes they overlap to a certain degree. However, The .300 enables the shooter to engage soft targets at an effective range out to 1500 meters. This is due to the .300's ability to accurately utilize bullets in the 180 to 200 grain weight range. These bullets retain much more energy at extended range also due to their higher ballistic coefficiant: longer projectiles per diameter. Also the .300 has a flatter trajectory due to its higher velocity.

So, the .308 is used primarily to engage all soft targets out to the 1000 meter range. It has an effective range (cosistantly accurate and reliably lethal) of 800 meters. This is seen as the practical operational limitations of this caliber. The .300 would be used in situations where extreme long range engagement would be necessary on soft targets. The .300 therefore would be a special circumstance weapon that would be employed based on operational needs.
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:02   #21
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It looks like that we have a winner .308!
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:23   #22
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Yep. And I would broaden that and say, with Chuck Hawks, that for general, all-purpose shooting work of ANY type where you need a "medium bore" weapon, be it hunting deer-sized and larger animals, sniping, target shooting up to 1000 yards, or etc., if you could only have ONE round in your stash to fulfill all those purpose simultaneously, nothing would do it better than the .308. There ARE better specialty rounds that would outperform the .308 at each of these individual tasks, but none of them would do as well at covering ALL these tasks as the .308.

You can actually confirm that in practice, this tends to be what a lot of shooters do, they vote for the .308 with their pocketbooks. Whenever you see posts such as what are people's favorite calibers, or what's in your ammo stash, or what's the one rifle you'd take if you had to head to the hills, it seems like something in .308 is by far the most common medium-bore choice (and .223 is usually the leader in the small bore category).
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Old 06-07-2007, 14:42   #23
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm? Missed this room somehow in my short time here. If I coulda taken the poll, it woulda been another vote for the 308/7.62x51 NATO. I love this round.

I was a bit unconventional in my choice of accuracy bullet for the round. My fav was the Sierra 30 Cal 155gr Palma Match with 44.0 Grains of AA2520 behind it in my Savage 110FP Tactical. After all, the slug was designed for the 1000 Yard Palma Match. Never got to go out past 500 Meters with it but it would do 1/4 to 1/2 MOA all day long at that range depending on what kinda day I was having. That was from prone with a Bipod, not a bench.

CR ><>
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:07   #24
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I have to say the 300wm or 300 win mag would be the best round for a sniper round. It reaches out past 1000yds way better than the 308. It is affected less by the wind. You can get great ballistic coefficients and push that past the range of 308. The 300 win mag with the proper firearm will be quite accurate out to 1200-1500 yards. Past that you need to go to 338 Lapua. Some of this is based on ammo availablility, they make some fancy rounds but you have to have ammo available to be able to shoot it.
I have shot plenty at 900yds, the 308 can't hold up to the 300 winmag.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:45   #25
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Originally Posted by Takeitfar View Post
I have to say the 300wm or 300 win mag would be the best round for a sniper round. It reaches out past 1000yds way better than the 308. It is affected less by the wind. You can get great ballistic coefficients and push that past the range of 308. The 300 win mag with the proper firearm will be quite accurate out to 1200-1500 yards. Past that you need to go to 338 Lapua. Some of this is based on ammo availablility, they make some fancy rounds but you have to have ammo available to be able to shoot it.
I have shot plenty at 900yds, the 308 can't hold up to the 300 winmag.
Well done on reviving this NECROTHREAD!


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