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Old 08-09-2010, 13:27   #1
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Cartridges we can live without...

"Yeah, I know, we live in the age of diversity. We're supposed to have free choice in all things. That is well and good, but I think the manufacturers are offering us far too much choice in rifle cartridges. The more variety they offer the more costly the manufacturing and distribution, and guess who that cost is passed along to?... So I think it's time to cull the cartridge herd, and I'm going to give you a shopping list of cartridges that I think the major manufacturers should drop like bad habits".
Col. Craig Boddington, USMC-Ret.

Here's one example of his thought process... "With the .260's arrival I think American manufacturers should give up on the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. It is much more popular in Europe, and will (and certainly should) continue in European loadings. American loadings have long been anemic anyway, due to concern over potential use in aging rifles; to obtain anything close to the cartridge's potential it has always been necessary to either handload or buy European ammo. And that's the way it should be".
Col. Craig Boddington, USMC-Ret.

I agree with Col. Boddington in that with new ones coming along all the time, many share duplicate roles and many are obsolete. But, should they be discontinued?

Before I give you his full list, how about your thoughts on this topic?

If this discussion is redundant, I apologize. I'm new to this forum.
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Old 08-09-2010, 13:42   #2
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One man's redundancy is another's pet round. That said, getting rid of the 5.56 NATO would be first on my list.

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Old 08-09-2010, 13:53   #3
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Why the 5.56 NATO? Is there a better round filling this segment?
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Old 08-09-2010, 14:11   #4
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6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO. These are many calibers that can do a better job of than 5.56. Institutional inertia is what's keeping it around. And $.

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Old 08-09-2010, 14:26   #5
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Also what's keeping it around are the millions of surplus rounds out there!
Do you not agree it is an inexpensive and easily available round for sportmen's use; varmit?
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Old 08-09-2010, 18:43   #6
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just my opine the .243 win and 7mm-08 are newer designs that are of little or no practical use.
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Old 08-09-2010, 19:16   #7
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Originally Posted by Marlin 45 carbine View Post
just my opine the .243 win and 7mm-08 are newer designs that are of little or no practical use.
See, that's what I meant. I love my 7mm-08, but some don't see any practical use for a short action 7mm cartridge while some of us do

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Old 08-09-2010, 20:10   #8
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I think any cartridge based off the .308 Win. is exceptional due to its near perfect geometry. In my safe, I have a .243 Win., a 7mm-08 Rem. and a .308 Win. I'm selling the 7mm-08 because it's too "in between". Nonetheless, it is an excellent round possessing good long range accuracy with manageable recoil. The .243 Win. to me is the perfect Texas deer cartridge; long range ability, short action for quick and easy bolt cycling and very manageable recoil. My $0.02...

Thanks, jimbobborg and M45 Carbine for your input...
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Old 08-10-2010, 04:59   #9
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Devil Doc, you just kicked the beehive didn't you Anyway, I'll put my 2cents in, I think there are way to many .30 cals out there and to many compact magnums. example Rem,T/C,Ruger, Hornady all have come out with new .30 cals that "equal or surpass" the ballistics of a .308, now how many of you are going to trade your pet .308 for one of the new whistling wonders. Not me! The truth be known, its not so much these new cartridges as it is the new blended powders being used. Same with the mighty short mags, they do perform well and in some cases edge out the longer belted mags except they lose on the heavier bullet weights. These where designed so you could have the mag power in a short action, problem there is they pound your shoulder in a short light rifle, These days it's all about marketing and I just wonder, lets see now, the 6.5x55 swede came out in the 1896 mauser after a century it's still a far more superior cartrige than some of the stuff that has just hit the market. It would be nice to be able to see who's around in 2110.
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Old 08-10-2010, 16:21   #10
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Talking

buzzzz...buuuzzzzzzzzzzz...buzzzzzzzzzz.........
bquick! What was that you said? Can't hear with all these dad gum bees!!

Again, Col Boddington's example, just happens to be 6.5x55 Swede...

Here's one example of his thought process... "With the .260's arrival I think American manufacturers should give up on the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. It is much more popular in Europe, and will (and certainly should) continue in European loadings. American loadings have long been anemic anyway, due to concern over potential use in aging rifles; to obtain anything close to the cartridge's potential it has always been necessary to either handload or buy European ammo. And that's the way it should be".
Col. Craig Boddington, USMC-Ret.

You referred to the new propellants and that is what drives new cartridge introductions. I agree, but new case geometries are also necessary to better match up with these propellants. Therefore, new cartridges.

I feel many people are way too nostalgic about cartridges and misplace this feeling of loyalty as empirical evidence. Just TRY and tell an avid 30-06 shooter there are better cartridges and watch the fur fly! buzzz buzzz buzzz... You'll hear stories of how its been around for 100 years so it must be the best! Sort of like what you stated about 6.5x55 Swede... buzzzz buzzz buzzzz. Nevertheless,there is an economical component that Col. Boddington made that is hard to ignore and I agree with him.

Fact is, I think everyone should shoot what they like and to hooey with what others think. But then again, how else could I stir up be bee hive? buzz buzz... Oh, here's a way... I think we should ditch the following cartridges; .260 Remington, 6.5mm Remington Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum and (sorry bquick) 6.5x55 Swede.
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Last edited by Devil Doc; 08-10-2010 at 16:35.
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Old 08-10-2010, 18:09   #11
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It seems you don't like the 6.5 mm's at all D.Doc. but I have another cartridge I heard needs to be cannned and that's the .222 Rem, fortunatly I have brass aplenty for those antiques. And as far as a 30-06 goes IMHO it is probably the most efficent round going regardless of new case geometry. I would say the 06 will use any 30 cal pill availible and do it well and I don't think any of the other 30's can do that. I'm not against new stuff at all (love the 270 wsm) but I think the market place is full of the same mouse traps.
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Old 08-10-2010, 19:18   #12
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bquick! No, not at all. I actually think the .260 Rem. is a GREAT cartridge. Remember,these are Col. Boddington's points... I do agree with him that the 6.5x55 Swede is not a good choice unless you hand load. US manufacturers are cautious about putting full loads out that could be put in 100+ yr. old rifles. Instead, you get whimpy loads not at full potential. You like 6.5mm and don't have access to hand loads, get a .260 Rem.

As for 30-06, all I can say is... buzz, buzz, buzz. Not going there.
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Old 08-10-2010, 20:48   #13
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Smile

I thank that the 243 is the most under rated gun in the USA . It will be around when the hard kicking guns are gone. It is a gun you can shoot and shoot and fell OK when you go home when the day is over.
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Old 08-11-2010, 17:10   #14
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I agree, Squid,,, uh, I mean AABEAR!
I saw the X NAVY in your signature and couldn't resist. No offense intended.
Seriously, a .243 Win. here in TX is a great all-around cartridge.
If you hand load, there are endless combinations.
By the way, what was your rate/rank?
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Old 08-11-2010, 19:08   #15
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AAACK ! An endless debate. IMO "anything I can pick up off the battlefield and feed my rifle" is a good round. That said, there isn't anything in North America I can't kill with a 150/165grn/.30 cal bullet. Now I ain't going looking for a grizzly with it but if I bump into an unhappy one, I won't become dinner for him provided he doesn't just plain surprise me ! So, given my little fire team the .308 has the most utility. I love my .243, .223, and
06's, even seriously considering getting one of those sexy .260's. Nice thing about Rifles and calibers is you "can always play with a different flavor" to keep your interest up, and unlike wives they won't hit you up for "ali-by-money" and will let you back in from the garage !
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Old 08-12-2010, 04:29   #16
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Cartridges to get rid of huh? The overall most useless cartridge (IMHO) is the 223Rem/5.56NATO. If you can't do "it" with a 22 Hornet, grab the 22-250.
243 is highly over rated, and it's usage on game should be restricted to experanced hunters only.
Since we already had a 6.5 Sweed, there really was no need for the 260Rem (take that Ploddington).
Since we already have a "King of cartridges" in the 30-06, there is no reason for the 308Win/7.62NATO to exist.
All of the "short mags" can hit the dumpster as none of them offer anything over the cartridges they are trying to replace.

That ought to gore enough oxen and sacred cows for now :-)
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Old 08-12-2010, 18:50   #17
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NOW who kicked the beehive?
If the 30-06 Springfield is the "King of Cartridges" then why do snipers use .308 Win. and not 30-06 Springfield? Also, do you think in 100 years there have been NO technological advancements better than when the 30-06 Springfield was first used? .300 WSM vs. 30-06 Springfield... not even close.

As for the 6.5 x 55 Swede, I spoke to a guy from Hornady at the last Dallas Safari Club convention and he agreed with what Col. Boddington said; the cartridges are not at full capability. Therefore... whimpy. buzzz... buzz... buzzz...
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Old 08-12-2010, 19:53   #18
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Originally Posted by Marlin 45 carbine View Post
just my opine the .243 win and 7mm-08 are newer designs that are of little or no practical use.
I took my first white tail with a .243! I agree with Devil Doc. .243 is a great Texas deer cartridge.
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:04   #19
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A whimpy 6.5 swede kicks a 243's butt, so what!
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:19   #20
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Rifle Cartridges I use:

.22 lr
.223
6.8 SPC
7mm-08
7.62 NATO

Rifle Cartridges I want:

6.5 Creedmore
.338 RCM
45-110

I can run both shorter cartridges on an AR-10 lower. The Creedmore is for long distance competition shooting. The .338 is for bigger game, like Moose. The 45-110 because I want a Quigley Sharps

I would not get a .243 as my 6.8 handloads will do a better job on deer and I really don't want another bolt gun.

Jim
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:37   #21
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Originally Posted by bquick View Post
A whimpy 6.5 swede kicks a 243's butt, so what!
A bold statement...

Nevertheless, here is the link to the article and Col. Boddington's list;

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammun...ut/index2.html

.218 Bee
.225 Win.
.220 Swift
.222 Rem.
.222 Rem. Mag.
.225 Win.
6mm Rem.
.25-20 WCF
.25-35 WCF
.257 Roberts
6mm Rem.
.264 Win. Mag.
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser
7x57 Mauser
.284 Win.
7mm STW
.300 Savage
.30-40 Krag
.300 H&H Magnum
.32 Winchester Special
8mm Remington Magnum
.356 Win.
.348 Win.
.375 Win.
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:42   #22
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Originally Posted by jimbobborg View Post
Rifle Cartridges I use:

Rifle Cartridges I want:

6.5 Creedmore
.338 RCM
45-110

Jim
I recently purchased a rifle in .338 RCM and couldn't be more pleased. Surprisingly, its kick is less than I anticipated. I'm preparing for an '11 elk hunt and hope to schedule a moose and caribou hunt in coming seasons.
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Old 08-13-2010, 07:32   #23
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Have read the rifleshooter mag article, Boddington is somewhat biased in his opinions as all are we. Yes the 6.5 is an old cartridge for sure. The rifle I have is a battlefield pickup from WWII and was used by a Fench underground sniper that saved the life of a paratrooper that was a friend of my fathers. His C-47 was shot down and he and two others where all that survived. The frenchman held off some Germans allowing these soldiers to escape to cover. The frenchman killed several germans but paid with his life. That rifle is the only weapon the sarge had and he carried it for several days. My dad and the sarge are all gone now, but that story lives on. And I that swede, its still a marvelous shooter, I hope the kids will keep its legacy going. It's priceless!
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Old 08-13-2010, 09:42   #24
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D-Doc
They use the 308 because that's what the military issues them. Same reason they use the M(attel)-16. Not because it's good, but because that's what some buruocrat was bribed to accept.
Oh, and your 300 Wimpy Stupid Mag is dying already as real shooters (not writers paid by the gun/ammo companies) are finding no real advantage to it. It does nothing that the 300 WM hasn't done for the last 50 years, and the 300 WM does nothing that the 300 H&H didn't do 100 years ago.
IOW Ploddington is paid to sell new cartridges/firearms to the shooting public, and the only way he knows how to do that is to make you unhappy with what you already have (even if the new one is no better than the old one).

30-06, 1 cartridge 2 hemisphires (northern and western)
375 H&H, 1 cartridge 1 planet
Earth First, we'll mine the other planets later
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Old 08-13-2010, 13:49   #25
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bquick, I can appreciate the nostalgic aspect of this cartridge which you so elequently stated. However, the original premise of this article is which cartridges can we live without based on how they are offered by manufacturers... the 6.5 Swede is an absolute fantastic round IF bought in Europe or handloaded. Here, its lame. Agreed?
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