So I've done some research and have decided that my (new to me) Lee Enfield No4 MK1* in .303 Brit is nothing special. Great news
I can't get myself to dish out money into 're-militarizing' a rifle that I'll want to keep perfect, not get dinged, and be afraid to take out into the field. I've decided not to un-sporterize it, and to turn it into a pseudo-Scout Rifle.
My only worry is, how many inches should I chop the barrel? It is roughly 25.25" long. I was thinking about chopping it down to at least 18", though 16" would be sweeeet. I'm expecting quite a loss of range out of the .303 Brit, which I'm ok with, as long as it isn'doesn't render the rifle useless for long range. I also don't need a huge fireball out the end of my barrel. Does anyone know how to reload for these circumstances? Is there a rough guesstimate how many fps are lost with a 8.25" chop? Would a faster burning powder in a shorter barrel get the same velocity as a slower burning powder in a long barrel?
It's your rifle and your money; I'm among the folks who disagree with chopping and sporterizing milsurps, but it's a free country (for now, anyway).
Obligatory dissenting opinion out of the way, I would not go any shorter than 18 inches, for esthetic, ballistic and balance reasons.
The No. 5 "Jungle Carbine" had a 20.5 inch barrel, and Brit soldiers (not a wimpy bunch) complained about the blast. Even at 20.5", a No.5 looks mighty short.
You can ameliorate the fireball and blast to a limited degree by careful selection of powders and handloading, but you can't eliminate it. You also are not going to get back the velocity you lost (roughly 50fps / inch), unless you go to a lighter bullet, which you'll probably want to do for hunting anyway.
You might also want to "try before you buy" on the whole Scout scope concept. While it looks awesome on paper, it simply does not work for some folks (like me); others love it. You still have the issue sights, which are very nice.
Worst case, you end up with a fairly light, handy boltgun shooting an authoritative cartridge with very useful aperture sights, 10 rounds on tap and a couple of chargers in your pocket. It will handle most any task you need a rifle for.
Upon reading this informative article: SWAT Article BARREL LENGTH
I've decided to chop my barrel to 18", if I even do it at all. It's so difficult though, because I've now found on a couple other forums that my model Enfield is kind of coveted as a higher quality accurate rifle (being a Canadien "Long Branch").
Either way, I'm stuck until my Lee .303 FCD and Ram-Line synthetic stock get shipped to me from MidwayUSA.
I'm already a fan of the scout rifle concept. My Mini-14 is already set up that way. I just need to acquire an XS Scout Mount and a nice scout scope.
Capt, as an Enfield collector I hate to see especially the WW2 rifles cut and sporterized. I feel the same as PigBat, its your rifle to do with as you please. I have a Savage No4 Mk1*/3 that was FTR'ed after the war. I change it into a sporter stock and use it deer and elk hunting. It looses a bit of its accuracy in the sporter stock but is still plenty accurate. I believe it has something to do with the military full fore stock pressure points that put 4 to 6 pounds of upward pressure on the barrel. I have seen a few of the santa fe enfields that were nicely done and pretty darn accurate.
I have been perusing eBay lately, and have found 'mostly' complete stock sets, with separate forearm pieces available for sale. I'm thinking that, as the wallet permits, I may begin to slowly 'stock up' on stock pieces, bands, etc., just so I'll have them if/when I want to put this rifle back into 'militarized' form.
That being said, I have just received my new Ram-Line stock from MidwayUSA. It's much better, ergonomically, imo. The LOP is longer, it has a comfy buttpad, and it's lighter. The 'original' sporterized stock had a forearm 3" shorter than the Ram-Lines, so the barrel looked crazy long. It's not too bad now. If I find I don't mind the 25.25" barrel length, then I won't do anything permanent to it.
I'll have to do more research on the difficulties of re-installing and re-zeroing a front sight on a shortened barrel, and tailoring those irons to the ballistics of my own pet loads. Sounds like fun...
That Ramline looks much better than the ATI. Good call!
While more expensive, you might want to go with a barrel band front sight, rather than a ramp. Drilling your barrel for the screw(s) is a bit scary. You can sweat solder the ramp on, but I believe it's easier to properly align a barrel band sight, and more secure when you do sweat it on.
That Ramline looks much better than the ATI. Good call!
While more expensive, you might want to go with a barrel band front sight, rather than a ramp. Drilling your barrel for the screw(s) is a bit scary. You can sweat solder the ramp on, but I believe it's easier to properly align a barrel band sight, and more secure when you do sweat it on.
Thanks! It's wayyy more comfortable in my hands now. The only thing I worry about it how light it is. I have a feeling the felt recoil will be amplified. No problem.
I still haven't decided on whether or not I'm going to shorten the barrel. Any reasons for me to do that are secondary to more important issues. First, I need to bore slug the barrel and get an exact diameter. I'm hearing these barrels can be anywhere from .310-.312" and I really want to get a good fit. Once I do that I have to find a good supplier of bullets to reload, etc., etc. Then make sure this thing shoots straight
I''ll also need to save $$ and find a good used Leupold or Weaver. That may take some time.
Then I have to get the Clifton Mount attached (non-permanent) and mod the stock for fit. XS Sight Systems - Scope Mounts
So shortening the barrel will be probably the last thing i get to do, if I even do it at all. If so, I will do like you say. In fact, I was thinking about just reusing the factory barrel band sight, and just re-machining the barrel for it to slide on. Unless you think the factory sight profile/height will be too difficult to re-zero.....
Thanks thickmojo. I have an affinity for things built solid, dependable, and useful, and find beauty in the fact that those priorities stood above aesthetics, and sometimes, even ergonomics. I guess that's why I like older firearms, my dads old tools and my old C10
Anyways....the Enfield is coming along. Last weekend I dropped it off to get chopped down to 20"not 18" or 16". Cost will be $80-$100, depending on if they need to remove the barrel to fit in the 'vice'.
I asked the 'smith if I was stoopid for doing this. He asked how it shot, how the bore was, and confided that he had 'no love lost' for sporterized milsurps, as long as they were getting shot by shooters Neither of us are collectors. I left it with him and should be getting the call to p/u this upcoming Mon. or Tues.
I've received the Acraglas and XS Mount already from Brownell's (excellent customer service! went over/above to fix their mistakes immediately!).
I just ordered an inexpensive scope and rings from Amazon.com yesterday.
Just got back last night from my families BOL where we took our 4th of July vacation to do some selection cutting of trees. While there I added the XS Scout Mount and NCstar 2-7x32 scope to the barrel of the Enfield. This is how it sits right now.
I still need to take it to my dads to inlet the stock so that it all fits together.
***Sidenote: I got my barrel chopped and recrowned at Magnum Precision Gunsmithing @ 3828 N 28t Ave., in PHX. It cost me $80, which is fine.
My Rifle takes two screws. They lost half of them. That's right. I now have a new cheap shiny-ass Lowe's machine screw holding my rifle together until I can get down there and figure out what the hell's going on. I cannot find an original screw on eBay yet. Very unprofessional!
Here you go for Enfield screws. I'm surprised you found screws at a hardware store that work as the screws on the Enfields are some weird British thread pitch. Services
Hey Jeff F I just received my 'new' rear trigger guard screw in the mail from Evans Custom Screw and Machine. Scott was a pleasure to deal with. Thank you for the referral.
About repoing: We try to avoid confrontation all together, and be sneaky, like ninjas :lol: especially in AZ, where everyone and their mom is packing some kind of heater. We're actually known for keeping things under control, but since my driver's jaw was recently broken (unrelated accident), he's very vulnerable, so I've had to step up 'security' lately.
nice....thanks Jeff F. I'll check it out as soon as I can get indoors. I'm out repoing cars right now in the rain. The screw came from my dads huge collection of crap he just can't throw away, haha. I mentioned "Lowe's" only to imply the screw is newer and not from 1944, not blued, just phillips-head ugly.
Repoing cars, ha ha, my buddy Shawn and I did that for awhile back in the 80's in our late teens in the SF bay area. Oh man, we got beat up and shot at a few times. Gave it up when Shawn got a flesh wound from a cranked up bitch with a .38 outside a bar. Stay safe.
I've been noticing all the useless posts you've been making lately. It seems true that you really have "nothing to offer here" so why don't you stay out of my threads and go play at the kiddie table. We don't need you around here.
Ignore "Douche Tofu" he has zero experience, owns no guns, and has nothing worthwhile to add. He's just lonely, worthless, and needs someone to talk to :lol:
After cheeking the Enfield many times I noticed that the scope seemed a little off center, a little rotated. I flipped the rings and it looked right.
So I took the Enfield to BA today to resight it...
(5) 5-round groups were taken at 50yards under 2x magnification w/ handloaded .303. Bipod, no sandbags.
Pic 1:
The shots under the tape was my first group. Unbeknownst to me, the front optic ring was unwinding itself from the recoil, even under the pressure of the rubber Butler Creek lens cover. It was at this point that I broke out in a cold sweat. A 3.5" group at 50yrds was not going to work!!
The second, uncovered group in the pic (1.23") was actually my third group of the day. This was after the "fix".
Pic 2:
The two shots under tape were part of a nasty second group taken while the front optic lens began popping off after every shot. I began to get frustrated and almost packed it up for the day. Then, out of desperation, I grabbed some masking tape and gave the lens a couple of wraps, then replaced the lens cover. It seems to work, for the moment.
The two remaining uncovered shots are from groups 4 and 5, fired to zero the rifle after the "fix". My final group (1.57") put 2 shots through the same hole, with three in the bull.
I went home happy after this, too hot to try (or walk) the 100 yard line.
Now I just need to get some red lock-tite and put this front lense ring on permanently.
really nice setup! i've got a swedish mauser that i picked up almost 20 yrs ago when they were $85 at the gunshows with the plan of doing the same thing. ordered the ramline stock & scope mounts/rings, but never have went any further. i got busy with life for a few yrs & the project stayed mothballed, then when i pulled everything back out, the rifles were demanding a much higher price, so currently it has been reinstalled in the original stock.
since this is a thread on enfields, do any of you enfield guys have any old parts laying around for a no1 mkIII? i bought a 1943 aussie no1 mkIII (also about 20 yrs ago) & the guy gave me a "junk" 1918 brit no1 mkIII that had been a drill rifle. the firing pin/bolt head had been demilled & the safety assembly had been robbed along the way. i had planned on refinishing it as a wall hanger, but sadly it was in a garage fire 2 yrs ago & the wood ruined. i hate to invest much in it since its a non shooter, so some of the collector prices on ebay etc. are out of my range, so looking for cheap takeoffs. if i dont run across anything, i may disassemble it & part it out.
Thanks Leadpoison. Sorry, but I can't help you with the mkIII parts, eBay is the only thing I could think of. Just wanted to say your Mauser looks to be in great condition. It looks like an "un-bent" Mosin....kinda. Very nice!
thanks! i wish i had the hindsight back then to have picked up a few more of these. it was right before the first ban took place & a large selection was still being imported. this one is an 1898 dated rifle that looks brand new. at the same show i picked this one up at, i also brought home two really nice russian sks rifles for $89 each. should have picked up a few more of those also....
funny i should find this thread with your build as there is a twin to your rifle on a local classified site right now, minus the cut & recrowned barrel...
Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing! I bought No4 Mk2 Enfield's brand new in the mummy wrap for $75-85 bucks apiece. Could of gotten them even cheaper buying them by the crate at Traders gun store in Oakland.
Same with most other military surplus arms, Sks, Mauser rifles, Ak's and 35 dollar Mosin Nagant's. Those in the wrap Enfield's are going for $600+ these days with a premium for the serial numbers in the Irish contact range
At $75-85 I'd buy a few and enjoy cleaning them. I recently saw an in-the-wrap Enfield on backpage.com. You are correct about their current pricing. It has been sold, too
Took the Enfield back out to BA again, only for about an hour before I popped my first case head. Kind of surprised because this is once-reloaded, neck-sized only brass. Might be in need of a headspace check. Lame.
Looks like its shooting pretty good. Curious, what # bolt head do you have? When I started shooting Enfields one of the first things I bought was a broken case extractor. Its been used quite a few times.
Thanks Jeff, I'm not too disappointed in the rifle. I myself could do a little better in the accuracy department. It has a #2 bolt head. I've read that #3's are hard to find. I'll have to do some research on case extractors tomorrow...i'm out repoin' again, been running nights last couple of weeks
You can probably find another # 2 thats longer then what you have, they varied quite a bit. You really need to measure and see where your at. One thing you don't want to do is get the head space to tight. If its to tight you will wear the locking lug on the bolt. I like the Okie gauges because you don't have to disassemble the bolt and pull the firing pin to use them. Okie Headspace Gauges
Thanks for the link. I took a pic of how I would measure the bolt head. Is this correct?
A thought has just come to mind. The last time I had gone to the range, two weeks ago, a fellow Enfield enthusiast with an English accent at the bench next to mine had picked up some range brass in front of our benches. He was nice enough to hand them to me, knowing I was new to the Enfield game, and could use the expensive brass.
They were Sellier & Bellot casings fired from a rifle of unknown headspace. Realizing that chamberings differ between these old rifles, I FL-sized the S&B's, hoping I could then fire-form them and 'make 'em mine'. At the time I noticed that the necks of these casings were more 'rounded', ie, the transition from case wall to neck wall had a smoother transition. I think this was a major clue.
Anyways, in the picture, the 3 casings on the left are Remington once-fired, and the 3 casings on the right are S&B once-fired. Notice the unmistakable case-stretch mark on the S&Bs. I'm taking apart the remaing S&B loads and trashing the brass. They must've been fired in an Enfield with excessive headspace, rendered unreloadable. Hence the shooter leaving them in the dirt. The FL-sizing didn't help either...
I'm hoping I may still be ok here, as long as the case extractor I ordered works.
Thanks much for your time Jeff F.
Yes, thats the way you measure them. S&B brass is hard and pretty brittle. I have to anneal the necks on my S&B brass or they split after only 1 or 2 reloads. Heres a chart I found over at Surplus Rifles forum with bolt head sizes, theres a lot of overlap. If the bolt closes on a .067 and not on a .074 gauge the rifle is correctly head spaced.
Thanks for the chart Jeff. I'll see what happens on my next outing, using only my Remington brass. Currently waiting on my stuck case extractor to get shipped to me. I hope it works as advertised.
Tonight, I finally gave in to the urge to inlet the original sporterized wood stock on the Enfield. I grabbed a dremel, my stock, and an old tube of lipstick from my sister, and went to work. It took me almost exactly two hours, whittling away little bit at a time.
I'll have to weigh it, but it's definitely heavier. I like it much better; it feels like a real rifle now. The synthetic stock was nice and light, with good contours, but it just felt too 'hollow' for me. We'll see how my shoulder accepts the change.
It's been a very long time since this project was mentioned. It's like it just died on the vine. Having completed my No4 Mk1 Scout Rifle not too long ago, I'm wondering how this one turned out...
Hey 'Max...thanks for your interest! It has been quite a while. I still have the rifle. Don't shoot it too often, since the last few years kind of "programmed" me to conserve ammo. I'm sure the shelves have been refilled with gunpowder, but I haven't gone to check.
I have all of the reloading dies I need to keep her fed, have about 100 rounds with 5 loaded stripper clips, so I'm happy. Happy enough with her that I've moved on to making my other firearms nicer, like my 1969 Ruger Standard and my 1972 Model 71 Beretta Jaguar.
Do you have a build thread on your rifle?
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